Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[Tcmetro]

I moved it:

• Are the GoTo cards proprietary or supposedly open, and do they use RFID?
• The

  last time Northstar was mentioned, it was using magnetic stripe cards.

  The Metro pages indicate that those are still accepted on the bus (reference to stored value cards), but don't say on the train.

The reasons I ask is that the card may be analogous to the Chicago Card rather than the Ventra system.

- Proprietory, but when I was in Chicago last week, the Ventra TVM's were very similar (software and hardware wise) to those here in Minneapolis. IIRC, Los Angeles TVM's are basically the same as well.

- Northstar uses magnetic strip cards if you buy a ticket with cash from a TVM; however, the magnetic strips are never swiped. POP is by checking the time stamped on the ticket, or with cell phones that have a RFID card reader embedded in them. We don't have the disposable smart cards that are present in Chicago. The magnetic strip (stored value and 31-day) passes are not valid on Northstar. Bus/LRT fares are completely separate from Northstar.

- We have an odd situation here in Minneapolis. We are still offering the magnetic strip cards and GoTo smart cards. Additionally we haven't phased out magnetic strip transfers. There is talk of an entire fare restructure, and a new open smart card system (similar to Ventra); however, it's all quite preliminary at this point.

[Busjack]

- Proprietory, but when I was in Chicago last week, the Ventra TVM's were very similar (software and hardware wise) to those here in Minneapolis. IIRC, Los Angeles TVM's are basically the same as well.

,,,,There is talk of an entire fare restructure, and a new open smart card system (similar to Ventra); however, it's all quite preliminary at this point.

Thanks. It was as I thought, meaning that art's use of the illustration was only of how to tap, not that Minneapolis had figured out an open fare system for commuter rail. Since the machines are all Cubic,they probably are similar. The difference between card systems may be that whoever didn't tell TCM that they weren't making chips for GoTo Cards, which appears to be the stated justification for scrapping Chicago Cards now.

Your saying that mag stripe tickets aren't scanned on Northstar, but just visually read, seems similar to the Metra Electric, in that the ticket vending machines are still there, but the tickets are not put through a turnstile reader (like they once were).

[Amtrak41]

http://www.suntimes.com/23460991-761/transit-union-postpone-ventra-rollout-until-kinks-worked-out.html

[Busjack]

http://www.suntimes.com/23460991-761/transit-union-postpone-ventra-rollout-until-kinks-worked-out.html

More substance there than on the story just on the WGN News,* which did have a lot of footage of R buses at the Garfield station.

At least there, Brian Steele was quoted as saying that they were working on the problems, while it appears that Tammy Chase went totally over the cliff in the S-T.

___________

*Update: The video is actually on the Tribune site.

[Chicagolooper]

Ex-ChicagoPlus Card user here who received the Ventra Card and successfully activated it. I consider myself a 'well-educated user" of the system and have initially liked it. However, I have also been reading about the double billings and finally it happened to me. I was boarding the other day at Madison and Wabash Elevated station and for 15 seconds I fooled around with the card and no go sign. So I tried the next lane to it and it worked. Then I checked my account the next day and there was the double billing - handled as a pass-back. For some reason, I remember reading somewhere where the pass-back feature of the ChicagoPlus card would not be in Ventra, but here we have it, but in the most unexpected way. grrrr.

I want to register my opinion with those here that the CTA must fix this and do it in a way that is understandable to folks. I viewed the film the tattler had about how to hold the card and get it read - reminds me of the joke in making sure you hold your mouth in a certain way to get things to work.

The really bad part of this is I called the customer service number for Ventra to get my credit of $2.25 and they took my name and number to call me back. I am not going to miss the $2.25 if I never see it again, but there are those out there who this would have an effect on and it sure should be a lot easier than it is to get a credit on this system. Especially if the readers are not working properly. (Or should I say the customers are not holding their cards properly.)

I was in San Francisco at the end of September and used their Clipper Card. It was very nice and works somewhat like Ventra is supposed to except that it is limited to transit. I was able to order one in advance and it saved me from having to wait in a line (like O'Hare has) to get a fare card to ride into the city.

[Amtrak41]

If you cheat them out of $2.25, they'd arrest you, so I have no qualms about turning them upside side and shaking them from their ankles for $2.25 to fall out of their pockets.

Rahm will be crying all the way to the bank on the dissatisfaction over this fiasco.

[Rippler]

If you cheat them out of $2.25, they'd arrest you, so I have no qualms about turning them upside side and shaking them from their ankles for $2.25 to fall out of their pockets.

I'd have to agree. It's the principle of it.

And here it is November 1st and I still don't have my Ventra card that was supposed to arrive within 7-10 business days of September 4th. I don't see how they can not move the deadlines ahead at this point, I'm sure I'm not the only Chicago Card Plus user who hasn't received their new card yet.

[Busjack]

I'd have to agree. It's the principle of it.

And here it is November 1st and I still don't have my Ventra card that was supposed to arrive within 7-10 business days of September 4th. I don't see how they can not move the deadlines ahead at this point, I'm sure I'm not the only Chicago Card Plus user who hasn't received their new card yet.

Did you get the call from the "independent contractor?" (Sun-Times recent reference) If not, I assume you are lost somewhere in the system, but the only real question is whether you have a CCP balance to transfer; otherwise there isn't a reason not to buy a card.

You might want to read Seth's comment on today's CTA Tattler, if that sways you one way or the other.

[BusHunter]

Looks like the union wants the CTA to work out the kinks with ventra according to the redeye. CTA so far is refusing that request. I don't know what they are going to do once the transit cards are gone. That's when they are going to have some problems. These machines out here are still taking 3 attempts to pay. Each attempt seems to charge the card with a ride (transit card riders only) There is definitely something wrong with the programming here.

[BusHunter]

Looks like the union wants the CTA to work out the kinks with ventra according to the redeye. CTA so far is refusing that request. I don't know what they are going to do once the transit cards are gone. That's when they are going to have some problems. These machines out here are still taking 3 attempts to pay. Each attempt seems to charge the card with a ride (transit card riders only) There is definitely something wrong with the programming here.

[Rippler]

Did you get the call from the "independent contractor?" (Sun-Times recent reference) If not, I assume you are lost somewhere in the system, but the only real question is whether you have a CCP balance to transfer; otherwise there isn't a reason not to buy a card.

You might want to read Seth's comment on today's CTA Tattler, if that sways you one way or the other.

I did not get any call about it yet from the new calls set up. When I called Ventra the other week, they didn't show my name as having been issued one, so at least someone else doesn't have my card. They simply said cards are scheduled to be mailed this week (which I hear did go out on Monday), and on November 5th. They could not however tell me if my name was on any list as scheduled to be issued a card.

And yes, I do have a balance to transfer which I won't use up before the November 15th deadline. I'm not a daily rider but I loved the convenience of the CCP card and refilling it automatically when it got low without me having to do a thing or keep tabs on the balance.

I'm not looking forward to using the new card though after reading more about it. Using the CCP card was almost an instant beep and "enter" when tapping it to the front of the turnstyle. Now it appears even when it's working correctly, it will take holding the card there in place for a few seconds until it's acknowledged by the system. I'm just glad I don't travel during rush hour anymore for those lines.

[sw4400]

What I see too often is impatient riders who don't know how to use the Ventra system that are overcharging themselves. Too often it's a flash press "STOP"... flash press "STOP".... flash press "STOP". After they press and keep it by the reader for a few seconds "GO". Those "STOP" notices might've been because the reader didn't fully acknowledge deduction of fare/use of the pass on the card, when in reality it did take the fare/use the pass on the card.

What people need to realize is you have to keep your card by that reader until the machine says "GO". Don't flash and walk away, the reader is most likely not recognizing the card by doing that.

Sometimes, the readers make the "Ding" noise that acknowledge a card has been touched, but takes several seconds to do the second "Ding" with the "GO" screen. If you leave while only the reader is still thinking, more often then not, it'll come back with a "STOP".

To be fair, I use unlimited ride passes on my Ventra Card and no Credit/Debit accounts are linked for auto-loading. But when I use mine, I hold it at the reader until it says "GO"(never had a "STOP" yet), then I take the card away and stand/sit in the bus. I check the account religiously and still have the $5.00 transit credit originally put on there when I bought the card and registered it. It hasn't gone to a negative balance for multi-taps.

[jajuan]

What I see too often is impatient riders who don't know how to use the Ventra system that are overcharging themselves. Too often it's a flash press "STOP"... flash press "STOP".... flash press "STOP". After they press and keep it by the reader for a few seconds "GO". Those "STOP" notices might've been because the reader didn't fully acknowledge deduction of fare/use of the pass on the card, when in reality it did take the fare/use the pass on the card.

What people need to realize is you have to keep your card by that reader until the machine says "GO". Don't flash and walk away, the reader is most likely not recognizing the card by doing that.

Sometimes, the readers make the "Ding" noise that acknowledge a card has been touched, but takes several seconds to do the second "Ding" with the "GO" screen. If you leave while only the reader is still thinking, more often then not, it'll come back with a "STOP".

To be fair, I use unlimited ride passes on my Ventra Card and no Credit/Debit accounts are linked for auto-loading. But when I use mine, I hold it at the reader until it says "GO"(never had a "STOP" yet), then I take the card away and stand/sit in the bus. I check the account religiously and still have the $5.00 transit credit originally put on there when I bought the card and registered it. It hasn't gone to a negative balance for multi-taps.

Others have made similar observations while still acknowledging that yes there are some problems and issues that are not in the customers' control (read the big CC/CCP riders' Ventra card mailing screwup) and got that observation knocked as unjustly blaming the customer and/or questioning their intelligence. You, I and a few others who've run into relatively few problems so far can't be the only runs around for whom the transition has been a smooth ride up to this point. Although most of the time the readers have been relatively quick to give me a "GO" signal, you are correct that each of us as a boarding does need to wait to see that "GO" screen flash just in case you have a slow reader in general or haven't given the reading on the screen time to reset from the previous rider over to your turn to tap.

[jajuan]

Well guys it looks like they put in owine's suggestion. I got on the 22 Clark this morning and the reader blinked a quick "Processing...Please wait" before giving me the "Go" signal. It was still about as fast to board. But it seems maybe some software programmer for Ventura may be scoping out the forum. I think it only appears on slower readers though because the reader on the 9 Ashland bus I boarded went straight to the "Go" screen.

[Amtrak41]

< some software programmer for Ventura may be scoping out the forum >

Programmers don't make the decision to put new or modified code into production.

In I-T, there is an elaborate "Change Manangement" process these days. It is in fact overkill, gunks up the works, and generates so much clerical work, that management is so far removed from the nitty-gritty, that we have disasterous rollouts of Ventra and Obamacare, while problems don't get solved.

[Busjack]

I did not get any call about it yet from the new calls set up. When I called Ventra the other week, they didn't show my name as having been issued one, so at least someone else doesn't have my card. They simply said cards are scheduled to be mailed this week (which I hear did go out on Monday), and on November 5th. They could not however tell me if my name was on any list as scheduled to be issued a card.

And yes, I do have a balance to transfer which I won't use up before the November 15th deadline. ...

If you didn't get a call and didn't get the last round of e-mails, you are somehow going to have to punt before the deadline.

Someone else getting your card wouldn't make any difference, because the card is no good unless it is activated. If your CCP account hasn't been drained, nobody else was able to activate anything linked to it.

[BiT]

In reading all this, it seems that the Class Action lawsuit has been forgotten: lots of gripes but no wanting to join the suit.

I'm attaching the Plaintiff's Motion. Take a quick read over it and see if anyone has experienced similar problems.Plaintiff's Motion for class certification_Pleading.pdf

Like, I'm no lawyer, but all of the stories in the Trib and Sun Times yesterday saying people were being double, triple, quadruple billed for one fare- doesn't this sort of prove the allegations?

[BusHunter]

I had a first yesterday. I had a driver tell me not to touch/swipe the card again after it gave me the stop indication. That's probably what more operators need to do. All these delays in reading is making buses late.

I don't think these card read errors have to do with holding your card there until it gives a go signal. If it was thinking about it, the screen would freeze. When it wants a reswipe it would just go back to the blue screen. Once it says stop it has already decided whether it is accepting the card or not.

So jajuan, did you notice many stop indications with the processing indication? Does this solve the problem?

[Amtrak41]

"New CTA Ventra problems arise ‘every day’ — unlike live phone help"

http://www.suntimes.com/news/23480068-418/new-cta-ventra-problems-arise-every-day-unlike-live-phone-help.html

CTA spokeswoman Tammy Chase said “There’s never been a discussion to have call [representatives] on the weekend.”

[jajuan]

< some software programmer for Ventura may be scoping out the forum >

Programmers don't make the decision to put new or modified code into production.

In I-T, there is an elaborate "Change Manangement" process these days. It is in fact overkill, gunks up the works, and generates so much clerical work, that management is so far removed from the nitty-gritty, that we have disasterous rollouts of Ventra and Obamacare, while problems don't get solved.

Once again, this and Obamacare are apples and oranges in terms of how the solutions were being tackled.

[jajuan]

I had a first yesterday. I had a driver tell me not to touch/swipe the card again after it gave me the stop indication. That's probably what more operators need to do. All these delays in reading is making buses late.

I don't think these card read errors have to do with holding your card there until it gives a go signal. If it was thinking about it, the screen would freeze. When it wants a reswipe it would just go back to the blue screen. Once it says stop it has already decided whether it is accepting the card or not.

So jajuan, did you notice many stop indications with the processing indication? Does this solve the problem?

Actually no I didn't notice even one stop signal today. Things went relatively smoother for all Ventra riders I observed today.

[Amtrak41]

< Once again, this and Obamacare are apples and oranges in terms of how the solutions were being tackled.>

What is not apples and oranges is the complete disconnect between upper mgmt and business owners with the programmers as to what is ready for prime time. I am sure no technician in either app is the least bit surprised these systems don't work right.

[BiT]

"New CTA Ventra problems arise ‘every day’ — unlike live phone help"

http://www.suntimes.com/news/23480068-418/new-cta-ventra-problems-arise-every-day-unlike-live-phone-help.html

CTA spokeswoman Tammy Chase said “There’s never been a discussion to have call [representatives] on the weekend.”

That's no way to run a railroad.

[jajuan]

< Once again, this and Obamacare are apples and oranges in terms of how the solutions were being tackled.>

What is not apples and oranges is the complete disconnect between upper mgmt and business owners with the programmers as to what is ready for prime time. I am sure no technician in either app is the least bit surprised these systems don't work right.

Still apples and oranges because we're talking about a system for which the intent was to take traffic from all across the country with a more complicated set of criteria to meet and one only really meant primarily to serve one city and its surrounding suburbs. And as I mentioned before, the federal government can at least say it had contingencies in place. The state websites for the most part were working and the phone agents provided a vastly better experience for intended customers than the phone agents working the Ventra rollout. Anyway the topic at hand is Ventra not rollout of Obamacare at the federal level.

[jajuan]

One thing I forgot to add BusHunter in response to your question is that one drawback I did notice is that if the person ahead of you is still in the process of paying a cash fare or swiping a mag stripe card, the Ventra reader will keep saying processing until that other person's payment is complete before it tells you if your Ventra card went through. Before the tweak to the software, it was possible for you to tap your Ventra card and take your seat while that cash customer in front of you was still fumbling for change.