Armitage Derailment

[Amtrak41]

OK. We have 48 year old R32's and 44 year old R42's. Their mid-life rebuild was 25 years ago. Seldom with flat wheels.

[chicagopcclcar]

Flat wheels are a common occurrence as the wheels get more and more miles on them. It's the lack of maintenance and upkeep to watch for these and repair/replace them. The 3200's are less likely than the 2200's, 2400's and 2600's because of age. They are the newest D/C-powered railcars with less miles than their other D/C counterparts. But now as they are coming into the 20-year age bracket, flat spots are more and more likely, requiring more maintenance and upkeep to watch for it. The railcar that derailed was 2951-2952, a 1985 Budd unit which is now 28 years old. The derailments at Granville last year were 2711-2712, a 1982 Budd unit which was 30 years old then, and the second derailment was 2537-2538 and 2803-2804 as the unit that caused it(only one, not both, but the pictures were inconclusive as to which) 2537-2538 is a 1978 Boeing-Vertol unit that was 34 years old at the time, and 2803-2804 is a 1983 Budd unit that was 29 years old at the time.

Are you saying the CTA has said that "flat wheels" caused each of these derailments?

[trainman8119]

CTA didn't say anything, these are just theories. Flat wheels occur with wear, but also because of braking issues in which the shoes flatten spots on the wheels. It is common in railroad circles and often hard braking will create flat spots. So if you have cowboys running these trains who like to fly into a station and apply the brakes hard, there is a likelihood that flat spots will be created. If you have brake issues in which a shoe does not pull away from a wheel, it can create flat spots. It doesn't matter if the car is a 2200, 2400, 2600, 3200 or 5000, it happens on all of them.

[chicagopcclcar]

You do realize that CTA rail cars do not have brake shoes. Friction braking on CTA vehicles engages at and below 4 MPH.

[Busjack]

CTA didn't say anything, these are just theories. ...

And they definitely won't unless the federal government investigates all of these "mishaps."

I had made the prediction on the CTA Tattler that the rapid transit system would be rendered in operable, say within 5 years. While I admitted a bit of hyperbole,the combination of the slow zones not disappearing and these trains getting immobilized by either derailing or fouling the switches is going to bring the system to its knees, eventually.

[sw4400]

Are you saying the CTA has said that "flat wheels" caused each of these derailments?

I'm not saying that. In the post I replied to here...

Why does CTA have such an issue with flat wheels ?

I'd say the 3200's are less likely to have them, but overall, it is much like the 1970-'s-80's maintenance malaise in NYCTA.

Amtrak41 was asking why CTA has an issue with flat wheels. As far as the Granville Derailments go and the one at 59th and Prairie, those were caused by a switch being split somehow, the CTA already mentioned that.

Here trainman8119 mentioned the possibility of flat wheels being the cause

I'm thinking the switch did not move. What happens a lot of the time is that there is a wheel problem with the car. Sometimes a flat wheel (CTA cars do thump a lot) or what is called a high flange. The flange is what keeps the wheel on the rail. When the round is off often times, the wheel "picks the switch". If a wheel is out of round or the flange is cracked or over worn, it may catch the switch even if it is lined correctly and cause a derailment.

Busjack made mention here about the wood being splintered. He really didn't mention his opinion on what might have caused it. He did mention about the signaling system needing to be fixed, but I think because the derailed car damaged a control box and a signal light. So I'm not going to put words into his mouth and say that he was thinking flat wheels or even signal/switching issues.

The news reports had something about the signalling system had to be fixed before they resumed service.

Other than that, there is no indication whether that is cause or effect. Looks like the wheels splintered something.

I think it was another switch issue. But, I'd just be theorizing based on the two Granville derailments, the 59th and Prairie one and this one based on how close a switch track was to the derailed car. But trainman8119 brought up a valid point about flat wheels possibly being the cause. Only an investigation by the CTA will determine the cause and whether or not they make the results public.

[ryanbytes]

3200s have their share of flat spots. I've lived next to the Kedzie Brown line stop for the last few years and there's been a big increase in flat spots over the past year. It's bad enough that my wife, somebody that is not transit crazy like me, has noticed. I can't say every train has a car with flat spots but more often than not there are a couple cars per train with thumpers. Some are bad enough to cause a vibration in the house.

[Amtrak41]

Speaking of flat wheels, LIRR's 67-ton Bombardier M-7 MU's had lots of flat wheels early in their career. So much so, that while on the Atlantic Avenue el in Brooklyn, they were setting off (cheap) car alarms !

[chicagopcclcar]

In the Granville Red Line derailment here that was caused by a train splitting a switch, only one car actually went to a different track while the others remained on the correct track. Even the Derailment at 59th that really came close to having a train dangle off that embankment at 59th & Prairie only really had one train go onto a different track for the same reason... split switch. The second car started to derail because there was no more give on those stretchy-things(my technical term for the straps that hold the married pairs together ) and the train was still moving.

Flat spot on the wheel is likely not able to rule out, but I think the split switch possibility is a greater likely of being the cause. I'm sure CTA pulls sets of these cars out of service every few months for safety inspections, especially after that Blue Line derailment that the NTSB said was the CTA's fault for negligent maintenance in 2006.

My first question to readers here is....Do you know what causes flat wheels on CTA cars?? Now Trainman 8119 stated one cause, but he assumed CTA has brake shoes. He hasn't gotten back yet with a followup. So his reasoning doesn't hold water.

Your post mentions Granville and 59th St. Jct. I have no comment whatsoever on Granville......but 59th????? And you linked to my careful explanation of the events that there was NO SPLIT SWITCH at 59th. Evidently my explanation wasn't clear enough....I can't see how anyone could not come away with a clear understanding after reading my explanation. And you linked to it but you're still saying "split switch" in 2013. I'll repeat...THERE WAS NO SPLIT SWITCH at 59th St. Jct. incident. No switch moved, turned over, changed position, changed routing. What happened was the train went through a trailing crossover switch that was aligned against it. The train derailed, broke the crossover switch in the process. The derailed train then went through the facing switch leading to Englewood, which was lined straight/normal (to Cottage Grove), but the train being derailed already, broke that switch. The already derailed second car got tangled up in the broken facing switch and headed onto the diverging track, snapping the drawbar. The remaining two cars never reached the facing switch but they were derailed by the broken crossover switch. I was told all four cars derailed on the broken crossover switch but the NTSB says only the first two and the last car derailed on the crossover switch.

[sw4400]

I've seen 3200's take off from stations where some of the wheels are spinning like a cars would in deep snow. That to me might cause these flat spots.

With regard to 59th and Prairie, I just read the old Tribune article and it states the motorman when through a switch that was not aligned on his track causing the derailment. Signal was red, he went through it.... his fault or not, that sounds like a split switch to me. Link to terminology:

Tribune article

Split Switch

A term referring to the condition that exists at a switch when one pair of wheels under a car follows a course different from all other wheels under the car, generally resulting in a derailment.

[Busjack]

...With regard to 59th and Prairie, ...

I don't know whether this is worth bringing up again. There was badgering about this before, and as I noted above, the Wolverine Transportation Safety Board has not offered an explanation for the second Granville fouling of the crossover or the Armitage derailment.

[ryanbytes]

I've seen 3200's take off from stations where some of the wheels are spinning like a cars would in deep snow. That to me might cause these flat spots.

This happens on the southbound side at the Western brown station a lot. The track takes a a good beating too. There are always flakes of metal hanging off of the rail head.

[sw4400]

I don't know whether this is worth bringing up again. There was badgering about this before, and as I noted above, the Wolverine Transportation Safety Board has not offered an explanation for the second Granville fouling of the crossover or the Armitage derailment.

I agree. I read the back and forth banter about this. I just brought it up for the record that it is my judgment that the 59th and Prairie derailment was the cause of a "Operator-error" split switch. The Granville incidents were "Track malfunction" split switches. But all were split switches, human error or not. This is the only time I will bring it up just to Amtrak41 and trainman8119. That was the intention of discussing all these derailments. The North Side Main Line derailment involving 3351-3352 a few years back was the same thing... split switch, whether it was human error or not.

[chicagopcclcar]

I've seen 3200's take off from stations where some of the wheels are spinning like a cars would in deep snow. That to me might cause these flat spots.

With regard to 59th and Prairie, I just read the old Tribune article and it states the motorman when through a switch that was not aligned on his track causing the derailment. Signal was red, he went through it.... his fault or not, that sounds like a split switch to me. Link to terminology:

Tribune article

Split Switch

A term referring to the condition that exists at a switch when one pair of wheels under a car follows a course different from all other wheels under the car, generally resulting in a derailment.

The wheel spinning would tend to equalize the wear, not concentrate the wear in short measurements. False. Flat spots are caused during braking more so than accelerating.

The Tribune article would be the last evidence I would refer to. For instance, how many switches were involved. The Tribune doesn't say, does it. I'll ask you the same question....How many switches were involved.

As to your definition, a "split switch" has to occur on a switch that WAS properly aligned in the beginning and one or more wheels/trucks takes a route different. And for your definition of "split switch" to conform, the wheels must be correctly on rails. Before I can go further, I must have your view as to the number of switches and their involvement.

[jajuan]

Oh good grief already. WHATEVER the term for what happened at 59th and Prairie, the fact remains that CTA has had a relatively high number of derailments overall in the span of just a few years. I for one think it's more important to be concerned with how the CTA gets that reduced back down to a statistical norm than bellyaching over what the heck the term is for one derailment in particular. The average customer quite frankly DOES NOT CARE. They are all too likely more concerned with derailments, whatever their cause and whatever the proper term is for any given one, not becoming part of the norm when they get on the L.

[Busjack]

... I for one think it's more important to be concerned with how the CTA gets that reduced back down to a statistical norm than bellyaching over what the heck the term is for one derailment in particular. ...

And whether anyone at CTA implemented the recommendations of the NTSB report on the Blue Line subway derailment and fire, which besides showing bad maintenance practices, documented the lax attitude of then CTA employees. With the number of incidents lately, one has to doubt that.

[chicagopcclcar]

Oh good grief already. WHATEVER the term for what happened at 59th and Prairie, the fact remains that CTA has had a relatively high number of derailments overall in the span of just a few years. I for one think it's more important to be concerned with how the CTA gets that reduced back down to a statistical norm than bellyaching over what the heck the term is for one derailment in particular. The average customer quite frankly DOES NOT CARE. They are all too likely more concerned with derailments, whatever their cause and whatever the proper term is for any given one, not becoming part of the norm when they get on the L.

It is important because the person who first raised the issue of what happened at 59th and Prairie included incorrect information. Now if you don't feel it important to correct misinformation, that's your prerogative The correct information was supplied. If you still doubt that I am correct, there is also the NTSB. In short, there is no need to guess. I don't think "the average" customer is on this forum. I thought the posters here were above "the average" and wanted to know more. Am I wrong?

[jajuan]

It is important because the person who first raised the issue of what happened at 59th and Prairie included incorrect information. Now if you don't feel it important to correct misinformation, that's your prerogative The correct information was supplied. If you still doubt that I am correct, there is also the NTSB. In short, there is no need to guess. I don't think "the average" customer is on this forum. I thought the posters here were above "the average" and wanted to know more. Am I wrong?

Well since we want to bring it to who's on the forum, the average forum member isn't an expert on the ins and outs of rail operations. So my point that at this point still stands that in the here and now the importance of getting any one of these derailments under control takes precedence over having yet another back and forth over what the heck the right term is for one derailment. Since none of the rest of us works for CTA, it's pretty fair to say that the correct terminologies and causes are more important to have straight on THEIR side of the equation. For the rest of us it's more an educational item. Sometimes you just have to know when to pick your battles and when it works better to just let some things go. Now yes you provided an explanation for what the deal was at 59th, but if he refuses to take your info and still wants to make his own determination, why keep it going with the back and forth again especially when the thumbs up on your post repeating what you provided before means there are some who see what you're sharing and agrees it makes sense?

[chicagopcclcar]

Well since we want to bring it to who's on the forum, the average forum member isn't an expert on the ins and outs of rail operations. So my point that at this point still stands that in the here and now the importance of getting any one of these derailments under control takes precedence over having yet another back and forth over what the heck the right term is for one derailment. Since none of the rest of us works for CTA, it's pretty fair to say that the correct terminologies and causes are more important to have straight on THEIR side of the equation. For the rest of us it's more an educational item. Sometimes you just have to know when to pick your battles and when it works better to just let some things go. Now yes you provided an explanation for what the deal was at 59th, but if he refuses to take your info and still wants to make his own determination, why keep it going with the back and forth again especially when the thumbs up on your post repeating what you provided before means there are some who see what you're sharing and agrees it makes sense?

Excellent response and it has my respect. As for the OP, as a teacher I am not going to give up on him.

[trainman8119]

My first question to readers here is....Do you know what causes flat wheels on CTA cars?? Now Trainman 8119 stated one cause, but he assumed CTA has brake shoes.

To reply to your statement, no, I was not aware of that, I will concede that. I threw it out as a way to flatten wheels. Also, I should correct what I was referring to in regards to a high flange. If the flange went bad, it could PICK the switch (not split the switch) causing a derailment.

[chicagopcclcar]

To reply to your statement, no, I was not aware of that, I will concede that. I threw it out as a way to flatten wheels. Also, I should correct what I was referring to in regards to a high flange. If the flange went bad, it could PICK the switch (not split the switch) causing a derailment.

Thank you for responding. Are you from out of town? I might know your local system's characteristics. CTA trains don't use air brakes at all..entirely dynamic braking with a friction brake for parking.

[trainman8119]

Thank you for responding. Are you from out of town? I might know your local system's characteristics. CTA trains don't use air brakes at all..entirely dynamic braking with a friction brake for parking.

Highly local. Work for Metra.

[owine]

Noticed a switch wedge in the switch from SB Red to SB Brown/Purple just North of Armitage which appeared to be the switch in question last week.

[chicagopcclcar]

Noticed a switch wedge in the switch from SB Red to SB Brown/Purple just North of Armitage which appeared to be the switch in question last week.

Wedged switch points would be standard operating procedures in any case where damage had been done to switch or to signaling components pending final repairs. The wedges insure safe operation of trains through the incident area in the meantime. A little harder to discern would be track trips pinned in the lowered position. Operators would note both actions in their communications with rail control should any such communications be necessary. Nothing out of the ordinary here.