Proposal to Scrap the Blue Line (Forest Park branch)

[BusHunter]

There's an interesting read concerning a proposal to scrap the blue line, when the Ike gets rebuilt in a few years. Although they address getting rid of the blue line, they do not address what would happen to the freight railroad beside it that is still an active track. It's kind of surprising to me a proposal of this nature would even be suggested, given the Ike is terribly overcrowded in the rush periods. It's usually pretty bad not only in Oak Park, but way out to around Mannheim (or the beginning of the avenues) I know the #747 has some long schedules around the rush period to compensate for this. Since they are talking proposals, maybe they should just put the blue line back in the median rebuild stations on the west end and expand the line west at least through Mannheim or to Oak Brook center. That would get more commuters off the Ike and on to mass transit. For me it seems, BRT is only a cheap solution here, but it wouldn't work along side a rail line. (maybe only in #747 territory)

[MVTArider]

Interesting proposal.

What is ridership like down at that end of the blue line? I would imagine even if it's not too good it would still be a higher operating cost to provide service with BRT artics than with a 6-8 car train.

[Busjack]

If you hadn't included the link, I would have asked who was smoking what here.

As I read this, this indicated scrapping the whole Congress part of the Blue Line, or more particularly:

Redden's proposal would involve ending Blue Line rail service at Ashland Avenue, just north of Chicago's West Side medical center complex. Riders would then transfer to buses to travel further west, north or south.

...not just in Oak Park. As far as widening the expressway, ripping out the Blue Line wouldn't be necessary in Chicago, since, according to Krambles, the median was built wide enough that it could also take two CA&E tracks as well as the 2 CTA tracks there. West of Central, you raised the question about the tracks being next to the railroad.

Even though the Congress branch seems to have half the loading of the O'Hare branch, it still is busy, and I know who would yell bloody murder if discontinuing the line were seriously suggested.

BRT wouldn't work, if it had to contend with traffic, which would undoubtedly eat up any additional capacity. If they are saying something like putting a dedicated BRT corridor and stations in the median, well, those facilities already exist for the higher capacity train.

The Pace/Addams Tollway one doesn't sound as bizarre to me, as there is no existing rapid transit in that corridor, Pace and the Tollway Authority are cooperating with regard to bus exit lanes and park and rides, and the Tollway says that it will reserve enough space in case the STAR Line ever materializes. If CMAQ funds materialize, at least the Pace express buses would be a fairly low cost option. Tearing out the Blue Line just to put in BRT would not. Not to mention the probable need to repay the FTA for any recent improvements to the Blue Line, like the signalling system.

You know what my final response is going to be...this is just another consultant trying to justify an unnecessary retainer; no different than trying to get the crowds out in Skokie after proposing a station on high school property, or the crowds in Evanston after a proposal there to close some stations and eliminate express service. Why the various authorities urinate away money over consultants is totally beyond me.

[Tcmetro]

Are they also going to study removing the roadway and replacing it with El tracks?

[Busjack]

Are they also going to study removing the roadway and replacing it with El tracks?

There was an actual L there until about 1958, and the deal was that they got the right of way in exchange for building the median rapid transit.

The end of the article somewhat sums it up--it was someone from IDOT, who probably did not even think of conferring with CTA. If IDOT somehow feels compelled to study 14 alternatives, why not include one that will get opposition, as I noted above?

Also, since the expressway was just resurfaced, nothing is going to happen for a decade, and at the moment there is no transportation bill.

[Guest]

There's an interesting read concerning a proposal to scrap the blue line, when the Ike gets rebuilt in a few years. Although they address getting rid of the blue line, they do not address what would happen to the freight railroad beside it that is still an active track. It's kind of surprising to me a proposal of this nature would even be suggested, given the Ike is terribly overcrowded in the rush periods. It's usually pretty bad not only in Oak Park, but way out to around Mannheim (or the beginning of the avenues) I know the #747 has some long schedules around the rush period to compensate for this. Since they are talking proposals, maybe they should just put the blue line back in the median rebuild stations on the west end and expand the line west at least through Mannheim or to Oak Brook center. That would get more commuters off the Ike and on to mass transit. For me it seems, BRT is only a cheap solution here, but it wouldn't work along side a rail line. (maybe only in #747 territory)

Its an insanity to imagine scrapping any portion of the rapid transit in Chicago! If anything it needs to expand, badly!

[mkohut]

I agree.Instead of spending for more for the consultants.The money should be use to expand.

[Guest]

I agree.Instead of spending for more for the consultants.The money should be use to expand.

I want to see the rapid transit lines expand outward. Id especially like to see the Blue Line extended out to Woodfield/Schaumburg. Probably the only realistic extension we could see is the Skokie Line to Old Orchard. Im sure CTA #54A, #97 and Pace Route #215 would still be retained with a few adjustments made.

[sw4400]

Never rode the Blue Line, but isn't this a stupid idea? I mean the "L" lines are quick modes of transportation. Even if they put BRT Buses in replacement, they can only go as fast as the traffic in front of them(and you'll have cars and cabs blocking the BRT Lane to drop off/pick up passengers or to call/text John/Jane Doe; they'll do this, too. I've seen them do this in Bike Lanes forcing Bicyclists out of their lanes into the roadway. Then if there's a RR X-ing in the BRT Route that brings a long Freight Train through, no special BRT equipment will stop that). I think Ms. Leanne Redden is sitting on her brain!!!

[Guest]

Never rode the Blue Line, but isn't this a stupid idea? I mean the "L" lines are quick modes of transportation. Even if they put BRT Buses in replacement, they can only go as fast as the traffic in front of them(and you'll have cars and cabs blocking the BRT Lane to drop off/pick up passengers or to call/text John/Jane Doe; they'll do this, too. I've seen them do this in Bike Lanes forcing Bicyclists out of their lanes into the roadway. Then if there's a RR X-ing in the BRT Route that brings a long Freight Train through, no special BRT equipment will stop that). I think Ms. Leanne Redden is sitting on her brain!!!

Just another fine example of how backwards this city and our transit system is going! It all comes down to incompetent officials who know nothing about the needs of our city and regional transit.

[mkohut]

Never rode the Blue Line, but isn't this a stupid idea? I mean the "L" lines are quick modes of transportation. Even if they put BRT Buses in replacement, they can only go as fast as the traffic in front of them(and you'll have cars and cabs blocking the BRT Lane to drop off/pick up passengers or to call/text John/Jane Doe; they'll do this, too. I've seen them do this in Bike Lanes forcing Bicyclists out of their lanes into the roadway. Then if there's a RR X-ing in the BRT Route that brings a long Freight Train through, no special BRT equipment will stop that). I think Ms. Leanne Redden is sitting on her brain!!!

No one ever said consultants knew what they were doing.

[CURRENTZ_09]

DUMBEST IDEA EVER. Why would you invest on becoming an innovator and then go backwards by investing in cheaper, horrible express bus service as to improving the Blue Line, adding Express Service on the Line and rebuilting stations and destorying old ones that were closed and never reused again. The Forest Park Blue Line is a great investment and like they said in 1996 when they demolished parts of the Jackson Park branch, once the L is gone, its gone.

[Busjack]

Since this is the only one going beyond "me too..."

I want to see the rapid transit lines expand outward. Id especially like to see the Blue Line extended out to Woodfield/Schaumburg. Probably the only realistic extension we could see is the Skokie Line to Old Orchard. Im sure CTA #54A, #97 and Pace Route #215 would still be retained with a few adjustments made.

This might have been timely 10 years ago, but I think they are now dead. With regard to Woodfield, the RTA actually did a comparative analysis 10 years ago, and the STAR Line won. Except, Metra doesn't think there is a source of funding. Looks like if you get anything, it would be the Pace/Tollway CMAQ proposal, previously mentioned.

Extending the Blue Line would also involve tunneling under O'Hare. Again, somehow they got the station under the parking garage, but then would have to continue tunneling until it got to the proposed O'Hare Bypass Tollway.

I am still convinced that the CTA consultants killed the Yellow Line extension (de facto) by proposing the station on high school property, and getting the locals out to demonstrate that it was not the locally preferred alternative.

[cta5658]

Just another fine example of how backwards this city and our transit system is going! It all comes down to incompetent officials who know nothing about the needs of our city and regional transit.

Yep, this is gonna send more people to other cities like seattle

[Busjack]

...

What is ridership like down at that end of the blue line?...

If you want to do some number crunching yourself, look at the most recent ridership report. The Forest Park branch has a weekday average of about 29K boardings. For comparison sake, the O"Hare branch has 78K, but the Pink Line, which is essentially parallel, but two miles south has 15.9, and that was thought worth completely rebuilding less than 10 years ago.

Since the proposal was to rip out west of Medical Center, maybe you deduct 10K for the 3 stations (Med Center, Racine, and Halsted/UIC), but you now don't know how many of those boardings were to go westbound.

Of course, I also assume that if a certain number boards, a comparable number has to exit.

...and you'll have cars and cabs blocking the BRT Lane to drop off/pick up passengers or to call/text John/Jane Doe; they'll do this, too. I've seen them do this in Bike Lanes forcing Bicyclists out of their lanes into the roadway. Then if there's a RR X-ing in the BRT Route that brings a long Freight Train through...

Since it would be on the expressway, none of that. However, it, as a minimum would imply either (1) an additional transfer at Medical Center, or (2) running buses downtown [ala Pace 855] and hence increasing downtown congestion and air pollution.

In any event, I reiterate that some consultant was smoking something here.

[BusHunter]

Since this is the only one going beyond "me too..."

This might have been timely 10 years ago, but I think they are now dead. With regard to Woodfield, the RTA actually did a comparative analysis 10 years ago, and the STAR Line won. Except, Metra doesn't think there is a source of funding. Looks like if you get anything, it would be the Pace/Tollway CMAQ proposal, previously mentioned.

Extending the Blue Line would also involve tunneling under O'Hare. Again, somehow they got the station under the parking garage, but then would have to continue tunneling until it got to the proposed O'Hare Bypass Tollway.

I am still convinced that the CTA consultants killed the Yellow Line extension (de facto) by proposing the station on high school property, and getting the locals out to demonstrate that it was not the locally preferred alternative.

That was the great thing about rapid transit before it became publicly owned. Many of the competing companies would expand faster and transit was viewed more as a business enterprise versus a public necessity. I know if the blue line were privately owned it would have gone to Woodfield by now. It's a big tourist draw. You should hear how many people have asked me where is Woodfield, especially at O'Hare? I think the top two corridors for expansion that are not in the CTA grab bag have got to be the western and northwestern suburbs. Like someone mentioned above, the pros and cons should really be discussed when a branch/line is discussed for elimination. Just think, if the Westchester branch were still around, it would be wildly popular with the Maywood/Bellwood crowd many of whom would jump on the transit bandwagon if it were there. The elevated Logan square branch (north of Lake/Paulina) would have been a great corridor and alot cheaper alternative to run the Circle line through if it still existed. Sometimes getting rid of rights of way is a good way to shoot yourself in the foot.

[Busjack]

That was the great thing about rapid transit before it became publicly owned. Many of the competing companies would expand faster and transit was viewed more as a business enterprise versus a public necessity. ...

Of course, in those days, there actually was a "build it and they will develop" mentality, such as it being said that the reason that the far end of the Ravenswood line was allowed to be built at ground level was it was all on unplatted land. You also have to remember that Ravinia was originally laid out as an amusement park for interurban riders, which was a normal way to generate business 90-100 years ago.

Then, there were the interurban bypasses, which were built on the C&NS Skokie Valley route, and the Westchester route was supposed to be the start of one for the C&AE, but never happened. Even with CRT service on the Skokie and Westchester branches, those areas didn't develop until after WWII, and no thanks to the rapid transit.

However, one has to consider that the reason there are no private rapid transit companies today, and the interurbans are dead (unless you consider the South Shore an interurban instead of a commuter railroad), is that they couldn't make money. In fact, the Lake Street seemed bankrupt from the beginning, and any real competition ended by the time Insull took over the rapid transit and interurbans around here.

[BusHunter]

Of course, in those days, there actually was a "build it and they will develop" mentality, such as it being said that the reason that the far end of the Ravenswood line was allowed to be built at ground level was it was all on unplatted land. You also have to remember that Ravinia was originally laid out as an amusement park for interurban riders, which was a normal way to generate business 90-100 years ago.

Then, there were the interurban bypasses, which were built on the C&NS Skokie Valley route, and the Westchester route was supposed to be the start of one for the C&AE, but never happened. Even with CRT service on the Skokie and Westchester branches, those areas didn't develop until after WWII, and no thanks to the rapid transit.

However, one has to consider that the reason there are no private rapid transit companies today, and the interurbans are dead (unless you consider the South Shore an interurban instead of a commuter railroad), is that they couldn't make money. In fact, the Lake Street seemed bankrupt from the beginning, and any real competition ended by the time Insull took over the rapid transit and interurbans around here.

I thought I read somewhere the Las Vegas Monorail was owned by the casinos. (If you call that rapid transit) I guess the transit would have to be in a profitable high density area to be deemed successful like a loop circulator for Chicago. That would probably be less than ten percent of transit worldwide that would fit into that catagory.

[Busjack]

I thought I read somewhere the Las Vegas Monorail was owned by the casinos. (If you call that rapid transit) I guess the transit would have to be in a profitable high density area to be deemed successful like a loop circulator for Chicago. That would probably be less than ten percent of transit worldwide that would fit into that catagory.

The About-->History pulldown on the linked site supports that. However, it also makes clear that the impetus was the hotels on "The Strip."

There was some RTA study (and money blown) on something similar for Rosemont, but the project didn't go anywhere.

[BusHunter]

The About-->History pulldown on the linked site supports that. However, it also makes clear that the impetus was the hotels on "The Strip."

There was some RTA study (and money blown) on something similar for Rosemont, but the project didn't go anywhere.

Two problems with Rosemont's former plan. The fact that it is personal rapid transit versus a public system (to serve a crowd) makes it even more expensive to maintain with even less revenue. Plus there's not the huge cash flows of Vegas here. (There is spending here, but it's not concentrated in one part of the city.) Also I don't know how it is in Vegas, but it's hard to get any transit project off the ground here.

[Busjack]

...Also I don't know how it is in Vegas, but it's hard to get any transit project off the ground here.

Using the linked article to refresh my recollection, it seems like the main problems in Rosemont was that it was the RTA rather than a private entity, and it was dependent on Raytheon to provide the technology, but Raytheon pulled out.

As you indicated, probably not feasible in any event.