Toronto Transit Commission

[Nabinut]

Photos taken from a recent trip to Toronto:

1982 GM Fishbowl #2251 awaiting passengers at Lawrence Station:

GM #2246 hangs a left out of Lawrence West Station on its way eastbound:

Both first and second generation Orion Hybrids are seen here as #1020 passes a disabled #1636:

Novabus RTS-06 WFD #7219 is boarding passengers along Wilson on its way to York Mills Subway Station:

Former CNG Orion V now Diesel #9401 arrives on the upper deck of Wilson Station on Route 29:

Hybrid #1732 sits in the fog, awaiting passengers at Scarborough Centre RT Station:

Another GM, #2444 on its way to pulling in for the evening on Route 52:

The rest of my photos are here:

http://s166.photobucket.com/albums/u91/nabinut/Toronto%20Transit%20Commission/

Videos:

GM Fishbowl #2340: Detroit Diesel 6v71/Allison V730

Novabus RTS #7202: DD50/Allison B400R

Orion V #9401: Cummins M11/Allison B400R

Orion V #7007: DD50/Allison B400R

Orion VII First Generation Hybrid #1125: Cummins ISB/BAE Systems

Orion VII Diesel #7783: DD50/Allison B400R

Toronto Transit Commission Bus Video:

[Busjack]

Even though some of the Toronto enthusiast's sites indicate that the fishbowls were rebuilt several times, I'm surprised that they are still around.

I also see that Toronto is adhering to 2 x 1 bus seating,* which they had going back to the late 70s, and I suppose was the "inspiration" for when that was used in Chicago.

_______

*Apparently, though, that picture was of the RTS interior.

[geneking7320]

I'll check out your TTC pics soon but until then a question:

Did all the TTC buses have double rear doors? [like the fishbowls for example].

[Busjack]

I'll check out your TTC pics soon but until then a question:

Did all the TTC buses have double rear doors? [like the fishbowls for example].

The pictures indicate that the new ones don't.

The fishbowls generally did. IIRC from when I visited Toronto in the late 70s or early 80s, the rear door were floor treadle operated, as opposed to those on the CTA propanes, which you had to push open. One of the Toronto sites has a picture of the outside of one.

That site also has pictures of buses acquired from Montreal, one in which the bus had an accordion type rear door.

[qwantae]

I'll check out your TTC pics soon but until then a question:

Did all the TTC buses have double rear doors? [like the fishbowls for example].

TTC's 1998 Nova RTSes were the first buses that were ordered with regular rear doors, plus the only difference between both (TTC's RTS and CTA's RTS) TTC's w/c lift is at rear door which is pretty rare on an RTS WFD. 1996 Orion 5 were the last buses ordered by TTC with double rear doors.

[Busjack]

...the only difference between both (TTC's RTS and CTA's RTS) TTC's w/c lift is at rear door which is pretty rare on an RTS WFD. ...

In fact, of those RTSs with lifts, going back to the 1980s in NYC, the lift at the back door was usual. The RTS08 was developed based on CTA's demand, upheld by the FTA, that the lift had to be in the front.

Of course, after Nova took over the RTS, its models might have differed in that regard.

Thanks for clarifying that the Orion Vs were the last with the double doors.

[qwantae]

In fact, of those RTSs with lifts, going back to the 1980s in NYC, the lift at the back door was usual. The RTS08 was developed based on CTA's demand, upheld by the FTA, that the lift had to be in the front.

Of course, after Nova took over the RTS, its models might have differed in that regard.

Thanks for clarifying that the Orion Vs were the last with the double doors.

That explained why CTA never bother to order normal RTS like an 06s or even GMC RTS like NYC/ L.A. because CTA policy was to only have W/C lift in front.

[Busjack]

That explained why CTA never bother to order normal RTS like an 06s or even GMC RTS like NYC/ L.A. because CTA policy was to only have W/C lift in front.

That, in itself, probably wouldn't, because while NYC had lifts from the late 70s, CTA fought it until litigation, and finally the ADA mandated it. Besides that, CTA was trying to steer its business to MAN. It was only after the FTA ruled that CTA couldn't have a spec that discriminated in favor of one source that TMC and Flxible got the business, but the FTA said that CTA's requirement that the lift be in front was acceptable, so TMC had to develop the 08.

[Wolfman]

"...the rear door were floor treadle operated, as opposed to those on the CTA propanes, which you had to push open."

The 5000 series (and prior) Twin Coaches had treadle operated rear doors.

The treadle operation (then) was a poor and primitave design. Many times, the treadle did not work. This was a major concern especailly after the PCC stretcar wreck at State & 63rd. New city ordinances mandated that future bus orders have the 'push door' option as well as 'cherries' at each door and an optional emergency exit.

[Wolfman]

I also see that Toronto is adhering to 2 x 1 bus seating,* which they had going back to the late 70s, and I suppose was the "inspiration" for when that was used in Chicago.

Yup. Toronto (and many other Canadian cities) opted for 2/1 seating. Been putting in specs for buses that way for a long, long time.

I think even the Flyer E 700s had 2/1 seats. It made sense. It makes for a wider aisle, and the buses accomodate more riders when they cary crush loads. Some orders had half "bowling alley" seats (logitudinal). Same reason.

CTA experiemented with 2/1 seating on one of the 9000s. 9537 in fact. It ran out of Forest Glen and Limits perpetually to great success. The seating plan was used with the last 25 Flyer D-901s (1600-1624). You would have thought the next bus order (M.A.N. 4000s) would have a similar seating arrangement. Not to be. When it was mandated that all following orders be ADA compliant (lifts), CTA had to swallow it and do 2/1 seats for the "Timmies" (4400s).

[Busjack]

.....When it was mandated that all following orders be ADA compliant (lifts), CTA had to swallow it and do 2/1 seats for the "Timmies" (4400s).

I'm not so sure about swallow, because the 6000s were 2 x 2 and, of course, most of the low floors, while having few seats were mostly 2x2 until the most recent ones.

[Orion VIII]

Just an update to the thread...approximately 30 of the fishbowls remain active in the fleet and 8 at a time are being cycled out of service over the summer. Whether all of them will return to service remains to be seen, because this practice has occurred in years past and we've emerged from the summer with fewer GMs, so we'll wait and see what happens come September.

[Busjack]

If you want something to cure insomnia, this video is it:

Surprisingly, bicyclists ride between the streetcar and closed sections of the curb lane. You can imagine how the activists would howl about that in Chicago.

 

[Busjack]

TTC is apparently going all in on electric buses, with reports of 186 firm from NF and 124 firm from Nova Bus. Montreal, and the rest of Quebec, have a firm order for 339 LFSe+. Of course, they have hydroelectric power.

[strictures]

On 3/7/2023 at 7:39 PM, Busjack said:

If you want something to cure insomnia, this video is it:

Surprisingly, bicyclists ride between the streetcar and closed sections of the curb lane. You can imagine how the activists would howl about that in Chicago.

 

That brought me back to my childhood riding the 22 Clark car.  The ride was smooth, unlike a bus & very quiet.  But to me, nothing will ever top the look of the classic 1937 design of the PCC streetcar. 

But one question:  Why do some of them use the pantograph & some use the single juice jack at the rear end?  The cars are equipped with both.

And Toronto has far better designed shelters than the godawful garbage we have in Chicago, what with all the openings for wind & snow to blow through!  And their automated announcements are far more pleasant than Lee Crooks.

[Busjack]

4 hours ago, strictures said:

But one question:  Why do some of them use the pantograph & some use the single juice jack at the rear end?  The cars are equipped with both.

Something said some wires can't take the pantograph.

Update: An engineering report is here.