Bombard Delay??? (Say It Isn't So)

[BusHunter]

Well looks like Bombardier has really stepped into it now. According to the Montreal Gazette NY has shut them out of a contract for up to 1,600 cars. Not a good day to be working for corporate over there.

http://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/bombardier-shut-out-of-n-y-subway-contract-because-of-poor-performance-report

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

28 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Well looks like Bombardier has really stepped into it now. According to the Montreal Gazette NY has shut them out of a contract for up to 1,600 cars. Not a good day to be working for corporate over there.

http://montrealgazette.com/business/local-business/bombardier-shut-out-of-n-y-subway-contract-because-of-poor-performance-report

This appears to be pertaining to the upcoming order of the R211s, as the company R179s are already testing on the system. Still, obviously not good news. Losing the 7000 Series order here is one thing, but losing a potential 1600 car order for the largest subway system in the US is especially worrisome. Not to mention they appear to have lost some trust with the TTC in their home country up north.

[Busjack]

Clicking on a link  in that article, it appears that Bombardier is not only in trouble with TTC, but also with Metrolinx over LRTs. The bottom line there is that Ontario entered into a contract with  Alsthom (long time since we  heard from them), either  to cover for Bombardier if, through  a dispute resolution process, the province gets out of the contract,  or additional cars.

As @MTRSP1900-CTA3200 indicates, I wonder what getting dropped by MTA and CTA does for employment in Plattsburgh. The  LRTs would have been assembled in Thunder Bay.

An aside: the response to the protest confirmed that the 5000s were late, but there wasn't any indication that CTA assesed the penalty. Remember, the 8 cars were not said to be from that, but from CTA saying there was some saving due to equipment choices (I assume no airport express cars).

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

10 hours ago, Busjack said:

...As @MTRSP1900-CTA3200 indicates, I wonder what getting dropped by MTA annd CTA does for employment in Plattsburgh. The  LRTs would have been assembled in Thunder Bay...

Ignoring the yapping heads in this video and the endless shots of the 5000s, it seems that Plattsburgh also works on the Multilevel Cars for New Jersey and Montreal. However the video is from 2011, and the focus isn't about the products produced by the Plattsburgh plant, so digging around Bombardier's home site may yield better answers.

Edit: They also are working on cars for BART.

[Busjack]

On 8/31/2017 at 8:39 AM, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

Ignoring the yapping heads in this video and the endless shots of the 5000s, it seems that Plattsburgh also works on the Multilevel Cars for New Jersey and Montreal. However the video is from 2011, and the focus isn't about the products produced by the Plattsburgh plant, so digging around Bombardier's home site may yield better answers.

Edit: They also are working on cars for BART.

There was something in a Plattsburgh paper* that it wouldn't have an effect on employment, but nobody believes that.

Somewhat ironic that that video was for recruiting project managers, but production management is apparently what's all messed up, both in Plattsburgh and Thunder Bay.

*Requires cookies.

[BusHunter]

Bombardier is supposed to be a world leader in trains, but there success is more overseas than here. North America just doesn't seem to get along well with there product. Don't know if that's a executive problem or a production one, but the US division is probably hurting now.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Bombardier is supposed to be a world leader in trains, but there success is more overseas than here. North America just doesn't seem to get along well with there product. Don't know if that's a executive problem or a production one, but the US division is probably hurting now.

On the TTC and Metrolinx LRTs, the articles indicated that it was production control problems,such as Mexican parts not  coming in,  and in the   TTC   case, finishing some cars in Toronto because if they finished  them in Thunder Bay, they couldn't get them on the freight train on time. Those  were supposed to be standardized   Bombardier models. It wasn't said how they messed up MTA deliveries, but we know that a foreign part messed up CTA deliveries 

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

Update: NYC has also booted CRRC from bidding because they joint-bid with Bombardier. Looks like more "Alskaw Inc." cars for NYC.

Link to the article.

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

Update: NYC has also booted CRRC from bidding because they joint-bid with Bombardier. Looks like more "Alskaw Inc." cars for NYC.

Link to the article.

Strange that after Bombardier got all over CRRC in Boston and Chicago, they teamed for NYC.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

4 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Strange that after Bombardier got all over CRRC in Boston and Chicago, they teamed for NYC.

I'll have to do more research when I have time, but according to their very own joint venture site, the partnership has existed as its own company since 1998. However, the products on the site relate more to railway coaches and HSR.

Bombardier Sifang Website

[Busjack]

13 hours ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

I'll have to do more research when I have time, but according to their very own joint venture site, the partnership has existed as its own company since 1998. However, the products on the site relate more to railway coaches and HSR.

Bombardier Sifang Website

What that sounds like, though, is one of those 50% Chinese owned enterprises, which is generally a condition for a foreign company to do business in China, sort of like GM  manufacturing cars in China through SAIC-GM. If you click on the products, they are characterized as Bombardier reference vehicles sold to various local Chinese and Tibetan agencies.

It doesn't explain why Bombardier would partner with CRRC on a NY job, especially given representations it made in its CTA protest that it had adequate production capacity in Plattsburgh, and, of course Buy America Act requirements.

[artthouwill]

14 hours ago, Busjack said:

Strange that after Bombardier got all over CRRC in Boston and Chicago, they teamed for NYC.

If you can"t beat em, join em.

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

If you can"t beat em, join em.

I doubt it's that. There has to be a business reason for it (such as NF apparently needing articulated bus assembly capacity to part with about $110 million in value to acquire NABI).

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

I doubt it's that. There has to be a business reason for it (such as NF apparently needing articulated bus assembly capacity to part with about $110 million in value to acquire NABI).

Obviously  it is a business decision.  It's a partnership  and not a merger.  Bombardier is getting desperate after taking some high profile hits recently.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

Bombardier is getting desperate after taking some high profile hits recently.

But it still hasn't been explained why this partnership is in Bombardier's interest. And, obviously, it did not work (or we wouldn't have this topic).

[Busjack]

Doing a quick Google News search, Bombardier is also behind on the BART contract (KTVU; Toronto 680 News Radio).

The common thread in both San Francisco and Toronto is that while Bombardier will have to eat the cost overruns, taxpayers have to pay the cost of keeping the obsolete equipment that was supposed to be replaced in service.

[MetroShadow]

8 hours ago, Busjack said:

Doing a quick Google News search, Bombardier is also behind on the BART contract (KTVU; Toronto 680 News Radio).

The common thread in both San Francisco and Toronto is that while Bombardier will have to eat the cost overruns, taxpayers have to pay the cost of keeping the obsolete equipment that was supposed to be replaced in service.

The BART cars are six months behind plus additional testing delays, but thankfully en route to begin revenue service by Thanksgiving. 

Maybe they should focus on quality versus going for every contract. 

[Busjack]

11 minutes ago, MetroShadow said:

The BART cars are six months behind plus additional testing delays, but thankfully en route to begin revenue service by Thanksgiving. 

Maybe they should focus on quality versus going for every contract. 

I thought the interview on the 680 site with the Bombardier spokesmouth was kind of interesting, if one is into corporate speak evasion. He was real busy talking about global expertise and that minor delays like this happen at all railcar companies and Bombardier will catch up to the schedule. I take it that you (nor anyone) will not be convinced.

[artthouwill]

10 hours ago, Busjack said:

I thought the interview on the 680 site with the Bombardier spokesmouth was kind of interesting, if one is into corporate speak evasion. He was real busy talking about global expertise and that minor delays like this happen at all railcar companies and Bombardier will catch up to the schedule. I take it that you (nor anyone) will not be convinced.

We will get to test that theory when the. 7000s come, though they will be built here.

[Busjack]

40 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

We will get to test that theory when the. 7000s come, though they will be built here.

What indicates the institutional problem is that Bombardier claimed global expertise, but the problems were at both Thunder Bay and Plattsburgh (BART).

What CRRC does, we'll have to wait until about 2020 to find out. But, as the Fox2 commentator noted, once a TA signs a contract, they're stuck, and at least CTA and MTA didn't sign a contract with Bombardier.

[Busjack]

On 10/25/2017 at 11:03 AM, Busjack said:

It doesn't explain why Bombardier would partner with CRRC on a NY job,

This might, though. The Albany Business Review states that CRRC was going to build an assembly plant and test track at Fort Edward NY, about 50 miles north of Albany, but with it looking like Bombardier losing the deal, that might be out of the question. I don't think CRRC needed Bombardier as an entry to the US (note my prior comment on Bombardier getting on CRRC's case in Boston and Chicago), but maybe this was similar to NY bus contracts, that this job was too big for either company to handle. But, in CRRC's case, Bombardier apparently torpedoed them.

Alstom says it makes 60 some percent of the cars, and provides propulsion equipment for the Kawasaki portion.

 

[BusHunter]

On 10/25/2017 at 1:29 PM, artthouwill said:

Obviously  it is a business decision.  It's a partnership  and not a merger.  Bombardier is getting desperate after taking some high profile hits recently.

Maybe this is a way to get bombardier the contract considering they were shut out of it before. They probably dont want to partner with rivals, but its better than the alternative, shut out of the contract with no money earned.

[Busjack]

19 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Maybe this is a way to get bombardier the contract considering they were shut out of it before. They probably dont want to partner with rivals, but its better than the alternative, shut out of the contract with no money earned.

Except you got it backwards. CRRC got shut out when it partnered with Bombardier. See my last post above.

Clicking on the Albany Business Review eventually gets one to the China Daily, which said:

"Under such circumstances, we wouldn't mind building 'competitor-partner' relations with rivals to win bids in certain markets if it's necessary," said Chen Dayong, general manager of CRRC's international business department.

For instance, CRRC and Bombardier agreed in September to expand their relationship and join forces on international bids. They will cooperate to develop the market of New York's aging subway system.

Thus, at least in the Chinese press, the initiative was CRRC's.

 

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

Except you got it backwards. CRRC got shut out when it partnered with Bombardier. See my last post above.

Clicking on the Albany Business Review eventually gets one to the China Daily, which said:

"Under such circumstances, we wouldn't mind building 'competitor-partner' relations with rivals to win bids in certain markets if it's necessary," said Chen Dayong, general manager of CRRC's international business department.

For instance, CRRC and Bombardier agreed in September to expand their relationship and join forces on international bids. They will cooperate to develop the market of New York's aging subway system.

Thus, at least in the Chinese press, the initiative was CRRC's.

 

Maybe Bomardier should stick to building planes, but it has struggled with delays building it's newest aircraft, the C1000.  Sales have been slow 2ith that.

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

Maybe Bomardier should stick to building planes, but it has struggled with delays building it's newest aircraft, the C1000.  Sales have been slow 2ith that.

Also Canada and the U.S. are close to a trade war over Bombardier (e.g. Washington Post). There were also stories that Canada would quit buying Boeing planes for its air force if the tariffs are imposed.