Autonomous Buses and Other Autonomous Vehicles

[Busjack]

On 5/8/2018 at 3:55 PM, Pace831 said:

Some information has leaked on the pedestrian fatality. Allegedly the car did detect her presence, but misidentified her as a "false positive".

A Tribune article on the NTSB preliminary report indicates that the scenario makes no sense, in that the explanation is that

...emergency braking is not enabled while Uber's cars are under computer control, "to reduce the potential for erratic vehicle behavior."

Instead, Uber relies on a human backup driver to intervene. The system, however, is not designed to alert the driver.

If this is the case, the system is useless. At least Toyota Safety Sense alerts Jan before her baby bump bumps into the sign.

[Pace831]

6 hours ago, Busjack said:

A Tribune article on the NTSB preliminary report indicates that the scenario makes no sense, in that the explanation is that

...emergency braking is not enabled while Uber's cars are under computer control, "to reduce the potential for erratic vehicle behavior."

Instead, Uber relies on a human backup driver to intervene. The system, however, is not designed to alert the driver.

If this is the case, the system is useless. At least Toyota Safety Sense alerts Jan before her baby bump bumps into the sign.

I agree that it is effectively useless at this point. The car will either provide a ride that is interrupted with many false alarms, or not stop when it should. This is why autonomous vehicles will not be seen on a large scale anytime soon.

The most telling part of the article is that Uber had announced they would end testing in Arizona the day before the report. It's like they had predicted the findings would not be in their favor and were hoping to avoid some of the bad publicity.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, Pace831 said:

The car will either provide a ride that is interrupted with many false alarms, or not stop when it should. This is why autonomous vehicles will not be seen on a large scale anytime soon.

I thought something was fishy when the original story was that the pedestrian darted in front of the car, but the video showed that she reached the middle of the car.

This hits (pun intended) me as worse than in 1977 when a CTA red cab signal turned out to mean "stop but don't stay stopped" or the crossing signals were turned off at University Park.

I also wonder about the recent instances of Teslas hitting a wall or a jersey barrier.

3 hours ago, Pace831 said:

The most telling part of the article is that Uber had announced they would end testing in Arizona the day before the report. It's like they had predicted the findings would not be in their favor and were hoping to avoid some of the bad publicity.

If there is a causal connection, rest assured the government told them before it released the report.

[BusHunter]

I was reading an article from New Flyer that they have a new innovations center (Nov 2017) in Anniston, Al. In this innovation center they are developing autonomous buses. They claim its a 10 year program. The q and a was interesting cause they were asking about the future of human operators. NF said they (the TA's) will always have someone watching the bus. I dont k ow if they are trying to shift liability away from themselves but that the downside of automation. If something goes wrong....

(I'd put the link but I'm on my phone )

 

[Busjack]

23 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I was reading an article from New Flyer that they have a new innovations center (Nov 2017) in Anniston, Al. In this innovation center they are developing autonomous buses. They claim its a 10 year program. The q and a was interesting cause they were asking about the future of human operators. NF said they (the TA's) will always have someone watching the bus. I dont k ow if they are trying to shift liability away from themselves but that the downside of automation. If something goes wrong....

(I'd put the link but I'm on my phone )

 

It's most likely this one. It talks about placing sensors on 60 LACMTA buses for collision avoidance as a step toward autonomous buses.

BTW, I just got a new car with the sensors (I insisted on back up protection), but I can see Uber's point that it beeps a lot more frequently than what one would expect. But, similar to the Uber incident, I don't see how a 12 ton bus is going to stop in time for some bicyclist in the bus lane.

[artthouwill]

3 minutes ago, Busjack said:

It's most likely this one. It talks about placing sensors on 60 LACMTA buses for collision avoidance as a step toward autonomous buses.

BTW, I just got a new car with the sensors (I insisted on back up protection), but I can see Uber's point that it beeps a lot more frequently than what one would expect. But, similar to the Uber incident, I don't see how a 12 ton bus is going to stop in time for some bicyclist in the bus lane.

It will constantly beep downtownwhich would be annoying.

[BusHunter]

On 6/1/2018 at 1:46 PM, Busjack said:

It's most likely this one. It talks about placing sensors on 60 LACMTA buses for collision avoidance as a step toward autonomous buses.

BTW, I just got a new car with the sensors (I insisted on back up protection), but I can see Uber's point that it beeps a lot more frequently than what one would expect. But, similar to the Uber incident, I don't see how a 12 ton bus is going to stop in time for some bicyclist in the bus lane.

They said it was in development. It is a 5 stage program starting with self braking and the lane keeping assist. Something that the newer cars have. Then its going into automatic steering and more of an automated driving system. 

Can't you turn off the beeping? Probably the bus will have to drive more slowly and be more cautious but a bike is probably going to have to segregated from the traffic. I see automated streets really before I see automated  vehicles cause how can you mix automated with unautomated?

[Busjack]

25 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Can't you turn off the beeping?

I suppose I could if I could figure out the round switch on the steering wheel, but the point of getting the car was the safety assist. Maybe there is some way to decrease the sensitivity, but I would have to read about 600 pages of manual to find it.

Obviously, Uber figured out how to turn off the frontal crash  protection on a Volvo.

[Busjack]

20 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

... but a bike is probably going to have to segregated from the traffic.

Theoretically they are (like in the Loop), but as Rocket J. Squirrel said "that trick never works," such as in the Uber case, someone on meth crossing the road not to get to the other side.

20 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

I see automated streets really before I see automated  vehicles cause how can you mix automated with unautomated?

That's what is eventually contemplated, with WiFi connections between the vehicles, traffic lights, etc. Cars would still need radar and cameras to detect pedestrians and bikes. The question I raise is if the system relies on such communication, how are they going to retrofit all the cars on the road, even if that feature hypothetically becomes standard on 2022 models?

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Theoretically they are (like in the Loop), but as Rocket J. Squirrel said "that trick never works," such as in the Uber case, someone on meth crossing the road not to get to the other side.

That's what is eventually contemplated, with WiFi connections between the vehicles, traffic lights, etc. Cars would still need radar and cameras to detect pedestrians and bikes. The question I raise is if the system relies on such communication, how are they going to retrofit all the cars on the road, even if that feature hypothetically becomes standard on 2022 models?

It's getting possible to do that we have WiFi cities that are completely wireless. That's where we are headed. 

I'm surprised you wanted the driver assist. My car is a 2016 and I've looked all over and no one really takes the driver assist as an option. I've never seen my car with one even though it's an option.  People I talk with on the subject claim they don't want an assist because you are not in control that scares people. Even a driverless uber scares people because there is no security. Only what happens on a camera after the fact. You know how they talk of sexual assaults on uber. The riders are fearful of each other too. Do you really want to take a ride with a guy that looks like hulk Hogan by yourself that you don't know? At least a driver is security if something goes down it is there car and they can kick out the unruly passenger. With no one in the car that is not possible.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

I'm surprised you wanted the driver assist. My car is a 2016 and I've looked all over and no one really takes the driver assist as an option. I've never seen my car with one even though it's an option.  People I talk with on the subject claim they don't want an assist because you are not in control that scares people...

Driver assist isn't autonomous car. It isn't like the Tesla and Uber drivers not looking at all. Also, as Jan indicates, it's standard on many cars, and backup cameras are now mandatory.

The main reasons  I got it were 1) on a round trip drive to Florida, I was on the lane marker reflectors on occasion and suddenly got close to stopped traffic, 2) I told the salesperson that I backed into 2 of her brand of cars (about 18 years ago), and 3) when I move into the right lane, someone honks at me, but I'm convinced that it is the jerk aggressive drivers around here rather than I cut someone off.

 

I had a similar scare a week ago on the crazy Elmhurst Road I-90 overpass. I  stopped at a yellow light at the far crossover, and a dump truck barreled at me and then  went to the right through the intersection. Again an obvious aggressive, dangerous driver. 

[Busjack]

Metro Magazine has an article that Toledo got a grant for autonomous buses.

Cpl. Klinger hopes it does not crash into Tony Packo's.

[Pace831]

Uber shuts down its autonomous truck program

[BusHunter]

10 hours ago, Pace831 said:

Uber shuts down its autonomous truck program

The question would be why? Seems like they feel there is no money saved in doing that. Just a 20 dollar an hour salary. The cars can make far more money. Question is I talked with Uber customers who seem to feel skittish in riding in an unmanned vehicle. Who wants to ride with strangers alone with no security? When there is an accident will uber pay for it? Seems alot of times they ride on the shoulders of uber drivers which don't feel protected and get them to pay the accident bill. They have a pretty good deal. People use there own cars and front the liability. Go autonomous and that all changes. Lots of questions but a good subject for a lawyer forum. There was a good convention downtown last year on Autonomous Teslas. I'm sure there will be talk of this. But i'm interested what happens in the liability cases now.

[Pace831]

NHTSA shuts down autonomous "school bus" in Florida

[Busjack]

17 hours ago, Pace831 said:

NHTSA shuts down autonomous "school bus" in Florida

The interesting point is:

Autonomous vehicle definitions get confusing fast, and NHTSA describes this as a “driverless” shuttle. There’s a safety operator on board while students are riding to make sure everything’s running smoothly, but it’s probably a fair choice of words here. Transdev said in the release that the “route and operation will be fully autonomous.”

It's like Nissan advertising that the Rogue has Intelligent Cruise Control, which automatically starts and stops the car in a line of traffic, while Toyota has radar cruise control and all sorts of warnings in its manual that the driver has to stay alert.

Another interesting thing is:

“Eventually, school shuttle service will be available to students and parents on demand, door to door, using an integrated app on their smartphones,”

If it were legal, it would offer a method for Pace to provide On Demand.

[Pace831]

The NTSB released more documents on last year's crash where a pedestrian was killed by an autonomous Uber vehicle. Summary and commentary are here.