#831 Joliet - Midway

[jesi2282]

Which type of buses operate on route #831?

[trainman8119]

The buses are out of Joliet Heritage Division and are NABI 35 or 40 footers depending on the time of day and/or run. I has seen both 35 and 40's on the route.

[MetroShadow]

I've rode a 35 footer last year, but that was during the 1130 run from Midway.

[qwantae]

I've rode a 35 footer last year, but that was during the 1130 run from Midway.

One time last year, I've saw a Nova Classic on #831 sitting at Midway. On Saturdays, an Orion IV or Nova Classic from Southwest garage runs it.

[rmadisonwi]

You mean Orion VI. The Orion IV was a weird trailer-type vehicle apparently used in some sort of park shuttle service.

[qwantae]

You mean Orion VI. The Orion IV was a weird trailer-type vehicle apparently used in some sort of park shuttle service.

Yeah Orion VI's, Just so confused between all other kinds of Orion's but I like Orion Vs better though, I wish that Pace will order those to replace Retarded NABIs (2400s)

[qwantae]

You mean Orion VI. The Orion IV was a weird trailer-type vehicle apparently used in some sort of park shuttle service.

Yeah Orion VI's, Just so confused between all other kinds of Orion's but I like Orion Vs better though, I wish that Pace will order those to replace Retarded NABIs (2400s)

[Busjack]

... but I like Orion Vs better though, I wish that Pace will order those to replace Retarded NABIs (2400s)

I'm sure you have the $18.2 million to give to Pace to do that before the buses' FTA (see sw, I mentioned it) life expectancy expires. Pace sure doesn't have the capital funds. And Pace is not buying high floor buses. You seem fixated on them. Pace never bought Orion Vs and preferred Orion Is for some reason (probably cheaper, as Pace is always the low bid purchaser).

I predict (having rode on 2658 between Niles and Glenview yesterday on 423, both coming and going) that if Pace orders anything more in the future, it will be more 2600s, since that one seemed to do the job on that part of the route. If Pace gets any more capital funding (such as if the legislature ever passes the RTA and Capital Program bills), Kreskin predicts that the options for 2600s will be exercised, at least to replace the 2272 series, which has exceeded that lifespan.

[qwantae]

I'm sure you have the $18.2 million to give to Pace to do that before the buses' FTA (see sw, I mentioned it) life expectancy expires. Pace sure doesn't have the capital funds. And Pace is not buying high floor buses. You seem fixated on them. Pace never bought Orion Vs and preferred Orion Is for some reason (probably cheaper, as Pace is always the low bid purchaser).

I predict (having rode on 2658 between Niles and Glenview yesterday on 423, both coming and going) that if Pace orders anything more in the future, it will be more 2600s, since that one seemed to do the job on that part of the route. If Pace gets any more capital funding (such as if the legislature ever passes the RTA and Capital Program bills), Kreskin predicts that the options for 2600s will be exercised, at least to replace the 2272 series, which has exceeded that lifespan.

I was told that 831-Joliet will be going only between Orland Square and Joliet, not to Midway. So that means that Joliet passengers travals to Midway (City) would have to transfer to 384 or Future 379 to Midway. 379 probably be the quicker than 384. But I think that it would be better to leave 831 the way it is.

[Busjack]

Why did you quote a previous post, and then write something that has nothing to do with the quote?

As for 831 being cut back, that was discussed in the thread on the restructuring. Pace has had, for many years, passenger counts indicating that 831 was weak.

[pace2322]

I dont know why there keep running 6600s on the 831 i see it ever weekday at 12:58 at Orland Square. And the bus has no seats on it.

[Busjack]

I dont know why there keep running 6600s on the 831 i see it ever weekday at 12:58 at Orland Square. And the bus has no seats on it.

1. Apparently 831 doesn't have many passengers, either, or they wouldn't repeatedly threaten to cut it.
   
2. That may be what Heritage has. Apparently some of the Joliet 6200s are being moved to North Shore (6257 and 6259 seen a couple of days ago). Again, not having been to Joliet recently, I can't confirm from the other end.
   

[pace2322]

So Busjack, Does that mean the 352 doesn't have many passengers. Becasue theres allways a 6600 on it? Boy i must be sleeping on the 352 thats why run 216 get 450 people for 4 trips.

[pace2322]

I'm sure you have the $18.2 million to give to Pace to do that before the buses' FTA (see sw, I mentioned it) life expectancy expires. Pace sure doesn't have the capital funds. And Pace is not buying high floor buses. You seem fixated on them. Pace never bought Orion Vs and preferred Orion Is for some reason (probably cheaper, as Pace is always the low bid purchaser).

I predict (having rode on 2658 between Niles and Glenview yesterday on 423, both coming and going) that if Pace orders anything more in the future, it will be more 2600s, since that one seemed to do the job on that part of the route. If Pace gets any more capital funding (such as if the legislature ever passes the RTA and Capital Program bills), Kreskin predicts that the options for 2600s will be exercised, at least to replace the 2272 series, which has exceeded that lifespan.

Thats Just plan bs. To get a 30ft bus to replace a 40ft what the hell are there smoking. Or who is getting pay off from El Junker.

[Busjack]

So Busjack, Does that mean the 352 doesn't have many passengers. Becasue [sic] theres [sic] allways [sic] a 6600 on it? Boy i [sic] must be sleeping on the 352 thats[sic] why run 216 get [sic] 450 people for 4 trips.

What an exercise in logic.

1. Does the South Cook-Will restructuring state that 352 (other than expressway and Wood St. routings) is supposed to be eliminated?
   
2. Was there a public hearing on eliminating 352 in 2000, as there was for 831 (when, as a result of the hearing, most of the trips were rerouted from Lemont to Orland Square)?
   
3. Didn't you say there is a posting in your garage not to assign a 6600 to 352 or several other routes?
   

Instead of giving me this b.s. why don't you ask your buddings [sic] in Heritage to give us the IBS count for 831, and the productivity per hour number. Also ask them for their current roster and post it here (you have posted the South one).

Are you telling me that other Heritage, Fox, North Shore, and Waukegan routes to which 2423 and 6600 series buses are assigned have as big a load as Halsted? What's your explanation for Aurora and Highland Park once having 6600s and not having them anymore?

Be glad, you might next be assigned a 5500, like on 535, 602, 806, or 808.

[pace2322]

Yea there is a Posting not to used them on the 352,353,355 and 364 but there. What is dum that we have the two 2300s. But we cant used them on the weekends and we are short of big buses. Pace has alot of rules that u wolud not get. I can see if the 2300s broke down everday of the week but there dont. We just had 2325 make a run on the 877 Firday night because we have two 6900s down one with ac the other with a bad motor.

[Busjack]

Yea there is a Posting not to used them on the 352,353,355 and 364 but there.

That answers one question, but not the others. Obviously, you can't support your assertion that because 352 and 831 both use 6600s (the former apparently in violation of a posted policy, but out of necessity), they both have the same passenger load. We know they don't.

Also, why can't you use a 2300 on the weekend, when Northwest and North Shore certainly do?

[Busjack]

Thats [sic] Just plan [sic] bs. To get a 30ft bus to replace a 40ft what the hell are there [sic] smoking. Or who is getting pay off from El Junker.

I think I can formulate a coherent response to a post that isn't. (You do not want to know what I was going to post as a response).

On the bus side, there are at least three facets to Pace:

1. A mass transit system. Basically only South, West, and part of Northwest qualify as that. You work in that portion.
   
2. Various small city and low demand suburban operations.
   
3. Feeders and reverse feeders. Some people think those should be operated under Metra's supervision, and since that portion is the first to be thrown overboard in the Pace doomsday plan, maybe they are right.
   

Of these three, only category #1 has sufficient ridership to justify a 40-foot bus. Except in rare instances (i.e. a school run, Shuttle Bug 631) 2 and 3 do not.

Of course, no garage falls solely within one of these three categories. South has the 450 and 750 series of routes, for which one would suppose the 6600s were intended, but you indicate that they are assigned elsewhere. If one sorted out the reverse feeder routes, North Shore has 13 and North 5, which is a pretty large percentage of the 40-50 buses assigned to each of those garages.

I submit that for categories 2 and 3, a 2600 is sufficient. The seating is the same as a 6600. I previously made the argument (to which no one replied) that maybe 6600s were a mistake in hindsight. If a rear door is necessary, companies like Optima and ElDorado also make a 35 foot version. The argument could be made that those buses are not as sturdy as a heavier duty 35 foot bus, but since you say that all NABIs are junk, so what.

This subthread started with my observation above and in another topic that I rode 2658 on 423 and it seemed to do the job adequately. Let's also remember that North, North Shore, and Heritage have had a mixture of 35 and 40 foot buses under Pace management, and River and Fox Valley never had anything larger than a 35 foot bus. The 2272-2291 and 2378 series is of 35 foot buses, not 40 foot. Pace did not replace 35 foot buses in the 2000-2084 series that were previously in Fox, Heritage, and River with 40 foot buses.

I am also aware that Pace has several other facets that have very little to do with bus transportation in the traditional sense:

• ADA paratransit
  
• Municipal, community and dial a ride services
  
• Vanpool
  

So you see, what may be appropriate for South isn't for the rest of the region.

[trainman8119]

Let's also remember that orth, North Shore, and Heritage have had a mixture of 35 and 40 foot buses under Pace management, and River and Fox Valley never had anything larger than a 35 foot bus.

Not entirely true. When I was working out of Fox Valley, they did have 3 2100's (2122,2123 and 2124) which were used for the now defunct 737. When there were bus shortages, they would attempt to use those buses in town, however an edict came out at the time that if needed they were only to be used on the 530 and 802. When the 737 died, those buses made their way to West and North Shore divisions.

[Busjack]

I guess I should have said local service. I wasn't really aware of this use of the 2120s, although you did mention it before. I was thinking about the Aurora and Elgin city systems running even dinkier equipment before receiving the RTA 8000s, such as someone else's picture of an Aurora Flxette, and my remembering a bus in Elgin others identified as a Highway Products Twin Coach (see this picture of one elsewhere and the Elgin roster indicating them, but with the picture missing). Several are also indicated on the Aurora roster. I also remember that kind of bus in East Chicago and Lafayette, Indiana.

Your post does reinforce my point that a 40 foot bus is not appropriate everywhere. In fact, the rule in Fox seems the converse of that in South (in Fox, the rule was don't use the 40 foot bus on local routes, while in South the rule is don't use the 35 foot bus on 4 routes).

[indygo2200]

Here's just a quick question... How old does a bus have to be before they're replaced. Escambia County Area Transit (ECAT) are running 92 Orion I's. I thought it was 6 years but they informed me I didn't know what i was talking about.

[Busjack]

Here's just a quick question... How old does a bus have to be before they're replaced. Escambia County Area Transit (ECAT) are running 92 Orion I's. I thought it was 6 years but they informed me I didn't know what i was talking about.

All federally supported purchases have an assigned service life, and if a transit authority gets rid of a capital asset before its service life is over, it has to reimburse the feds. Usually, that means that if a transit agency wrecks a new bus, it keeps an old one in service until the wreck's service life is over.

In the case of buses, they must pass Altoona testing (at the Altoona Bus Research and Testing Center of the Pennsylvania Transportation Institute at Penn State) and that testing program has established the service lives of the buses tested. The only things with service lives of 4 or 5 years are vans and cutaways. Pretty much anything considered a bus has a 12 year service life. Thus, you can make your own conclusion about your last sentence. The taxpayers would also get a royally bad deal if a $350,000 bus lasted only 6 years.

As previously discussed, CTA recognizes the standard 12 year service life (see page 40 of this old budget pdf, for instance), but as a practical matter can't retire a bus until it is about 17-18 years old (and rarely if ever has). Since you mentioned 92 Orion Is, Pace is still running a few 90s and over 100 93s.

[indygo2200]

Thanks, I think I was thinking about School Buses