What's assigned to what garage

[Busjack]

It doesn't help with NP running the most routes in the system and 74th running the least. In my opinion, #151 Sherdian should operate of out Kedzie at ALL times, give #22 Clark and #36 Broadway to Kedzie, give #49B Western to FG, and open a new garage somewhere roughly south of Bucktown or on the near north side. Kedzie should give #10 Museum of Science and Industry to 77th at ALL times. Chicago should get #127 Madison/Roosevelt. #17 Westchester should just get cut.

We should open a new topic and talk about this stuff there, instead in a 1000 page.

OK, I took your suggestion.

However, what do you leave in NP? And what is the deadhead time added? And what are the relative capacities of the garages? The Garages page states their storage capacities, but not how many are assigned. For instance, FG is listed has having a capacity of 310, but now has about 270 buses (about 128 each of 6000s and 6700s, and supposedly 14 Optimas). North Park is listed as having a capacity of 440, and now has approximately 325 (100 7500s, 165 or so 4400s and maybe 60 living 5800s; maybe, as I mentioned before, the 7500s count double). Kedzie and Chicago each has a capacity of 250, and thus are no bigger than 74th. I previously mentioned that where Limits was made sense from the standpoint of avoiding deadheading, but the proposal to move it to Elston didn't make sense and was killed.

The question is what the land acquisition costs would be for the mid-North garage, and to replace Archer (which, I contend should be nearer to Midway Airport), and whether there are sufficient industrial areas near there to allow that use. I still don't understand who is going to buy townhouses at the end of Armstrong Avenue at Forest Glen.

Now, if I were doing it, I would have built 74th somewhere in the stockyards district, and, as mentioned before, New Archer out by Midway Airport. Even though 74th is not far from the 69th and Ashland barn it replaced, it is at the south end of its territory (55th to 75th), and does not have a direct connection to Western Ave. (which 69th did have). Stockyards would get NS routes from about Halsted to California, EW routes from 35 to 51, and Archer's downtown business. Archer/Midway would get S. Kedzie and west of there, and 55 to 67. 75 could go to 77th. But as frequently noted, no one in authority has asked me.

The only CTA bus facility that seems to have unlimited space is 77th, but they have been mentioning the need to modernize it in the capital budget for several years now.

The only virtue 74th supposedly has is that it does not have rush hour peaks (according to the CTA). However, there is long ride back from the north ends of Halsted and Ashland.

I agree (and wrote Julie Hamos) that 17 should be a Pace route, and someone should look at Harlem Ave., Evanston, and Skokie.

Another aside: John Kass in the Tribune made an allusion to the Limits land deal:

Vrdolyak knows where political bodies are buried, as does Singer, who still must marvel at how Mayor Richard Daley's developer buddy Mike Marchese underbid him for that prime CTA property on North Clark Street and miraculously got the land anyway.

Of course, there was the issue about who was willing to pay the cleanup costs.

[Buslover88]

I would have built 74th somewhere in the stockyards district

I don't think it should be moved up over there, but somewhere between 59th and 67th at Ashland. I do agree with most of your ideas, however, but if #55 was at the Stockyards, I think it should be at Archer. I disagree with Archer moving and Harlem being switched to pace. Let's just get this clear: CTA buses need to serve in city boundries only, and PACE in subarban boundries only. I think 103rd should operate routes east of Stony Island and south of 87th only. The 103rd expresses (the 120s only) can go to a different garage. #14 should be operated out of 103rd at ALL times and #2 out of 77th at ALL times. 77th should operate routes east of State and south of 75th only, with the exception of #1 and #3. #4 should go to 103rd, and #6 should go to Kedzie, as Kedzie looks closer to Michigan/Wacker then 77th is to 79th/South Shore. FG should get routes west of Laramie, north of Belmont and south of Foster only, and also the #X54. I don't understand why the #20 and #X20 operate out of Chicago, as they are much closer to Kedzie. #94 should go to Kedzie, even though Archer is closer. NP should get only get there North-South Expresses, and all East-West routes north of Foster. The Evanston & Skokie routes need to go to PACE. Anything north of Howard and west of Harlem belongs to PACE. #68 should get cut to Devon, and PACE operate the #68 portion north of Devon. #64 and #69 are a waste of buses and should definately get cut. Even my proposed route for #31 would be better than those two routes. Maybe the CTA should do like Roseburg does: make Express, regular, and night routes go to separate garages.

[Busjack]

I do agree with most of your ideas, however, but if #55 was at the Stockyards, I think it should be at Archer.

You didn't disagree with me on this one; I said Stockyards should be to 51. 55 would go to Midway, because its terminal is at the Midway Orange Line.

I disagree with Archer moving and Harlem being switched to pace. Let's just get this clear: CTA buses need to serve in city boundaries only, and PACE in suburban boundaries only.

I was talking about 90 being extended south of Grand to the Green Line, overrunning 307. That's Pace territory, and a subject of the Auditor General's report. I also agree with you that Skokie and Evanston should go to Pace (and have twice written my state representatives about that). 68 past Devon is still in the city until Canfield, and the part in Park Ridge is de minimis. (I also think, that for similar reasons, the 353 trips that end in Riverdale should be run by CTA, if the main point is to serve King Dr. south of 95th, and the only contact with Riverdale is at the turnaround.) I have no problem with connectivity between the city and suburbs, but believe that the bus route should be operated by the agency that represents the residential areas where passengers are collected.

I am still not clear whether your analyses take into account garage capacity and the like. Obviously, one can't schedule the drivers at one garage to work only during the rush hour.

Finally, if they ever intend to replace Archer Garage (and that seems to be put on the back burner), there isn't enough land to do it in place, and the neighborhood is not of a type that would like a new bus garage (even if it tolerates the old one). Compare its location to those such as 74, 103, and Chicago, which are clearly in industrial districts (go to the Garages page, click on a pointer, click on hybrid, and enlarge the map). The land where the Limits, North Ave. and 69th barns were located was sold (as indicated in the quote from Kass in the first post).

[Buslover88]

I think drives should be assigned 8 hours weekdays, and 6 hours on Weekends & Holidays. I think CTA is doing a very poor job in assignning buses to a route, I rode #6108 on #56 and there were less then 15 passengers (that could use an Optima). When I rode #62 back in October, and when we went passed the Archer garage, it seemed like people weren't mad about the presence of the garage. I think the #3 and #4 should be extended to at least 115th. You're actually right about #68, it should continue to go to Park Ridge. I wouldn't support the CTA operate the short-turned #353s, and as a matter of fact, #353 should only operate south of 138th. I still think #64 and #69 are a waste of routes, especally #69 (#64 is a little longer then #69), but I don't know other people's opinions on that (I have yet to ride #64 and #69). If anything, #69 should be the 69th street route. Perhaps CTA and PACE need to start all over again?

[Busjack]

I wouldn't support the CTA operate the short-turned #353s, and as a matter of fact, #353 should only operate south of 138th... Perhaps CTA and PACE need to start all over again?

Probably yes to the latter, but how are people from south of 138th supposed to get to the 95-Red Line or any other connection, when CTA cut off any service south of 130th? Did you know that the 34 used to go to 138th and Leyden, but was rerouted to Altgeld Gardens? (Conversely, the Altgeld bus was run by South Surburban Safeway).

It seems like you are being arbitrary, without considering the underlying resource and connectivity issues. It is desirable to have Pace buses feed CTA stations, so long as there is no gross duplication of service.

[trainman8119]

I think CTA is doing a very poor job in assignning buses to a route, I rode #6108 on #56 and there were less then 15 passengers (that could use an Optima).

Scary thought. 56 should never have an Optima on it...except maybe on an overnight

owl run. There may have been 15 people on that bus when you rode it, but where

were you and how long were you on the bus. It is conceviable that at some point there

were 40, especially if it was during the day or early evening. Also, that might have

been the 3rd trip on that run, where the other 2 had heavier loads. Optimas should

be limited to only routes like Evanston and U of C (short haul...specialized service),

and should never be used on a high volume long distance route.

As for operators being limited to 6 and 8 hours...in some cases they are, some less.

They are known as part timers. If you were to totally eliminate longer overtime runs,

the unions would (or at least should) have a fit. Not to mention, you probably would

find yourself with a driver shortage because, with a few exceptions, bus drivers drive

in order to make money...the less overtime, the less money, the less drivers. It is simple.

That is why Pace is always looking for drivers...they don't pay em. That is why there

is such a school bus driver shortage. It is not because people hate kids (although

that does take into account)...it is mainly because there is no money in it and the

benefits stink !!!! I don't totally disagree with you, though. The CTA, Pace, and Metra

all have a say in job assignments. If they wanted to cut back on overtime, it could

be done. The down side is that to do so would require additional resources (manpower)

which is at a premium. If you were to take 11 hour runs and reduce them to 6 and 8,

you would need more manpower to cover the difference and with that comes more

benefits and additional problems. Sometimes the solution (creates) is worse than

the problem (see previous stories regarding 74th an North Park and their run picking

system...which was eliminated and returned to the old system).

[Buslover88]

So you're basically saying no Optimas should be used on the #64, #68, #69, #81W, #85A, #88 or #90N? I don't even think they're even good for FG anymore. I was on it from Jefferson Park to Diversey. I think they should be a law requiring CTA, Metra, and PACE to pay workers. The Optimas should put at Archer routes west of Midway and north of Foster. If the Optimas aren't good for the CTA, take them back to the factory and have the factory put them in another city where they are useful. I would like to use them.

[RJL6000]

Scary thought. 56 should never have an Optima on it...except maybe on an overnight

owl run.

At this point that situation is hypothetical. Since the 1997-98 service reductions, #56 has not been running overnights.

Otherwise, I do think that the Optimas should have been used on those part-time routes that have historically had relatively low ridership - routes like #64 and #69 (as far as the FG routes are concerned).

[rmadisonwi]

So you're basically saying no Optimas should be used on the #64, #68, #69, #81W, #85A, #88 or #90N?

What the heck are you talking about? Nobody said anything about those routes.

I don't even think they're even good for FG anymore.

What do you mean by "they?" The Optimas? The routes you noted? Something else?

I was on it from Jefferson Park to Diversey.

As noted earlier, just because you rode one trip and counted a maximum of 15 people (you didn't say what time of the day you rode, how far in front of your bus the leader was, or any number of other factors that could affect the load on a single trip on a given day), doesn't mean that the route could use an Optima. If the trip before and the trip after carried heavier loads, then the Optima would be insufficient. It's far more expensive to pull a bus in and out just to tailor it to the loads of individual trips, rather than to keep a larger bus out there all day. In fact, the operating cost of a 40-foot bus isn't that much higher than the cost of a 30-foot bus. The bulk of the cost is the labor of the driver, and he gets paid the same whether he's driving a 30-foot bus in Evanston or an articulated bus downtown.

I think they should be a law requiring CTA, Metra, and PACE to pay workers.

What on earth are you talking about? Those agencies *do* pay their workers. Everybody is supposed to pay their workers. There are federal laws to this effect, and they apply to every place of employment, not just transit agencies. Please pay attention.

The Optimas should put at Archer routes west of Midway and north of Foster. If the Optimas aren't good for the CTA, take them back to the factory and have the factory put them in another city where they are useful. I would like to use them.

They are being used. They are used on certain University of Chicago runs, and should be used on Evanston routes, and routes north and west of Jefferson Park at Forest Glen. Occasionally one finds its way onto another route, but that shouldn't happen. There may be reasons why it does, but CTA should work to minimize those reasons. That is being done, but sometimes you are faced with a situation where that is the only working bus left in the garage, and it's a choice of either putting the Optima out there, or having the run not go out at all. The choice gets pretty easy at that point.

Even though there is not a big cost savings for operating a 30-foot bus vs. a 40-foot bus, there are a couple of key reasons why small buses make sense, even in a system like CTA. For one, certain routes (particularly around the University of Chicago) operate on narrow streets with tight turns. An Optima is much easier to handle on those streets, which minimizes the chance of hitting something. Secondly, they take up less space in the garage for what amounts to the same level of service on lighter routes.

This relates to some of the other discussions in this and a related topic. Several of CTA's garages are at or above their optimal capacity right now. North Park is full. Kedzie is full. Forest Glen is either at or close to capacity right now. There aren't too many more places to store buses at these garages as it is. This is why routes can't be moved to Kedzie Garage (at least, not without other routes being moved out). This is why 103rd operates downtown shuttles during the rush hour. The garages that are closer to downtown simply can't accommodate the buses required to operate those routes. It's not an ideal situation, and we could "woulda, coulda, shoulda" to death the fact that certain garages were closed. The fact remains, they're gone, and we have what we have. The folks that made those decisions have gone off to other things, and the people that are there now have to deal with the hand they've been dealt.

To get back to the 30-foot buses, you can fit four Optimas in the space of three 40-footers or two articulated buses. Therefore, by putting those buses on light runs, you're in effect freeing up space (and 40-foot buses) to be allocated elsewhere. Until another garage is built (and the money isn't coming soon, and there are other, more important things to take care of first), you're not going to see much more than a small shifting of routes here and there (such as, perhaps the 125 going to Kedzie and the 134 moving to North Park). Any large-scale changes to the garage assignments for routes isn't going to happen until we see an increase in garage capacity, and as I just noted, that won't happen soon.

[Busjack]

I think the #3 and #4 should be extended to at least 115th.

Again, you are probably not old enough to know that 4 went to 115th from about 1918 to 1969. When the 95-Dan Ryan station opened, routes south of 95th were rerouted to feed the station. At that time, there was the 104-Pullman, and some time later, it was combined with the 111 111th-115th, to form the current 111 Pullman-115.

At about the same time, 111A (now 112) was routed into 95th, 95 was split into 95E and and 95W, etc. The aim was to give people south of 95th some connection to the rapid transit. Now if the plan to extend the Red Line south is ever implemented, those connections can be reassessed (as well as Pace 352, 353, maybe 355, and 359).

Some time later, 3 and 4 were fed into Chicago State, and South Suburban Safeway routes such as ROSELAND-ALTGELD and THORNTON via 142nd were cut back from the Prudential Building, resulting in the current 353 (which, as noted above, swapped Altgeld Gardens and 138th Street with CTA at some later point).

As for King Dr. south of 95th, since pace2322 works for Pace South, maybe you can answer the following questions:

• Where do passengers board (inbound) or leave (outbound) on 353 Riverdale trips? On King Drive in Chicago, or at the 136th St. terminal?
  
• Do the 353 Riverdale trips have a large enough passenger load that they actually make money for Pace?
  

[geneking7320]

Last night while dining at Marcello's on North Ave [west of Larabee] I noticed a number of New Flyers on route #72. Also for you work bus fans, a Flyer workbus pulled into the lot and backed toward the Brown/Purple line tracks. I think the work bus left within 30 minutes and headed west on North Ave.

Gene King

[RJL6000]

Last night while dining at Marcello's on North Ave [west of Larabee] I noticed a number of New Flyers on route #72.

This is because #72 is currently a Chicago Garage route, and the Chicago Garage is currently receiving delivery of the New Flyers.

[Buslover88]

I was born in 1993, so I wouldn't know. I wasn't thinking about the people south of 138th, i'm sorry. I heard about those old routes, but never seen them or rode them.

[Busjack]

With regard to the side show here on whether bus drivers get paid, you can look at the Auditor General's Report. Apparently, CTA is near the top of its peer group, while Pace is average for its. However, benefits costs, especially unfunded pensions, are running the CTA into the ground. According to the report, 7 of 9 Pace garages have defined contribution (i.e. 401(k) or similar) plans.

[Busjack]

I have to apologize to a member here. While he may be off that Pace shouldn't run north of 138th Street, CTA posted a Press Release saying that its Far South Side study extends down to 159th St. Why would they be poaching in Pace territory, especially since Pace is already running a study there, the Auditor General said to cut down duplication of service, and House Bill 1841 calls for planning on a regional basis? I previously said I had contempt for CTA management, but apparently they have less sense than some teenagers. And the member was correct (and in accord with the Auditor General) in saying Pace should get Evanston and Skokie (or at least that CTA shouldn't be competing for local passengers there).

[cta5658]

I don't think it should be moved up over there, but somewhere between 59th and 67th at Ashland. I do agree with most of your ideas, however, but if #55 was at the Stockyards, I think it should be at Archer. I disagree with Archer moving and Harlem being switched to pace. Let's just get this clear: CTA buses need to serve in city boundries only, and PACE in subarban boundries only. I think 103rd should operate routes east of Stony Island and south of 87th only. The 103rd expresses (the 120s only) can go to a different garage. #14 should be operated out of 103rd at ALL times and #2 out of 77th at ALL times. 77th should operate routes east of State and south of 75th only, with the exception of #1 and #3. #4 should go to 103rd, and #6 should go to Kedzie, as Kedzie looks closer to Michigan/Wacker then 77th is to 79th/South Shore. FG should get routes west of Laramie, north of Belmont and south of Foster only, and also the #X54. I don't understand why the #20 and #X20 operate out of Chicago, as they are much closer to Kedzie. #94 should go to Kedzie, even though Archer is closer. NP should get only get there North-South Expresses, and all East-West routes north of Foster. The Evanston & Skokie routes need to go to PACE. Anything north of Howard and west of Harlem belongs to PACE. #68 should get cut to Devon, and PACE operate the #68 portion north of Devon. #64 and #69 are a waste of buses and should definately get cut. Even my proposed route for #31 would be better than those two routes. Maybe the CTA should do like Roseburg does: make Express, regular, and night routes go to separate garages.

I Think That The #29 State Should Be operated of of 103rd

[Busjack]

I Think That The #29 State Should Be operated of of 103rd

Other than we established that there is no point to the garage game, what would be the reason? 29 runs within 1/2 block of 77th garage (on State or Lafayette at 77th), and you obviously can make street relief there. Unless you are saying that everything from 95/Ryan should be at 103rd, but the deadhead from there to 77th is less than to 103. 77 clearly has the space.

[cta5658]

Other than we established that there is no point to the garage game, what would be the reason? 29 runs within 1/2 block of 77th garage (on State or Lafayette at 77th), and you obviously can make street relief there. Unless you are saying that everything from 95/Ryan should be at 103rd, but the deadhead from there to 77th is less than to 103. 77 clearly has the space.

How's about the #29 stay at 77th But the #95W Operates out of 103?

[Busjack]

How's about the #29 stay at 77th But the #95W Operates out of 103?

Do you have any reason?

[rmadisonwi]

How's about the #29 stay at 77th But the #95W Operates out of 103?

How's about we move every route from its current garage to the garage with the next-higher run number prefix? That way, all 103rd Garage routes would move to Chicago, Chicago routes would move to 74th, 74th routes would move to 77th, 77th to Archer, Archer to Forest Glen, Forest Glen to Kedzie, and Kedzie to North Park.

For North Park, we could either move those routes to 103rd, or we could build a new garage with a prefix that comes after P.

Then, we'll take the first digit from each route number and move it to the end of the route number, and then add "ay." So, the 29 would become the 92ay, the 151 would become the 511ay, and the 95W could become the 5W9ay. Single-digit routes would be eliminated. Routes that currently end in 0 (such as 20 or 90) would keep their numbers, but we'd add a negative sign in front of them.

Then all of the destination signs would spell the words backwards. So, you'd have a destination sign that says "511ay nadirehS." I think that would be cool.

[Busjack]

Single-digit routes would be eliminated. Routes that currently end in 0 (such as 20 or 90) would keep their numbers, but we'd add a negative sign in front of them.

Didn't Frank Kruesi have a plan like that about 8 years ago? Something like all routes on crooked streets would start with 9 (Grand would be 971), express routes would start with 8 (so Jeffrey Express would be 820), etc. Only south side e-w streets would keep their route numbers. The justification was that CTA has to replace its bus stop signs anyway.

Then all of the destination signs would spell the words backwards. So, you'd have a destination sign that says "511ay nadirehS." I think that would be cool.

Works for secnalubma.