Who thinks nabis are Junk

[pace2322]

From what i know about them from riding bad and have no a/c or heat.The Nabis are just junk.Who on here think there are junk to?

[geneking7320]

I'm up in Rogers Park, served by Pace #215 [which uses NABIs] and #290 [which does not]. I have ridden a NABI 40 footer and thought it was OK. I think the CTA's artics are too noisy over bumps (especially on the LSD portion of #147 southbound). I guess I'd like more choices on the poll. I don't think they're junk per se but I don't know if they're the best bus made either.

[Busjack]

I don't know if they are any worse than any other bus. Not being a driver, I don't know about their repair history or "mean faults per million miles." While they seem to be prone to brake fires, Pace burned an Orion VI, too. People in NW don't think Orion VIs ride well, and Toronto took their CNG ones out of service after only 8 years (source: http://come.to/torontobus). CTA drivers keep finding ways to demolish Novas, which have too few seats, and accelerate too rapidly for standees' comfort. The Flyer D901s were rust buckets, and were also taken out of service prematurely in Toronto. At least CTA documented its complaints with the NABI articulateds.

You obviously seem obsessed; maybe you should correspond with someone in Los Angeles, where they have 1200-1400 of them.

Maybe the problem is generally that there are no more bus manufacturers, but bus assemblers, and Pace always takes pride in taking the low bid (the reason that the 6000s were not NABIs is that the Orion VIs were $10,000 per bus cheaper than the NABIs, according to the press release at the time, but apparently Pace was not willing to pony up for Orion VIIs when the VIs went out of production). Also, it might not be a coincidence that CTA and Pace were the last or almost last purchasers of bus models from several manufacturers (upon which they went bankrupt, left the market, or discontinued the model--twice in Orion's case).

[trainman8119]

I am not, nor have I ever been too crazy about the Pace NABI's. When I was still with them when the 2400s came in, the drivers hated them. When the CTA artics came in I had a discussion with an old admistrator from Seattle who was amazed that the CTA put money into buying NABI's and felt that in a short time they would be sorry they did (shortly thereafter the frame problems surfaced) and questioned how they would hold up in the winter time.

It does seem though, that looking at the CTA NABI's, they are already looking a little bit haggared. Could be more of a maintenace issue than the actual manufacturing, but I can't see these lasting more than 10 years like the MAN artics did. Looks like they are also getting a lot of garage lot bumps...lots of rear side scrapes and dents top to bottom.

[geneking7320]

Busjack might be on to something in post #3.

Indeed, are there any 40 ft. or 60 ft. transit buses sold in the US which were designed here (other than the RTS)? That brings up another question. Has the Chicago market become a "killer" or transit bus manufacturers? Did CTA's purchase of RTS buses adversely affect the maker? Also, has any US operator purchased the Nova LFS after CTA?

I wish I had the answers...

[Busjack]

The only fully domestic company with any volume of sales is Gillig. New Flyer is a Canadian company, and while Orion technically also is a Canadian one, it is owned by DaimlerChrysler, and like Chrysler, now claims to be applying German engineering to its product. We mentioned Millennium before, but no one knows if it received any substantial order after the New Jersey one.

We also previously discussed that Nova closed its Schenectady plant, which was necessary to meet Buy America requirements, and has withdrawn from the U.S. transit market (although it can still sell to private purchasers).

I don't know if CTA and Pace are killers, but I suppose that the CTA order didn't help the profitability of Nova's U.S. operations, which closed immediately thereafter. Probably financial instability in the industry as a whole has resulted in all of the companies except Gillig going through various reorganizations and bankruptcies since GM sold its bus operations in about 1989. At one time or another, the Canadian companies were propped up by their provinces. If Toyotas and Hondas were only sold by the lowest bidder, and those companies had 3 or 4 owners in the past 15 or so years and only screwed together parts supplied by others, we probably wouldn't have much faith in those products. It is not like when a GM bus was a GM bus.

[geneking7320]

Thanks for mentioning Gillig I had forgotten about them. I did see their buses in KC back in summer 2005 as well as doing airport shuttle duty in various cities. I think the taxpayer's dollar needs to be protected. That said, I wonder if the low bid system in place allows public transit operators to buy the best vehicle available.

[RIPTA42]

ElDorado National may not exceed Busjack's threshold of sales volume, but it is also wholly U.S.-owned. I would also argue that Optima is still a domestic company despite having been acquired by NABI; NABI itself is owned by U.S.-based Cerberus Capital Management, and Optima has no connection with NABI's Hungarian manufacturing operations.

[Busjack]

Gene King had referred to 40 or 60 foot buses. Optima isn't competing with NABI in that segment, and I don't know how much the ElDorado Axess has sold. Optima uses a body from Wrightbus, a Northern Ireland company, so it definitely is not a US design.

[MISTERLINSKY]

Gene King had referred to 40 or 60 foot buses. Optima isn't competing with NABI in that segment, and I don't know how much the ElDorado Axess has sold. Optima uses a body from Wrightbus, a Northern Ireland company, so it definitely is not a US design.

I really can't answer the lead question because I don't think that the Nabi's are junk, but I don't think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread either!

Here in Los Angeles (that's right, I said Los Angeles) the LACMTA is now committed to only buying the Nabi 60BRT and has well over 100 on the roster with many more on order.

I will say that they are sleak looking and, with their more sculptered bodies, bring to mind buses of yesteryear!

While I have never driven or ridden in one, I can make some astute observations merely as I pass them in traffic.

The threads that hold the accordion curtain together that seperates the front and rear sections is fraying.

The fender skirts (a novelty today) are missing on some wheels and I can only assume that either a mechanic in the shop failed to reinstall them or they were ripped off in traffic (I due notice a good many scars on those that are still intact).

This leads me to what seems to be the worst problem with these buses and that is their width; in following one, you get the feeling that they are wider than the 102" limit because they seem to take up the full width of a standard lane.

This must present a problem because I am now noticing that the MTA has begun to install black and yellow strips of tape both at the rear left end of the trailer and around the entire protruding driver's mirror.

In this regard, I did see only the other day a 60BRT heading down Wilshire Boulevard with the driver's mirror ripped away and hanging by its wires!

There is one more notable flaw in the design and that would be the front destination sign glass which follows the rather sharply rounded contour of the roof of the bus and, in certain bright sun conditions, renders the sign invisible!

I know that these are mostly superficial problems, but it does lead me to wonder how well this equipment will stand up through their service lives!

Mr. Linsky

[Busjack]

Someone posted on Wikipedia, and now I have a better link that NABI is closing Optima's Kansas plant and moving the operation to Alabama. Probably not unexpected, but since one of CTA's complaints was about the quality of NABI's Alabama workforce (who could make more money working for Nissan), it looks like the writers in this thread would wonder about the quality of Optimas if the options are exercised (not that it appears that there is any need for CTA to exercise them).

[rmadisonwi]

I can't guarantee it, since it's not my call, but based on discussions in the office, I'd say it's *highly* unlikely for the options to be exercised. The last thing CTA needs is more small buses with no place to run them (especially considering that, if we are forced to cut service, there would be virtually no place to run them as most of the routes that have ridership justifying an Optima would be eliminated).