Ventra - Feedback and Updates

[jajuan]

If Ventra is proving one thing, it's that people have no skills or interest in following instructions.

True. Part of that ingrained though process that it has to be faster to be better. It's also showing that some don't care to take time to keep track of their transit accounts if they've completed registration to get their $5 back for transit use either as fare or a discount on a pass.

It gets back to something I said in response to someone posting on a finance board that those who didn't get Windows 8 were Luddites.

In essence, "if you rely on calling your customers stupid, you are in trouble, even if the customers are stupid."

In launching something this complicated, while delaying full disclosure, and without adequate customer service, all that CTA has exhibited again is its overriding contempt for its customers. If Kevin got stuck once on using his RFID card (in not realizing that cash bus fare was $2.25) and again using a Ventra card and being double billed for a transfer and and ride at the same time, something is wrong.

The best that has been said about the instructions to date is that if you go up to a Ventra machine and scroll through and read 3 minutes of instructions, you can figure it out. I bet that anyone at CTA HQs forced to do that wouldn't be able to figure anything out. Like how some people still haven't received their cards, while others have received 100s, for instance.

This was supposed to be an open system, not trying to get to the top level in some video game.

And let's be fair now. Stupid was my word, not theirs. And I think I made my point in that regard which is, in some respects there are folks out there in the general public who make things more complicated than they need to be and whom in some cases haven't even made their own attempts to navigate the new system but still manage to be one of the loudest complainers. Did CTA bungle some this? Of course they did. I'll agree with you that their big mistake has been not saying in a timely manner ok this is how this works and here are some ways to get a better value for your dollar and still choose the fare options that best fit your riding needs. All that's done is allow a sometimes overzealous local media swoop in and see conspiracy in places there weren't necessarily a conspiracy to be found. It's also allowed others who have an ingrained bias or point of view to basically swoop in and zero in on details which feed their point of view even though in some cases it's more a far less harmless misstep than perceived. It's definitely fueled this feeding frenzy of zeroing in on every glitch that pops up and write a final verdict before complete transition is even done. Yes Kevin got dinged twice but he also mentioned that he got that issue fixed. On the 3 minute point, I'm going to say the following: one that's not necessarily how long it takes to go take each person to go through the options or that the machine is complicated enough to take that long. It could be that that individual wants to be sure he did everything right and wanted to be sure he was loaded the right fare media he intended to purchase on his card, just as a suspect was the case for Bushunter in saying it took him 3 minutes since I did same thing even though I knew I could have finished my transaction quicker than the time I actually took when I bought my card. Which brings me to my other big point. If you're making the decision to buy a product/service from a self service terminal, is 3 minutes really that much of an inconvenience to make sure you know what you're buying and/or if you're actually buying what you set your mind to buy without making a mistake on that machine?

[owine]

CTA totally botched the mailing process, that's the big one. I think the various outlets that cover the CTA regularly have done an intellectually dishonest job with their coverage. They seem to ignore the fact that any rollout of any product or service has its initial glitches that need to be worked out. There will be logical decisions made in a meeting 8 months ago that once implemented on day one prompt everyone to ask what they were thinking. This is nothing unique to the CTA, this is inevitably how everything works. I think part of the biggest issue is that the CTA fare structure is somewhat complicated in and of itself. That only adds to the chaos and that's before you add the Pace fare structure to the picture.

Ventra is probably the best and most advanced fare collection system in the US, but once people can use their own credit/debit card instead of Ventra fare media it will be even better. That's the real asset here and it's too bad that heavily publicized feature was not ready for day 1. Then again, if everything everyone likes to say about the CTA is true, wouldn't they have made that feature live out of contempt for the customer?

[Busjack]

....Which brings me to my other big point. If you're making the decision to buy a product/service from a self service terminal, is 3 minutes really that much of an inconvenience to make sure you know what you're buying and/or if you're actually buying what you set your mind to buy without making a mistake on that machine?

And my point is that if the system is supposed to speed loading on buses or through turnstiles (like the now defunct Go Lane was supposed to), this isn't working, especially if after navigating the vending machine, people are having trouble at the readers.

I'm not saying conspiracy here, just incompetence and contempt for the customer, especially if one has to exercise that much care to avoid being taken, which I suppose CTA does not want anyone to do.

But Tammy Chase was just on Channel 7.1 and said there will be more customer assistants at "select" stations tomorrow.

CTA totally botched the mailing process, that's the big one. I think the various outlets that cover the CTA regularly have done an intellectually dishonest job with their coverage. They seem to ignore the fact that any rollout of any product or service has its initial glitches that need to be worked out. There will be logical decisions made in a meeting 8 months ago that once implemented on day one prompt everyone to ask what they were thinking. This is nothing unique to the CTA, this is inevitably how everything works. I think part of the biggest issue is that the CTA fare structure is somewhat complicated in and of itself. That only adds to the chaos and that's before you add the Pace fare structure to the picture.

Ventra is probably the best and most advanced fare collection system in the US, but once people can use their own credit/debit card instead of Ventra fare media it will be even better. That's the real asset here and it's too bad that heavily publicized feature was not ready for day 1. Then again, if everything everyone likes to say about the CTA is true, wouldn't they have made that feature live out of contempt for the customer?

Any rollout may have glitches, but

• Usually there is customer testing before something is officially rolled out. For instance, McDonalds doesn't start McRib nationwide at once. When it converted its kitchens, it did a few at a time instead of crippling the whole system. Even Microsoft had consumer ergonomic studies before it rolled out Office 2007 (apparently not for Windows 8, though).
• The real asset would have been if CTA had been honest that its open fare system wasn't open...i.e. you would get the noncash fare if you used open media. To the extent that Kevin had to go through how you load transit value onto a RFID card, but then there were the warnings not to load too much without registering the card, or you could lose it even though you canceled the card with the bank, and I assume you can't check if you were double billed for a ride and a transfer if you aren't registered. So, essentially, CTA castrated the open fare option.
• I suppose that if one lives in Pace territory, the only viable option is to explain what you need to a clerk at a CVS or some currency exchanges (according to the Ventra map) at least until such time as Ventra vending machines are installed at a few transit centers. Thus, again RFID bank card users will have to pay cash fares, since Pace says it will stop issuing transfers.

I still contend that the unintelligent at CTA management decided to implement this on their own, not realizing that there are other transit authorities that have either implemented or studied this. For instance, there are reports of NY MTA having two trials, but not that they have gone over the cliff, yet. The MTA site says use MetroCard, which is still a "swipe" card (How to use page).

[owine]

And my point is that if the system is supposed to speed loading on buses or through turnstiles (like the now defunct Go Lane was supposed to), this isn't working, especially if after navigating the vending machine, people are having trouble at the readers.

I'm not saying conspiracy here, just incompetence and contempt for the customer, especially if one has to exercise that much care to avoid being taken, which I suppose CTA does not want anyone to do.

But Tammy Chase was just on Channel 7.1 and said there will be more customer assistants at "select" stations tomorrow.

Any rollout may have glitches, but

• Usually there is customer testing before something is officially rolled out. For instance, McDonalds doesn't start McRib nationwide at once. When it converted its kitchens, it did a few at a time instead of crippling the whole system. Even Microsoft had consumer ergonomic studies before it rolled out Office 2007 (apparently not for Windows 8, though).
• The real asset would have been if CTA had been honest that its open fare system wasn't open...i.e. you would get the noncash fare if you used open media. To the extent that Kevin had to go through how you load transit value onto a RFID card, but then there were the warnings not to load too much without registering the card, or you could lose it even though you canceled the card with the bank, and I assume you can't check if you were double billed for a ride and a transfer if you aren't registered. So, essentially, CTA castrated the open fare option.
• I suppose that if one lives in Pace territory, the only viable option is to explain what you need to a clerk at a CVS or some currency exchanges (according to the Ventra map) at least until such time as Ventra vending machines are installed at a few transit centers. Thus, again RFID bank card users will have to pay cash fares, since Pace says it will stop issuing transfers.

I still contend that the unintelligent at CTA management decided to implement this on their own, not realizing that there are other transit authorities that have either implemented or studied this. For instance, there are reports of NY MTA having two trials, but not that they have gone over the cliff, yet. The MTA site says use MetroCard, which is still a "swipe" card (How to use page).

They've claimed that there have been "select user trials" since the initial roadmap was released. I have no reason not to take them at their word on that. Testing under load is a different animal altogether and would explain the initial isolated fare loading issue they had. Simulating load is very difficult.

The open fare system is certainly open, I'm not sure what your definition is. With the new system, my family can hop off a plain at O'Hare and proceed directly to the turnstiles using their credit/debit cards to take an L ride into the city. How is that not open? And doesn't it make sense that doing so is treated as the equivalent of putting cash into a farebox?

[Busjack]

...

The open fare system is certainly open, I'm not sure what your definition is. With the new system, my family can hop off a plain at O'Hare and proceed directly to the turnstiles using their credit/debit cards to take an L ride into the city. How is that not open? And doesn't it make sense that doing so is treated as the equivalent of putting cash into a farebox?

On your last point, NO. Using a card should be using a card. CTA may have to pay some bank exchange fee to First Data, but it does not have the expense of cleaning out fare boxes, counting the coins and dollar bills, and transporting them via an armored car courier service to some bank.

Again, if it was so obvious, why did Kevin fall for it?

And, as noted earlier, your family has to take the crap shoot of using the credit card at O'Hare and paying $5 and not get a transfer, or buy a Ventra ticket for $5 and get transfers, or sit around reading the machine to figure out how to get a transit account on their bank card or whether to put in the $5 deposit to get a Ventra card. How intuitive is that?

[owine]

On your last point, NO. Using a card should be using a card. CTA may have to pay some bank exchange fee to First Data, but it does not have the expense of cleaning out fare boxes, counting the coins and dollar bills, and transporting them via an armored car courier service to some bank.

Again, if it was so obvious, why did Kevin fall for it?

And, as noted earlier, your family has to take the crap shoot of using the credit card at O'Hare and paying $5 and not get a transfer, or buy a Ventra ticket for $5 and get transfers, or sit around reading the machine to figure out how to get a transit account on their bank card or whether to put in the $5 deposit to get a Ventra card. How intuitive is that?

To me, the "same as cash" mantra applies.

You failed to note how the system is not open, you simply noted deficiencies in the CTA's fare structure.

[Busjack]

To me, the "same as cash" mantra applies.

You failed to note how the system is not open, you simply noted deficiencies in the CTA's fare structure.

No, I did not.

CTA's fare structure still could have been "use any card and board for $2.00/1 transfer 25 cents/2nd transfer free."

Instead they came up with the bizarre methods of somehow turning any card into a full cash fare with no transfers unless the user jumped through hoops. That was not a deficiency in the fare structure, it was a deceptive practice in rolling out the system, which they did not publicly correct for about 3 weeks.

BTW, why did we need trigger to tell us we were all wrong, and where is he now?

[owine]

What about it is deceptive? To me, as I said, the "same as cash" mantra applies to the concept. What about it do you find deceptive?

[BusHunter]

The one area that ventra or the CTA really botched is the lack of customer support. Even though people will buy cards at Jewel, they still have to register them. Something that is the most difficult part of the process. It took me two days to do this myself. One area that seems to be weak for instance is the lack of a registration station next to the ventra machines or at Jewel. At Dominick's when they started they're just 4 you plan they had no kiosks at the store in which to select your items that you wanted. They do now. This is something Cta should have done. There will be alot of riders on monday with ventra cards that don't understand they need registering. Once everyone registers things should run smoother. But still Cta will have new riders that need to register. That's why I vote for permanant registration kiosks at all locations ventra is sold.

[owine]

The one area that ventra or the CTA really botched is the lack of customer support. Even though people will buy cards at Jewel, they still have to register them. Something that is the most difficult part of the process. It took me two days to do this myself. One area that seems to be weak for instance is the lack of a registration station next to the ventra machines or at Jewel. At Dominick's when they started they're just 4 you plan they had no kiosks at the store in which to select your items that you wanted. They do now. This is something Cta should have done. There will be alot of riders on monday with ventra cards that don't understand they need registering. Once everyone registers things should run smoother. But still Cta will have new riders that need to register. That's why I vote for permanant registration kiosks at all locations ventra is sold.

My solution that would never happen:

No retail sales in any form, more vending machines, make registering a step in the purchase process on the machine itself so you can ultimately spend only $5 for your Ventra card with $5 on your transit account.

[jajuan]

The one confusion that does need to be cleared, and this is CTA's fault on this, is the perception that the cards have to be registered to ride. They do not. The registration is for getting the $5 turned back into some form of transit credit either as fare or a pass discount, and for protecting what's loaded on the card in case of loss or theft. If some have ran into problems riding without registering then either that's another glitch for them to fix or they need to correct what they said both on their own website and the Ventra website in that regard.

[Amtrak41]

The one confusion that does need to be cleared, and this is CTA's fault on this, is the perception that the cards have to be registered to ride. They do not. The registration is for getting the $5 turned back into some form of transit credit either as fare or a pass discount, and for protecting what's loaded on the card in case of loss or theft. If some have ran into problems riding without registering then either that's another glitch for them to fix or they need to correct what they said both on their own website and the Ventra website in that regard.

Yes, that drove me into a snit for a few hours last week.

[BusHunter]

That might be why some are getting Into trouble with negative balances. They put less than $7.25 on a card and fail to register it.Then they expect to ride and ventra obliges. A good question would be what if someone rides pace with a 7 day cta pass. Will ventra let you ride but secretly charge you a pace fare? There may still be alot of pitfalls to watch out for for users of ventra.

[Busjack]

What about it is deceptive? To me, as I said, the "same as cash" mantra applies to the concept. What about it do you find deceptive?

Why don't you look at the conversation about 3 weeks ago? There seems to be no point repeating it.

[Busjack]

My solution that would never happen:

No retail sales in any form, more vending machines, make registering a step in the purchase process on the machine itself so you can ultimately spend only $5 for your Ventra card with $5 on your transit account.

Not a solution. Why don't you go to the Ventra map, find all the locations, both suburban and city that are not within 1/4 mile of a rail station, then go to the Pace minutes on a cost of a machine and multiply it all out.

Don't forget that the only alternative is paying full fare without a transfer on a bus.

Let's also remember that they lied about waiving the $5 fee during the rollout. Are you going to start an argument about that, too?

And if you think the problem is the users, check out that the CTA Tattler again posted the registration process, including difference between the 3 types of codes, and then see this comment:

This system is the fail. If you think the users are the problem, check out the Ventra FB page.

[Busjack]

That might be why some are getting Into trouble with negative balances. They put less than $7.25 on a card and fail to register it.Then they expect to ride and ventra obliges. A good question would be what if someone rides pace with a 7 day cta pass. Will ventra let you ride but secretly charge you a pace fare? There may still be alot of pitfalls to watch out for for users of ventra.

Obviously, it would deduct the Pace fare from whatever stored value transit account. Whether there would be a negative balance, or the Pace driver will try to kick you off is another question.

[jajuan]

Not a solution. Why don't you go to the Ventra map, find all the locations, both suburban and city that are not within 1/4 mile of a rail station, then go to the Pace minutes on a cost of a machine and multiply it all out.

Don't forget that the only alternative is paying full fare without a transfer on a bus.

Let's also remember that they lied about waiving the $5 fee during the rollout. Are you going to start an argument about that, too?

And if you think the problem is the users, check out that the CTA Tattler again posted the registration process, including difference between the 3 types of codes, and then see this comment:

Can't Chicago Card and CCP users just do the whole registration process online and bypass the crappy phone process? I mentioned some weeks ago that I did the registration online and it only took about five minutes at most. And since I bought my card directly from a vending machine, I didn't have a confusing instruction insert to contend with. The only instructions I followed were all online and pretty straight forward actually.

[Busjack]

Can't Chicago Card and CCP users just do the whole registration process online and bypass the crappy phone process? I mentioned some weeks ago that I did the registration online and it only took about five minutes at most. And since I bought my card directly from a vending machine, I didn't have a confusing instruction insert to contend with. The only instructions I followed were all online and pretty straight forward actually.

Heck if I know, but the additional comments in the CTA Tattler indicate that an awful lot of people are getting the runaround.

The distinction seems to be that if you buy it in a vending machine, CTA knows you have the card, and you can transfer value from mag cards and CC at the main office or an event in a park, while if you had CCP, activation (not registration) confirms that you received it in the mail, and is necessary to transfer the balance from the CCP account to the Ventra account.

As I noted before in connection that the "waiver of the registration fee was a lie," the CCP users are already registered, just the hitch being that they have to activate their Ventra cards, if they ever get them.

[Kevin]

Can't Chicago Card and CCP users just do the whole registration process online and bypass the crappy phone process?

If you receive a Ventra card in the mail, you must call to activate it. This is an automated process.

The main hiccup people are having with activation seems to be the access code. CCP (and CC?) users got emails in advance prompting them to create this code. Most probably didn't and others forgot the code after waiting nearly a month for the card to finally arrive. If you forgot the code, or deleted the email without creating it, you're stuck in hotline hell and will need to wait 30-60 minutes on hold to speak to a rep. But you'll probably get disconnected on minute 56 of your 57 minute wait.

The activation process is really no different from activating a credit card, but for credit cards the "access code" is typically the last 4 digits of your SSN.

[Busjack]

...

The activation process is really no different from activating a credit card, but for credit cards the "access code" is typically the last 4 digits of your SSN.

Usually, it is the 3 digits on the signature strip on the back of the card following the 4 digits indicating the last 4 digits of the account number. Real issuers don't want the SSNs hacked.

They also usually check the phone number generated by caller ID against your phone number on file, or ask if you are calling from a different phone.

And some allow activation on line.

[Kevin]

Usually, it is the 3 digits on the signature strip on the back of the card following the 4 digits indicating the last 4 digits of the account number. Real issuers don't want the SSNs hacked.

They also usually check the phone number generated by caller ID against your phone number on file, or ask if you are calling from a different phone.

And some allow activation on line.

I can't remember what I was asked for the last time I activated a credit card by phone, but you're probably right.

[sw4400]

Anyone know if a Senior Citizen can just get a Ventra Card from a retailer? My Mom got a notice months ago about the Ventra Card being sent out in the fall(registered Chicago Card holder) but has yet to receive it in the mail. I tried the 877-Ventra number, but it doesn't seem to work, and the CTA Customer Service line is busy.

I was thinking screw it and buying one from Jewel for her, but only if she'll get reduced fare for it, not the full fare.

[Busjack]

Anyone know if a Senior Citizen can just get a Ventra Card from a retailer? My Mom got a notice months ago about the Ventra Card being sent out in the fall(registered Chicago Card holder) but has yet to receive it in the mail. I tried the 877-Ventra number, but it doesn't seem to work, and the CTA Customer Service line is busy.

I was thinking screw it and buying one from Jewel for her, but only if she'll get reduced fare for it, not the full fare.

Apparently the only way a senior gets a reduced fare on other than a cash basis is if the RTA (not the CTA) sends her a card and the fare is preloaded onto that card (RTA page, which says the process will continue through the end of November).

[owine]

Why don't you look at the conversation about 3 weeks ago? There seems to be no point repeating it.

Will read back later tonight.

[owine]

If you receive a Ventra card in the mail, you must call to activate it. This is an automated process.

The main hiccup people are having with activation seems to be the access code. CCP (and CC?) users got emails in advance prompting them to create this code. Most probably didn't and others forgot the code after waiting nearly a month for the card to finally arrive. If you forgot the code, or deleted the email without creating it, you're stuck in hotline hell and will need to wait 30-60 minutes on hold to speak to a rep. But you'll probably get disconnected on minute 56 of your 57 minute wait.

The activation process is really no different from activating a credit card, but for credit cards the "access code" is typically the last 4 digits of your SSN.

Usually, it is the 3 digits on the signature strip on the back of the card following the 4 digits indicating the last 4 digits of the account number. Real issuers don't want the SSNs hacked.

They also usually check the phone number generated by caller ID against your phone number on file, or ask if you are calling from a different phone.

And some allow activation on line.

I can't remember what I was asked for the last time I activated a credit card by phone, but you're probably right.

Kevin is correct on this one, I just activated a new debit card last week and was asked for the last 4 of my SSN.

The goal of phone activation is to confirm that you received the card and that it is in possession of the actual cardholder. The idea being that if Johnny receives Joey's card, Johnny cannot activate it because he does not know Joey's personal information. If it was just the three digit code on the back, Johnny could activate and use a card that was not his that he somehow intercepted before Joey received it. The "challenge" they ask can range from anything from SSN to birthday to checking account number to home phone number. I have also seen systems that just confirm you are calling from a "known phone" using caller ID, but less of those since caller ID spoofing became more popular.