Proterra files bankruptcy

[Busjack]

4 hours ago, artthouwill said:

I suppose one can brag about zero emissions and quieter engines and not burning diesel fuel when the buses don't run at all.  There is a good reason for bus manufacturers to keep building diesel buses.

Probably not diesel. Maybe CNG. I've got someone looking into why natural gas became verboten around 2022.

Note the comment in the article about diesel buses still putting out particulate matter. Maybe CTA can go back to the 1990s experiment of running them on corn oil.

[Busjack]

On 12/8/2023 at 1:26 PM, Busjack said:

Austin, TX article on some of the problems.

I was focusing more on the legal problems. There are a bunch of them, including:

• The one noted in the Austin article that the buses are unreliable and who will assume the warranty obligations (Broward County objection)
• Phoenix does not appear to have the experience to manufacture the buses now under contract (i.e. Washoe County objection)
• In addition, Proterra has missed timelines or won't be able to deliver on time, and Phoenix, by extension, won't be able to (BC Transit objection).

[Busjack]

On 12/15/2023 at 2:31 PM, Busjack said:

I was focusing more on the legal problems. There are a bunch of them, including:

• The one noted in the Austin article that the buses are unreliable and who will assume the warranty obligations (Broward County objection)
• Phoenix does not appear to have the experience to manufacture the buses now under contract (i.e. Washoe County objection)
• In addition, Proterra has missed timelines or won't be able to deliver on time, and Phoenix, by extension, won't be able to (BC Transit objection).

Developments on this are that that fhe hearing on the sale is put off until Jan. 5, Phoenix is to put up a guaranty of $20 million by a credit-worthy entity for warranty obligations, and Proterra is seeking permission to sell 6 buses intended to Miami-Dade to someone else.

I talked to someone who practiced corporate bankruptcy law, and while she asked for a copy of the pleadings (and I said there's not enough paper for that), based on what I said about warranty obligations and the federal government objecting on the basis that contracts with the General Services Administration and Department of  Defense to purchase buses may not be assigned without the federal government's consent indicate that Proterra Transit will be liquidated. I might turnout to be wrong, but it isn't looking good.

Pace and CTA haven't filed formal objections, but I remember Metzger's statement that she didn't want the buses without warranties. I also wonder if CTA gave a Notice to Proceed on the 22 option buses.

[strictures]

On 12/8/2023 at 8:12 PM, Busjack said:

Probably not diesel. Maybe CNG. I've got someone looking into why natural gas became verboten around 2022.

Note the comment in the article about diesel buses still putting out particulate matter. Maybe CTA can go back to the 1990s experiment of running them on corn oil.

Why not go back to propane?

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, strictures said:

Why not go back to propane?

That seems the same question as why not CNG, except while the Propane Council  advertises it, the 3 remaining bus assemblers don't offer it.

[strictures]

4 hours ago, Busjack said:

That seems the same question as why not CNG, except while the Propane Council  advertises it, the 3 remaining bus assemblers don't offer it.

My dad had a Chevrolet taxi for a few years with propane, apparently it was a simple switch for GM to do to the engine.  The engine looked the same, but the two propane tanks under the trunk were different.

[artthouwill]

9 hours ago, Busjack said:

That seems the same question as why not CNG, except while the Propane Council  advertises it, the 3 remaining bus assemblers don't offer it.

All I can say is that Propane seems to have issues in extreme weather.   It is very difficult to fuel in extreme cold weather and in extreme heat   You could probably better say how those affected the Flxble Propanes CTA had back in the day .   This just could be the nature of that beast. It doesn't seem like CNG buses are suffering these issues. 

[strictures]

11 hours ago, artthouwill said:

All I can say is that Propane seems to have issues in extreme weather.   It is very difficult to fuel in extreme cold weather and in extreme heat   You could probably better say how those affected the Flxble Propanes CTA had back in the day .   This just could be the nature of that beast. It doesn't seem like CNG buses are suffering these issues. 

My dad's Chevy propane taxi had a few problems starting it in really cold weather, but the mechanics fixed it quickly with a few changes that I know nothing about.  No more starting problems after that in the winter.

[Busjack]

To get back to this topic, which is not somebody's propane pickup truck,* Metzger said at the December Pace board meeting about here that they were engaged in conversations with the new company and the 22 buses are supposed to go on the line in March and be delivered in June or July, but that's preliminary.

_______________________

*There is a Hank Hill topic on that.

 

[Busjack]

The Bankruptcy Court approved the sale of Proterra Transit to Phoenix (order). All objections not withdrawn were overruled. CTA and Pace contracts were assumed by Phoenix.

[Railguy]

Im sure it will work out, the design plans are labor are there, bankrupcy is basically administration

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, Railguy said:

Im sure it will work out, the design plans are labor are there, bankrupcy is basically administration

 

The issue, noted above, is whether Phoenix has the capability to perform the outstanding contracts. Apparently, the bankruptcy judge thought so, but this was not a packaged reorganization, like Audacy, where the creditors intend to take over the company intact. However, the good thing is that, unlike what the expert predicted, the transit operation was not liquidated, and Metzger is hopefully correct that Pace's buses will go into production in March.

[Busjack]

On 1/6/2024 at 10:31 AM, artthouwill said:

...  They can opt to buy some electric artics and electrics from New Flyer and/or Gillig, though I understand that vehicles purchased with federal funds has to go to the lowest bidder.  ...

One possible fly in the ointment is that Rev Group said in connection with closing down ENC that one problem was that it was getting batteries from Proterra, and Gillig also does. However, since Volvo purchased the Proterra battery business, maybe this can be overcome.

[Busjack]

Reference on gillig.com to this story that Ithaca, NY has pulled its 7 Proterra buses, because of structural issues, is buying 5 Gillig diesel buses, and intends to buy Gillig electrics. Problem doesn't seem to be electric, per se, but Proterra's composite body: "The electric buses were pulled on Wednesday, March 13 following mechanics’ discovery of the frame of one of the buses separating from the axle while it was on a lift. This rendered the bus “unfit for service... "

[NewFlyerMCI]

4 hours ago, Busjack said:

Reference on gillig.com to this story that Ithaca, NY has pulled its 7 Proterra buses, because of structural issues, is buying 5 Gillig diesel buses, and intends to buy Gillig electrics. Problem doesn't seem to be electric, per se, but Proterra's composite body: "The electric buses were pulled on Wednesday, March 13 following mechanics’ discovery of the frame of one of the buses separating from the axle while it was on a lift. This rendered the bus “unfit for service... "

Wouldn't be the first time, SEPTA also had strucutral issues with their Proterras (I want to say cracks in the frame). More concerning that this is with the newer ZX5 model (SEPTA's issues were with the BE40 model)

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

Wouldn't be the first time, SEPTA also had strucutral issues with their Proterras (I want to say cracks in the frame). More concerning that this is with the newer ZX5 model (SEPTA's issues were with the BE40 model)

In all cases, Proterra used balsa wood laminated with composite, all impregnated with resin (description from Philadelphia TV). They claimed it was strong, but I don't know.

[Elkmn]

 With all the rust issues on 1630-2029, if the Proterras at C had structural issues too, would C have enough buses for regular operation? Maybe that's why they're getting all the 8350s.

 

[artthouwill]

5 hours ago, Elkmn said:

 With all the rust issues on 1630-2029, if the Proterras at C had structural issues too, would C have enough buses for regular operation? Maybe that's why they're getting all the 8350s.

 

CTA hasn't said anything about structural issues publicly with either the 1630 - 2029 New Flyers or the Proterras.  The difference is that the format are of retirement age and the latter aren't. History suggests that CTA  would have no problem with pulling the Proterras from service altogether if structural defects were found    

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, Elkmn said:

 With all the rust issues on 1630-2029, if the Proterras at C had structural issues too, would C have enough buses for regular operation? Maybe that's why they're getting all the 8350s.

 

 

5 hours ago, artthouwill said:

CTA hasn't said anything about structural issues publicly with either the 1630 - 2029 New Flyers or the Proterras.  The difference is that the format are of retirement age and the latter aren't. History suggests that CTA  would have no problem with pulling the Proterras from service altogether if structural defects were found    

Also, it appears that C is getting all the recent Novas, whether it needs them or not. 3 or 4 Proterras running out of 19 assigned there aren't going to make much difference.

[Elkmn]

Well, given all this information, is it likely for the cta to buy electric xcelsiors in the next few years? 

[artthouwill]

2 hours ago, Elkmn said:

Well, given all this information, is it likely for the cta to buy electric xcelsiors in the next few years? 

If federal funds are paying for the buses, the lowest bidder will get the contract.  New Flyer, Proterra,  and Gillig are in play for future orders. 

[Elkmn]

There's no way CTA gets gilligs, right? Aren't they meant for bus systems in smaller areas? I'm curious to see how the new owner handles pace's proterras.

[NewFlyerMCI]

On 4/27/2024 at 4:32 PM, Elkmn said:

There's no way CTA gets gilligs, right? Aren't they meant for bus systems in smaller areas? I'm curious to see how the new owner handles pace's proterras.

That's not how lowest bidder works, that's more reflective of how Gillig tends to bid (and the other manufacturers as well). No standard 40ft bus (before customization) is meant for any particular area

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, busfan2847 said:

OK before bankruptcy it was difficult to get parts, since November it has become impossible.

https://www.25newsnow.com/2024/03/27/public-transit-buses-remain-parked-after-supplier-goes-bankrupt/

It might have been bad before bankruptcy, worse now. But unless -Phoenix Motorcars does something about it, the $20 million warranty fund will be exhausted fairly rapidly.

I note that A) New Flyer is still getting orders and B) Metzger hasn't said anything at the past two board meetings about the buses she said would be on the assembly line in March.

 

[Busjack]

Wirepoints, "an independent, nonprofit company delivering original research and commentary about Illinois’ economy and government" based in Wilmette, has an article our economy, government and business -- Huge Problems With Proterra Electric Transit Buses In Many Cities, Though CTA And PACE Say No Concerns. It does list numerous TAs that have had problems, including Philadelphia and Bloomington-Normal, cited by others of you above. It noted that "problems preceded both the bankruptcy and the cold."

Of course, Pace doesn't have any concerns because, as far as we know, it hasn't received any yet. (Maybe we'll find out differently on Wednesday. It also seems like Wirepoints thought the Gillig was a Proterra.)  CTA spokesperson (back to garbage slinging), mere commented that they ran in the cold, not on that about 16 of the 23 haven't run in a while.