Create Your Own CTA Line

[Busjack]

On 12/23/2021 at 8:59 AM, strictures said:

....

The second would go father west & follow the the old Skokie Valley Line of the Northwestern south, until it joins the Belt Ry line & then continue south & join the Midway Line, stop at Midway & Ford City & go east along the various RR rights of way near 75th street & pass the Ryan line, with a transfer point & go all the way southeast to Hegewische.

That's essentially the Crosstown line, which was shot down twice: once when the Crosstown Expressway  was cancelled by Jane Byrne and the money transferred to the O'Hare extension and the Orange Line (CTA Connections video about the propaganda used to try to sell it), and again around 2009, when, despite Mayor Daley's mumbling endorsement of it, the Circle Line consultants killed it.

 

But speaking about fantasy, someone who lives near the Comm Ed right of way asked how he could get downtown, and I told him that if he time traveled back to 1958, he could take the NS Skokie Valley Route.

8 hours ago, BusHunter said:

One thing that is kind of cool is in places like Japan and the orient, they have where the express bus goes off road onto elevated structures. Doing that you could effectively extend a few lines or start new ones, fly over the problem areas and achieve faster L like service to compliment the L. 

...

Atlanta has something like that, but reversible Peach Pass only toll lanes. On I-75 south of the I-285 loop, it's like the Kennedy Expressway, but with toll readers, but on the north side of the city, it's like a roller coaster. Still, it seems like nothing can cure the traffic jams around there.

7 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

....

Also did a BRT design using Chicago's boulevards to create rapid transit service from Hyde Park to Logan Square, also along the same principle

Wouldn't need it, because Hyde Park buses (2, 6, 14) use JPD LSD,  which isn't that crowded  until near Soldier Field, and Logan Square has the Blue Line.

Until the early 1980s, there were various routes inherited from CMC that ran into Hyde Park via the boulevard system, including 1 Drexel-Hyde Park 2 Hyde Park (via King Dr.) and 5 Jeffery (via Michigan/Indiana, 43rd, and Drexel). Now, CTA considers the area adequately served by 2 and 15 to the Green and Red Lines.

But this does remind me that the CSL book had a plan by CRT to have feeder bus service east from the L into Hyde Park and from Logan Square. Apparently lack of a bus franchise, CRT being bankrupt, and universal transfers killed that.

[NewFlyerMCI]

4 hours ago, Busjack said:

Wouldn't need it, because Hyde Park buses (2, 6, 14) use JPD LSD,  which isn't that crowded  until near Soldier Field, and Logan Square has the Blue Line.

That works if you're in Logan Square specifically, or Hyde Park specifically. The goal was more so the locations in between, which have only bus service, which can be slow and not just "Hyde Park to Logan Park". However, I'm reworking it now based on some useful feedback I got the other day, but I've attached it in case you or others want to see; the forum's feedback will be helpful as well.

Also fairly certain the 14 doesn't count as a Hyde Park bus, and the 2 is peak only which kills its' usefulness

[Busjack]

55 minutes ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

That works if you're in Logan Square specifically, or Hyde Park specifically. The goal was more so the locations in between, which have only bus service, which can be slow and not just "Hyde Park to Logan Park". However, I'm reworking it now based on some useful feedback I got the other day, but I've attached it in case you or others want to see; the forum's feedback will be helpful as well.

Also fairly certain the 14 doesn't count as a Hyde Park bus, and the 2 is peak only which kills its' usefulness

 

That's again repetitive of various CMC routes inherited by CTA, and mostly killed in 1973 or earlier. The south side route duplicates 49/X49 and 55. There used to be a Jackson/Independence bus. Similarly, the Humboldt portion parallels California and Homan.

I don't think there would be any demand for the roundabout route to get from Hyde Park to Logan Square when there are quicker routes via rapid transit, and the alternatives I mentioned above take care of local trips.

You're right about 14.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, cplanner13 said:

Imagining a fictional/alternate history where a section of the L branches off the Blue Line at Montrose and continues onto the Edens where it meets with an extended version of the Yellow Line near Old Orchard Road.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1JR-EvFuFDOx50Lu-yUUa6KyX1f7o2Rs&usp=sharing

Besides not being put in the correct topic, nothing original here, as basically this was something that CTA said was the "locally preferred alternative" that the locals came out en masse to protest.

Heck, not even the Pace proposal for route 641 express from Jefferson Park to Touhy and then to Old Orchard got traction.

[Nitro]

On 4/15/2021 at 11:57 AM, NewFlyerMCI said:

I truly fail to see how the CTA is boring, especially compared to other subway systems in the US bar NYC. I can't think of another subway system in the US that has a Pink Line. Or a Brown Line for that matter (seeing as NYC's are called the J/Z). Cookie cutter service would be something like MARTA. Or Miami-Dade Subway. Not the CTA.

And now you're just fearmongering, taking the CTA is not some high-risk, life-averse activity than just walking around, especially if you're only counting the areas where the tourists are going (where it might actually be safer than the rest of the system). Something like seeing a sleeping homeless person is not the same as being robbed at gunpoint. Of course it's not going to be 100% safe to use at all times, but if people were holding out for that threshold, no one would ride. That sort of rhetoric only fuels a downward spiral that would cause the CTA to get worse.

MTA is worse since the crime rate became so high nowadays in NYC.

[Nitro]

My proposal is the Cyan Line:

The Cyan Line will run from Wallace-49th to The Loop via Northbound only. This line would parallel the Orange Line for a segment of its route & branch off of the Orange Line using the Grand Trunk Junction via the abandoned GTWR 49th Street ROW. 

The Stations are:

Adams/Wabash

Madison/Wabash

Randolph/Wabash

State/Lake

Clark/Lake

Washington/Wells

Quincy

LaSalle/Van Buren

State/Van Buren

Roosevelt

Halsted

Ashland

35th/Archer

Seeley

Winchester

Marshfield

Loomis

Aberdeen

Union

Wallace/49th

[Busjack]

4 minutes ago, Nitro said:

My proposal is the Cyan Line:

The Cyan Line will run from Wallace-49th to The Loop via Northbound only

This is a fantasy thread, but doesn't make any sense. What traffic generator exists at 49th and Wallace that isn't served adequately by the 44 bus?

If I were doing any Orange Line branch, it would be to 79th/Western. At least St. Rita and a bus terminal are there.

BTW, your last couple of posts show that you are not from Chicago or familiar with it. I don't recommend rerouting the LIRR or emulating the T orange line for anything.

[Nitro]

2 minutes ago, Busjack said:

This is a fantasy thread, but doesn't make any sense. What traffic generator exists at 49th and Wallace that isn't served adequately by the 44 bus?

If I were doing any Orange Line branch, it would be to 79th/Western. At least St. Rita and a bus terminal are there.

BTW, your last couple of posts show that you are not from Chicago or familiar with it. I don't recommend rerouting the LIRR or emulating the T orange line for anything.

Random thoughts do come to mind though.

[Nitro]

2 minutes ago, Nitro said:

Random thoughts do come to mind though.

Hey a branch isn't that bad when you think about it especially serving people who may have to rely on unreliable buses anyway it's just like Transit/Mixed Oriented Development. I personally don't hate buses since they serve as complementary to the L.

[Nitro]

8 minutes ago, Busjack said:

This is a fantasy thread, but doesn't make any sense. What traffic generator exists at 49th and Wallace that isn't served adequately by the 44 bus?

If I were doing any Orange Line branch, it would be to 79th/Western. At least St. Rita and a bus terminal are there.

BTW, your last couple of posts show that you are not from Chicago or familiar with it. I don't recommend rerouting the LIRR or emulating the T orange line for anything.

Another plan I had was a modified Yellow Line for most of its route it runs with the Red Line then splits off after Roosevelt to connect to the Green Line then branching off to serve Ashland/63rd or Cottage Grove. I don't know what you will say about this.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, Nitro said:

Another plan I had was a modified Yellow Line for most of its route it runs with the Red Line then splits off after Roosevelt to connect to the Green Line then branching off to serve Ashland/63rd or Cottage Grove. I don't know what you will say about this.

I know what I will say. This was studied to death about 25 years ago in connection with the also killed extension to Old Orchard. The basic problem was that a 3 train (6 car) line would need maybe another 50 cars to implement a duplication of service.

Also, IMO, people from Skokie and north of there aren't going to 63rd, and if the trains got delayed somewhere on the south side, there would be no way to maintain schedules in Skokie unless they diverted trains off the Purple and Red Lines.

[Nitro]

32 minutes ago, Busjack said:

I know what I will say. This was studied to death about 25 years ago in connection with the also killed extension to Old Orchard. The basic problem was that a 3 train (6 car) line would need maybe another 50 cars to implement a duplication of service.

Also, IMO, people from Skokie and north of there aren't going to 63rd, and if the trains got delayed somewhere on the south side, there would be no way to maintain schedules in Skokie unless they diverted trains off the Purple and Red Lines.

I mean it is possible to modify the Yellow Line and to keep consistency with the Red & Green Lines.

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, Nitro said:

I mean it is possible to modify the Yellow Line and to keep consistency with the Red & Green Lines.

No.

[Nitro]

40 minutes ago, Busjack said:

I know what I will say. This was studied to death about 25 years ago in connection with the also killed extension to Old Orchard. The basic problem was that a 3 train (6 car) line would need maybe another 50 cars to implement a duplication of service.

Also, IMO, people from Skokie and north of there aren't going to 63rd, and if the trains got delayed somewhere on the south side, there would be no way to maintain schedules in Skokie unless they diverted trains off the Purple and Red Lines.

25 years a lot has changed since then so it may be possible to still happen regardless. Again we don't know that since time will tell.

[Busjack]

Just now, Nitro said:

25 years a lot has changed since then so it may be possible to still happen regardless. Again we don't know that since time will tell.

Time will tell, but this has not changed in the past 25 years. Again, you have not articulated what has changed to justify this, so stop throwing cliches.

[Nitro]

Just now, Busjack said:

Time will tell, but this has not changed in the past 25 years. Again, you have not articulated what has changed to justify this, so stop throwing cliches.

I'm just being chill about it. Again it's a forum where everyone can discuss what they want to happen. I tend to see this in a more realistic sense if or when the time comes.

[Busjack]

11 minutes ago, Nitro said:

I'm just being chill about it. Again it's a forum where everyone can discuss what they want to happen. I tend to see this in a more realistic sense if or when the time comes.

So tell us when. 75 years in the future when the SSM is beyond repair?

I could have seen "we have to save the SSM because the Dan Ryan will need to be rebuilt at some time." I don't see this, nor you refuse to justify it. Now you are just playing games. Buy an OMSI.

 

[Sam92]

5 hours ago, Nitro said:

I'm just being chill about it. Again it's a forum where everyone can discuss what they want to happen. I tend to see this in a more realistic sense if or when the time comes.

Ok REALISTICALLY the purple line is a more likely candidate to send south but that's more to relieve the north side without adding too many trains on the red line which would run empty after Roosevelt. Yellow line would need to rebuilt for longer trains because 2 cars is gonna be an insult on the NSM in rush hour. As a person not from here I feel like you got that idea with the yellow line because it's so short on the map imo. The purple line is in more of a position to get all day service via a subway rerouting especially if brown line gets more service. We just untangled Clark junction which will allow more reds which would imbalance the Dan Ryan branch, or more browns which would crowd tower 18 so we assure the yellow is gonna be the same 25 years from now lol

[Busjack]

52 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

I feel like you got that idea with the yellow line because it's so short on the map imo. The purple line is in more of a position to get all day service via a subway rerouting especially if brown line gets more service.

That seems correct. Back 30 years ago, Krambles said that the Skokie Swift was actually a precursor to LRT, and while it did not have the ridership normally required for rapid transit, it connected the outlying area to the CTA system and it wouldn't matter whether a bus could handle the load, because it wouldn't generate it.

It's also possible that the reason dual platforms were built at Wilson, and may be built at Loyola, is for the kind of express service you mentioned. That's less express than no stops to Belmont or, before that, only a stop at Loyola. Something would have to pick up the overloads at Wellington and Diversey, but, as you suggest, more Brown Line service over the Clark Jct. bypass might accomplish that.

[Sam92]

3 hours ago, Busjack said:

 

It's also possible that the reason dual platforms were built at Wilson, and may be built at Loyola, is for the kind of express service you mentioned. That's less express than no stops to Belmont or, before that, only a stop at Loyola. Something would have to pick up the overloads at Wellington and Diversey, but, as you suggest, more Brown Line service over the Clark Jct. bypass might accomplish that.

As far as "less express" I remember in another forum someone made a decent point of "express may not always be a HUGE speed difference, but it helps to spread and control crowding". 134/143 aren't HUGELY faster than 151/156 if LSD is bad enough but the fact that they are taking riders from earlier in the route and putting them on a bus that won't stop in the more crowded sections, it allows 151/156 to have room without having to add as many buses to 151/156 OR simply add  empty short turned buses for those 2 where the express buses go nonstop. Same thing was studied for the purple/red suggestion on Chicago reader... Right now purple line isnt saving much time vs red due to the fact that south of Belmont, extra stops are made to supplement brown. Rerouting into the subway would make a trip from Howard to the loop 7 min faster than the red which isn't much BUT alternating purples and reds out of Howard both via the subway adds capacity from north of Roosevelt where it's needed instead of having all these reds run empty on the Dan Ryan 

[Nitro]

10 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Ok REALISTICALLY the purple line is a more likely candidate to send south but that's more to relieve the north side without adding too many trains on the red line which would run empty after Roosevelt. Yellow line would need to rebuilt for longer trains because 2 cars is gonna be an insult on the NSM in rush hour. As a person not from here I feel like you got that idea with the yellow line because it's so short on the map imo. The purple line is in more of a position to get all day service via a subway rerouting especially if brown line gets more service. We just untangled Clark junction which will allow more reds which would imbalance the Dan Ryan branch, or more browns which would crowd tower 18 so we assure the yellow is gonna be the same 25 years from now lol

I was thinking about deinterlining for quite some time now since a lot of people are pushing for it. I get what you are saying.

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Right now purple line isnt saving much time vs red due to the fact that south of Belmont, extra stops are made to supplement brown. Rerouting into the subway would make a trip from Howard to the loop 7 min faster than the red which isn't much BUT alternating purples and reds out of Howard both via the subway adds capacity from north of Roosevelt where it's needed instead of having all these reds run empty on the Dan Ryan 

The official explanation for the Purple Line stops at Diversey and Wellington was overcrowding there, but even before that, the Ravenswood trains were holding up the Evanston trains because there was no place to pass. Thus, putting the Purple Line on tracks 2 and 3 until Belmont might make sense.

I also got the impression that the Purple Line trains were fairly cleared out at Belmont, so it could also be more efficiently used.

 

[Sam92]

11 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The official explanation for the Purple Line stops at Diversey and Wellington was overcrowding there, but even before that, the Ravenswood trains were holding up the Evanston trains because there was no place to pass. Thus, putting the Purple Line on tracks 2 and 3 until Belmont might make sense.

I also got the impression that the Purple Line trains were fairly cleared out at Belmont, so it could also be more efficiently used.

 

Cleared out inbound or outbound? Howard picked up a pretty good load but of course SRO territory started at Belmont. Too bad the 4 track line south of armitage is gone. Express from armitage to the mart after picking up at those stops would help

[Tcmetro]

Purple Line stopping at the local stations also helps the Brown Line meet the demand between the Wells and Wabash sides of the loop. A lot of people that work on Wacker or near Union Station will take the Brown Line in the AM and the Purple Line in the PM. 

Also anecdotally, I've also seen a lot of the Purple Line ridership clear out at Belmont. From Evanston or Wilmette the Metra can be quite a bit faster.

[Busjack]

57 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

Cleared out inbound or outbound?

Outbound. Of course, one time I transferred to the Purple Line at Belmont, it had trouble getting clearance into Howard, so it ended up being slower.

57 minutes ago, Sam92 said:

Too bad the 4 track line south of armitage is gone. Express from armitage to the mart after picking up at those stops would help

Basically, all that would avoid is Sedgwick, as it is only 2 track by Chicago, There were proposals to put a station near Division, but nothing happened.