A Push To Reinstate The #41 Elston bus

[Ochoa]

You are right it did fail I work out of north park everytime i did 11 lincoln to fullerton I only had 4 people's on the bus the whole trip . Its a new era most people are riding bikes or walking but cta should of this this pilot program in the winter time and made long lincoln run late instead of run hours.

[Busjack]

4 hours ago, Ochoa said:

i did 11 lincoln to fullerton I only had 4 people's on the bus the whole trip

Again reinforces that if the goal were 30, CTA was nowhere close to meeting it. A minivan would suffice. The trial included winter (unless 14 months in Chicago doesn't, and it does), and adding more service hours would have just put it further in the hole.

[andrethebusman]

Think about this - since the 64 was extended to Pavilion, how much new territory has CTA opened? Some small extensions, like 82 and 96 to Lincolnwood Town Center, but otherwise it seems everywhere there is need for service there already is service.

[Busjack]

54 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

Think about this - since the 64 was extended to Pavilion, how much new territory has CTA opened? Some small extensions, like 82 and 96 to Lincolnwood Town Center, but otherwise it seems everywhere there is need for service there already is service.

True, and besides that, while CTA used to poach Pace territory, it is now retreating (based on the Crowd Reduction Plan and North Shore Coordination Plan). There are the experiments on 31 and 39, and contractual commitments to serve Walmart, but not much else.

[andrethebusman]

CTA never "poached" Pace. The suburban routes such as 21B, 17, 97 dated back to 1920's CRT. 54 and 58 dated to 1910 when CSL got part of Chicago Consolidated. CSL only left the city in one place - 63rd to Archer.

[Busjack]

17 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

CTA never "poached" Pace. The suburban routes such as 21B, 17, 97 dated back to 1920's CRT. 54 and 58 dated to 1910 when CSL got part of Chicago Consolidated. CSL only left the city in one place - 63rd to Archer.

The latter may be true, but you are also stuck in the 1920s, and CTA has celebrated its 70th anniversary since then. I'm referring to such stuff as overrunning 212 with 205 (to be reversed in the next 2 years), overrunning 307 with 90, resulting in half of 307 being cut back to South Blvd., as starters. I don't think 54 ever ran to Old Orchard. if you look at your "records," "never" isn't true.

[andrethebusman]

What I mentioned was 54 ran on West Towns owned track Roosevelt to 25th, 58 did same Ogden/Kenton to 25th/Laramie. Running 86 and 90 to Lake St was doing something that should have been done in 1930's, but could not for political reasons. There are several other lines that should go further west, namely 12 and 20. If this had been done decades ago, these would have been major services. Remember the original idea was CTA was to take over the suburban bus outfits, but in the early 50's the suburbans were still (somewhat) profitable, and demanded too much money for CTA to pay to take them over. So nothing was done until 1974, when everthing was falling apart. And by then the suburbs wanted nothing to do with CTA. So they went hog wild until 1982, when the whole thing had to be reorganized. 

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

What I mentioned was 54 ran on West Towns owned track Roosevelt to 25th, 58 did same Ogden/Kenton to 25th/Laramie. Running 86 and 90 to Lake St was doing something that should have been done in 1930's, but could not for political reasons. There are several other lines that should go further west, namely 12 and 20. If this had been done decades ago, these would have been major services. Remember the original idea was CTA was to take over the suburban bus outfits, but in the early 50's the suburbans were still (somewhat) profitable, and demanded too much money for CTA to pay to take them over. So nothing was done until 1974, when everthing was falling apart. And by then the suburbs wanted nothing to do with CTA. So they went hog wild until 1982, when the whole thing had to be reorganized. 

Again, that may be the case, but has nothing to do with what happened in this millennium, which you seem to have ignored. You are going back to 1907 stuff when County Traction was formed, not 2003. 54 in Cicero was never Pace territory; 212 in Evanston was from 1974 (Nortran) to 2005. In short, CTA poached.

If your memory needs refreshing, look at Chicago Transit, and Railfan which says:

Discontinued 3/20/2005 as part of a major restructuring of north suburban Pace routes, with segment west of Old Orchard transferred to route #422. Segment east of Old Orchard not replaced, as redundant to route #208 and recently expanded CTA route #205.

Given my County Traction reference to 1907, if you are going to say that Chicago Railways had trackage rights to that, that's hooey.

Maybe you can explain to me that when I went to the Lincolnwood workshop on the NS Coordination plan, I talked to someone from CTA who was standing in front of the display board. I know, but I bet you don't.

[andrethebusman]

First of all, I always thought it was a shame CTA never took over suburbans in 1950's. Second, I always thought at least the main suburban lines should be CTA in any event. Not Elgin, Aurora, Waukegan, Joliet, or Metra feeders, but definitely regular routes. This city/suburban split was political, not practical. It is too bad that suburbs basically hate the city.

[Busjack]

14 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

First of all, I always thought it was a shame CTA never took over suburbans in 1950's. Second, I always thought at least the main suburban lines should be CTA in any event. Not Elgin, Aurora, Waukegan, Joliet, or Metra feeders, but definitely regular routes. This city/suburban split was political, not practical. It is too bad that suburbs basically hate the city.

In reverse order:

The essential political problem is that The Machine runs Chicago politics. As has been discussed many times before here, even though the CTA is an independent municipal corporation, Daley II and Emanuel think it is their personal property. This was exemplified by such things as Kruesi proposing the 7 days a week Sunday schedule, which would have eliminated service in the close-in suburbs (after Frank overextended into them), and both he and Claypool distorting the ridership stats, implying that CTA was entitled to 81% of the RTA tax receipts from the 6 county area, not clearly stating that that was based on unlinked trips, not passenger miles.

The one thing Claypool was correct about in the Crowd Reduction Plan was to recognize that CTA was overextended, but he was not transparent about that, not only lying about 11 Lincoln, but not admitting that CTA had coordinated with Pace (Pace later disclosed that). Of course, Claypool's disdain for the public finally caught up with him at the Board of Ed. (Are you aware of that episode?)

So basically, since the mayors have acted like CTA is their personal property, and sububanites don't have a vote in that election, why should they let Kruesi and Claypool screw them over?

While I advocated that the service boards be abolished, I backed off for 2 reasons 1) Carter is more receptive to public input and transparent, and 2) through such things as the North Shore and South Halsted Coordination Projects, CTA is willing to coordinate.

As far as what you wish would have happened in the 1950s, that's currently irrelevant. I suppose you don't have the answer to the bond indenture conditions CTA could not meet, but unlike what most public employees think, money is not an unlimited commodity, and unlike the 2 individuals I mentioned above said, it isn't up to the suburbs to bail out the city's financial distress. The RTA got Carter to acknowledge that last month.

  

[andrethebusman]

Many cities have this same city vs suburb problem. Especially older ones that went thru major white flight in the 1960's and 70's. In 1980's Chicagoland, the suburbs were still mostly populated by white former city residents who left and took a great deal of hate for the city with them. That has changed more recently, but still many suburbanites have a great deal of suspicion about anything to do with the central city. Doesn't matter to them who runs Chicago, they still won't like them. 

Municipal borders are just lines on a map. Is there any real difference which side of Howard St you are on?

[artthouwill]

19 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

 

Municipal borders are just lines on a map. Is there any real difference which side of Howard St you are on?

I can't  say for Howard, but there's a  big difference along Austin separating  Chicago  from Oak Park.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, andrethebusman said:

Many cities have this same city vs suburb problem. Especially older ones that went thru major white flight in the 1960's and 70's. In 1980's Chicagoland, the suburbs were still mostly populated by white former city residents who left and took a great deal of hate for the city with them. That has changed more recently, but still many suburbanites have a great deal of suspicion about anything to do with the central city. Doesn't matter to them who runs Chicago, they still won't like them. 

Municipal borders are just lines on a map. Is there any real difference which side of Howard St you are on?

In light of the detailed explanation I gave you, which you seem unable to rebut, your racism is not called for.

And if "municipal borders are just lines on a map," why isn't the mayor of Skokie in charge of West Rogers Park?

[andrethebusman]

I am talking about historical realities. You cannot deny that white flight happened. You also can't deny that it fostered a lot of anti-city animosity. As for West Rogers Park vs Skokie, maybe everybody would be better off if Chicago went to a "regional community" government that some cities such as Jacksonville FL have adopted. Eliminates much unnecessary duplication of municipal services such as police, fire, sewers, etc separate in each little town. 

[Busjack]

27 minutes ago, andrethebusman said:

I am talking about historical realities. You cannot deny that white flight happened. You also can't deny that it fostered a lot of anti-city animosity. As for West Rogers Park vs Skokie, maybe everybody would be better off if Chicago went to a "regional community" government that some cities such as Jacksonville FL have adopted. Eliminates much unnecessary duplication of municipal services such as police, fire, sewers, etc separate in each little town. 

What you say is  not self evident, while everything I said was documented. And what you said was racist. It wasn't white flight to such suburbs as Blue Island, Olympia Fields, Calumet City, etc. but it was flight. In the meantime, the white milennials are moving back. Maybe they should quit riding Uber and take the bus,

Maybe we can talk metrogov after the city cleans up its own governance and fiscal mess and the area is properly apportioned. But what I said about Claypool is recent, easily documented history. Explain it.

[andrethebusman]

Claypool was a hack. So were all the other "presidents" since the title was changed from "general manager". A general manager is the "person in charge". A president is the "political person in charge". Started with the developer, Belcaster.  The only two in recent times that were not total hacks were David Mossena, who was made to take the job and take the heat for the big service cuts so he could later get the job he really wanted, head of the Metro Expo Authority. His successor Frank Krusei, was supposed to be just a hack, but actually started to show he had some idea what was going on, so he got canned, and was replaced by Huberman, another career political manager. Last real transit man in charge was Al Savage, who got booted for being "weak", i.e. not kow-towing to politicians enough. 

Yeah, one sad litany. Can't deny it. Thank goodness the second-level management who really run the place day to day are mostly competent, career people.When all is said and done, on a day to day level the place runs pretty good, except where political decisions get involved and muck things up.

[andrethebusman]

21 hours ago, Busjack said:

What you say is  not self evident, while everything I said was documented. And what you said was racist. It wasn't white flight to such suburbs as Blue Island, Olympia Fields, Calumet City, etc. but it was flight. In the meantime, the white milennials are moving back. Maybe they should quit riding Uber and take the bus,

Maybe we can talk metrogov after the city cleans up its own governance and fiscal mess and the area is properly apportioned. But what I said about Claypool is recent, easily documented history. Explain it.

White flight started in the 1950's, and most certainly to Blue Island, Olympia Fields, Calumet City. Later on, the next wave went from these inner suburbs to further-out places. I am old enough and wandered about long ago enough to know that these suburbs mentioned were very different in the early 60's, and went thru much the same kinds of changes large parts of the city did in the 1970's and 80's. History is not "racist". Compare then and now, and if it is different, that is a fact, not a value judgement. Yes, what happened was motivated absolutely by racism, but that does not change what happened.

[Busjack]

 

2 hours ago, andrethebusman said:

Claypool was a hack. So were all the other "presidents" since the title was changed from "general manager".

So are you saying that suburban political leaders shouldn't accede to those political hacks and you are agreeing with me, or is that hate?

 

1 hour ago, andrethebusman said:

White flight started in the 1950's, and most certainly to Blue Island, Olympia Fields, Calumet City. Later on, the next wave went from these inner suburbs to further-out places. I am old enough and wandered about long ago enough to know that these suburbs mentioned were very different in the early 60's, and went thru much the same kinds of changes large parts of the city did in the 1970's and 80's. History is not "racist". Compare then and now, and if it is different, that is a fact, not a value judgement. Yes, what happened was motivated absolutely by racism, but that does not change what happened.

 

However, it seems like you are still living at the latest, in 1960. It is 2018 now. The flight I was talking about was in the 1990s, 2000s. The suburbs I mentioned are now predominantly Black.

Considering how unconnected you appear to be, do you even live in the Chicago area anymore? You mentioned about working out of FG, but I think your Jacksonville reference may disclose your current situation.

[Busjack]

I wanted to add something encouraging. Based on the numbers in the press release, 31 is doing better (as of Nov. 2017) with essentially two buses than the 11 extension ever did with 6 additional buses. That may be one reason the proposal was made to the board to extend the pilot.

[andrethebusman]

You are right - I am far, far away now. Vero Beach FL to be exact. Been here about a year now. Things haven't changed that much that fast. 

I have said, and will always say, that when all is said and done CTA, despite the hacks at the very top, is a very well operating system. Way better than even most large systems. 

I am having a problem figuring out something: Do you have this idea that what is today always has been? Things have changed dramatically over the years. The older a person is the more changes they have seen. Somebody in their 20's or 30's cannot hope to comprehend 50 years ago, any more than I would be able to comprehend the 1920's. I wasn't there. But I saw the last 64 in person, I saw the changes, good and bad, and what I saw then influences how I see things today. I'm not going to say you interpret today wrong, just that based on experience, I interpret them differently.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, andrethebusman said:

. I'm not going to say you interpret today wrong, just that based on experience, I interpret them differently.

The point of difference is that your facts re stuff basically after 2000 are incorrect. Not a matter of interpretation.

[andrethebusman]

26 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The point of difference is that your facts re stuff basically after 2000 are incorrect. Not a matter of interpretation.

Oh? How be that? In fact, that is when my involvement became the closest. Obviously you lived and traveled about in different parts of the system than I did, and saw different things than I did. I mostly hung around the south side and south suburbs.

[karayoung]

I am a recent (2 years) transplant to the Logan Square area, and upon moving here I was stunned to find out that there isn't a bus that runs on Elston.  Looking at the sign that TaylorTank1229 posted above, though, I'm not sure that the #41 is what I would be looking for.  I'm looking for an Elston bus that would run south of Belmont, to catch all of the development that is happening to the south of Diversey.  A bus that turns at Belmont and then runs down Clybourn is not going to work for the Bucktown/Logan Square area.  There is so much development in this area, a bus that helps people get there along Elston, would be a huge boon to growth in this corridor, especially now that they've completed the reconstruction of Elston itself.  The distances that need to be walked from the few bus-stops that are "nearby" are daunting to pedestrians, especially in inclement weather.  This area is already car-friendly, and a bus would help to make it pedestrian-friendly as well.

[BusHunter]

Probably what makes better sense is to just have the #50 Damen serve elston from Damen to Logan blvd. Then turn back via diversey. I believe Andre suggested this also or something similar. Damen serves nothing going over the Chicago river bridge unless you want to say Costco. 

As far as Clybourn a bus is needed south of belmont. I was doing some driving on 31st and it escapes me how it can be successful but it beats the #39 that once it turns off Wentworth and goes west picks up no one to basically the orange line.

Clybourn has the new city development and Target menards jewels best buy costco aldi Petsmart to name a few attractions. Its time for it to get a bus. I can't help but wonder if some of the fullerton red line #74 crowd would be less if there was more service in the area. Clybourn makes sense elston i still need convincing 

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Clybourn has the new city development and Target menards jewels best buy costco aldi Petsmart to name a few attractions.

The essential problem is that people don't ride buses to big boxes unless the buses pull in. One thing that proves this is that Walmart does have the buses pull in or nearer than the nearest parking space,* including at 83rd and Pullman Park. Now, if said merchants paid for a trolley replica....**

_____________

* Despite the activists claiming about 10 years ago, during the "keep Walmart out of the city at all costs" campaigns, that Walmart was not transit friendly.

**However, I don't think that many people take their IKEA Soingesand double bed on the Schaumburg trolley, even though IKEA has a sign that you can take it to the NWTC and get a bus to the Purple Line, and I don't think they are going to take much from Menards or Costco on the bus, either. Better chance on the Little Journey stuff from Aldi.