2011 Electric Bus Procurement

[BusHunter]

I found this, the bus has been in service for about 2 months. There is a rapid charging station that charges the bus every hour (!). This is how they run them all day.

http://www.newflyer.com/index/050214-battery-electric-bus

Yeah it seems they gave them the prototype bus until they could build Winnipeg the four buses. From what i understand the bus has a charging port on it's roof that somehow automatically connects during a charge which lasts 4 minutes for every hour of bus use.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/electric-buses-return-to-winnipeg-streets-after-49-years-1.2629788

New Flyer's main competitor in the electric bus market, BYD, was having trouble getting it's buses through Altoona testing which was delaying a bus order for 10 electric buses for Long Beach,CA. Then there was a controversy which said Chinese workers were being paid as little as $1.50/hr and the feds pulled the funding so that order was cancelled. There is another order for 25 buses for LA but nothing's going to be delivered this year most likely.

http://green.autoblog.com/2013/07/01/la-orders-up-to-25-electric-buses-for-transit-duty-in-car-loving/

Something that actually sounded kind of positive about the BYD bus is it's claim to get 30 miles on a charge. That's what there test with the MTA stated.

http://earthtechling.com/2014/01/new-yorks-mta-likes-its-byd-electric-bus/

There is another report out of Spokane,Wa that says they can get 155 miles on a overnight charge so they must have made the technology better.

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/mar/10/sta-giving-all-electric-buses-a-tryout/

So i guess New Flyer is just being cautious as no one really has a electric bus out of testing besides Winnipeg, but if I was them I'd be trying to delay to see if I could better the technology to get a higher range out of a single charge. Then I think they got everyone beat.

[Busjack]

This might work better.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2012/09/lco140h-20120916.html

That has nothing to do with CTA.

I found this, the bus has been in service for about 2 months. There is a rapid charging station that charges the bus every hour (!). This is how they run them all day.

http://www.newflyer.com/index/050214-battery-electric-bus

This apparently is the same model as CTA ordered.

However, since New Flyer says that CTA was the first order (Press Release), one would have thought they would have been delivered here first, that is unless Manitoba is testing the prototype (Press Release)

[Busjack]

Back to the correct thread:

,,, If the bus discharges at the garage how will it ever leave the garage?

That's what I figure, one in the garage and one in the field.

The field one would be necessary based on the statement about the Manitoba one:

Part of the consortium project also includes the development and testing of a rapid charging station. The en-route rapid charging station is located next to the Manitoba Hydro offices on Taylor Avenue where the bus stops for 4 minutes to recharge after every hour of operation. With en-route rapid charging a bus can stay in service all day.

If it were only a garage station, they would have to schedule or haul the bus back to the garage to recharge.

[MVTArider]

This apparently is the same model as CTA ordered.

However, since New Flyer says that CTA was the first order (Press Release), one would have thought they would have been delivered here first, that is unless Manitoba is testing the prototype (Press Release)

The one being tested on the Hydro shuttle is indeed a prototype, originally built in 2009 as an XDE40 demo and later converted to all electric. The only fuel used is for heating during extremely cold conditions. Here's a photo I got of it at the Hydro charging station:

New Flyer Xcelsior Demo SR1321 by TheTransitCamera, on Flickr

When I was in Winni a few weeks ago I heard one of the CTA Xcelsiors had just been completed and had been spotted out and about on trial runs. No livery or number yet, I assume they'll livery them at CTA to keep them under wraps until official introduction, but it does have the standard grey around the bottom and is otherwise white.

Winnipeg Transit is also getting four units, IIRC those will be built after the second CTA one is complete.

EDIT: Some members were reporting problems with the photo link, here's a general link to the image:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/13994685627/

[BusHunter]

The one being tested on the Hydro shuttle is indeed a prototype, originally built in 2009 as an XDE40 demo and later converted to all electric. The only fuel used is for heating during extremely cold conditions. Here's a photo I got of it at the Hydro charging station:

New Flyer Xcelsior Demo SR1321 by TheTransitCamera, on Flickr

When I was in Winni a few weeks ago I heard one of the CTA Xcelsiors had just been completed and had been spotted out and about on trial runs. No livery or number yet, I assume they'll livery them at CTA to keep them under wraps until official introduction, but it does have the standard grey around the bottom and is otherwise white.

Winnipeg Transit is also getting four units, IIRC those will be built after the second CTA one is complete.

EDIT: Some members were reporting problems with the photo link, here's a general link to the image:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/thetransitcamera/13994685627/

Hmm. Interesting. I wonder what's with the gas hose on the side of the bus? The charging station access panel should be on the roof.

[sw4400]

Hmm. Interesting. I wonder what's with the gas hose on the side of the bus? The charging station access panel should be on the roof.

Well, from what it looks like to me...

The "gas hose" on the side of the bus is actually the charging port for the electric batteries. The curved poles on the top are probably hydrogen being fed into a tank of some sort which makes electricity somehow to power the bus. Reading the top of the bus, it says "Renewable Hydro Energy", so this bus is Hydro-Electric.

[BusHunter]

Hmm. Interesting. I wonder what's with the gas hose on the side of the bus? The charging station access panel should be on the roof.

Trying to answer my own question, I came across a very interesting demonstration video from Red River College about the All-Electric NF Xcelsior. The charging technique is really ingenious, they just raise a pan to the overhead electric power supply and charge the bus much like a pantograph.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nZxP08ddMY

When you watch the video and see all the sponsors to the development of this bus, I guess it does make sense for Manitoba to get the prototype. Anyway if the bus fails in any way it's not far from the all it's sponsors and technicians involved in the project.

[Busjack]

Well, from what it looks like to me...

The "gas hose" on the side of the bus is actually the charging port for the electric batteries. The curved poles on the top are probably hydrogen being fed into a tank of some sort which makes electricity somehow to power the bus. Reading the top of the bus, it says "Renewable Hydro Energy", so this bus is Hydro-Electric.

Hydro electric or hydro as it is called by Hydro Quebec and Ontario Hydro is electricity generated by water power, i.e. dams. It is not hydrogen. For instance, cars in Ontario hit "hydro poles."

I had come to the same conclusion as you on the charging port, but BusHunter's video clarified it. I wondered what the "hoops" were above the bus.

The answer seems to be that it doesn't use a Nissa Leaf recharger, but the heat is still biodiesel instead of electric (New Flyer release).

[BusHunter]

The answer seems to be that it doesn't use a Nissa Leaf recharger, but the heat is still biodiesel instead of electric (New Flyer release).

Yeah I read that too, but I can't seem to grasp the concept of them needing heat now, it's summer. But maybe the video created May 14th in a colder climate does justify it.

[MVTArider]

Hmm. Interesting. I wonder what's with the gas hose on the side of the bus? The charging station access panel should be on the roof.

IIRC that line on the side was something to do with either grounding or charging. The charging is indeed completed via the roof though, it had a setup similar to that used by Metro Transit's LRT cars, with a small pantograph being raised to connect to the charging wire hanging over the top of the parking/charging space.

EDIT: Nevermind, I should've finished reading the thread first

[Busjack]

Yeah I read that too, but I can't seem to grasp the concept of them needing heat now, it's summer. But maybe the video created May 14th in a colder climate does justify it.

Weren't they supposed to be delivered during the middle of the Polar Vortex?

[BusHunter]

Weren't they supposed to be delivered during the middle of the Polar Vortex?

The climate is different up there. From what i heard Minnesotians get snow through May and Winnipeg up to June, so it's appropriate for the video to be shot with mounds of snow surrounding it. Anyway MVTArider answered that it was a grounding cable/cord. I don't see the space to put this at Union Station unless they got the transit center Union Station project built. I see this more at Navy Pier, they could put this on the side of the driveup area to the terminal. But what would be the power source. A regular telephone pole electric wire or a mini electrical substation?

[Busjack]

The climate is different up there. From what i heard Minnesotians get snow through May and Winnipeg up to June, so it's appropriate for the video to be shot with mounds of snow surrounding it. Anyway MVTArider answered that it was a grounding cable/cord. I don't see the space to put this at Union Station unless they got the transit center Union Station project built. I see this more at Navy Pier, they could put this on the side of the driveup area to the terminal. But what would be the power source. A regular telephone pole electric wire or a mini electrical substation?

I doubt that it is that.

Anyway, when was the last time you saw a bus that wasn't supplied with a heater (for the passengers' comfort)?

Besides that, New Flyer said that the diesel heater is in the bus. You would think that they would know.

[BusHunter]

You know if you look closely at the video behind the prototype All Electric Xcelsior there are two more Xcelsiors in the factory painted white. I wonder if those might be the CTA ones. Curiously enough they have black rubber bumpers, a CTA spec, not a painted bumper like the prototype.

[Busjack]

You know if you look closely at the video behind the prototype All Electric Xcelsior there are two more Xcelsiors in the factory painted white. I wonder if those might be the CTA ones. Curiously enough they have black rubber bumpers, a CTA spec, not a painted bumper like the prototype.

Saw that at 3:13, but also at the beginning "Made in Manitoba." If that means assembled (as opposed to research history), the 2 CTA buses weren't, since US Xcelsior production is entirely in Minnesota and sightings were there.

[Busjack]

On 6/14/2018 at 9:26 AM, Busjack said:

...

However, $1.2 million does seem excessive for whatever it is.

Maybe it will show up eventually under Ordinances.

It eventually did (Ordinance 018-051):

Contract No. C11FT101141639 – New Flyer America, Inc.
Original Ordinance No. 012-75
Description: Purchase of two, 40 ft., low floor, air conditioned, accessible, electric buses.
Change Order No. 2 provides for additional funding. CTA’s two New Flyer electric buses and charging systems have been in service since October of 2014. However, due to battery capacity, the travel range per bus is limited to 80-120 miles per day. The buses take 3-5 hours to fully charge and are not equipped for overhead charging. This change order provides for the contractor to convert the two electric buses for en-route overhead charging capability and installation of an overhead charger at Midway bus turnaround. This modification will allow Bus Operations and Bus Maintenance staff the opportunity to become familiar with the overhead charging process and technologies as CTA is currently in the process of procuring additional electric buses and charging stations.
Total Change Order No. 2: $1,242,040.31
Revised Contract Amount: $3,821,168.11

Notable:

• Still indicates 2 buses, so 700 isn't dead yet.
• I wonder what route they are testing out of Midway.