NABI artics and retirement of TMCs and 5300s

[Tritransit Area]

Hi there,

I'm from out of the area (Philadelphia to be exact), so please forgive my ignorance on these topics.

I read that both the 1991 TMCs as well as the 5300 series Metro Bs are being replaced by this New Flyer order (which really is quite a shame). These New Flyers...they aren't of the new front and rear end design? How many are being ordered?

I ask all of this because I'm hoping to make my way back to Chicago for the first time in about 6 years (last time I was there, I saw Americanas running about as well as the D901s - too bad I never got pictures). The only CTA bus I ever rode was the TMC on the 151 Sheridan line, and i was hoping to get my final ride in before they go.

Are these buses planned to be replaced by the end of next year? I was hoping to maybe visit Chicago next Spring or so, but i really want to be able to find and ride a TMC easily. BTW, what transmission do they have? I could've sworn it was an Allison HT (which would be impossible with the RTSs V-drive). Do they have ZFs?

In regards to the NABIs, are those the only artics running in the city? What routes tend to run them?

This is an interesting site, and I truly hope to make it back to Chicago again very soon. If I set a date, I'd probably ask more questions regarding good photography locations and whatnot as I start planning what to do! :)

[rmadisonwi]

1) Even though the first batch of New Flyers went towards retiring a bunch of Flxibles, from this point on the buses seem to be retired on a "whichever is in worst shape" basis. That said, there are still over 400 TMCs and 150 Flxibles left, so they'll be around for at least another year or so (assuming the service cuts don't go through).

2) Almost every bus in the fleet (except for the 5300-series Flxibles, I believe) have ZF transmissions.

3) If you're referring to CTA as "the city," then yes, the NABI artics are the only buses running. There was a thread in another forum on this site about some ex-Houston artics being delivered to Colonial, and you'll also occasionally see an articulated highway coach rolling around. Others on here may be able to give you more info on where those are found.

CTA's artics tend to stick to downtown routes. You'll see them on a lot of the 130-series (134, 135, 136) LaSalle Expresses and 140-series (145, 146, 147, 148) Michigan Expresses, and the 156 LaSalle heading to the north side. To/from the south side, you may see them on the 6, 14, and 26 (and occasionally the 2, or possibly even X28 depending on what the fleet situation is at the garage when trying to make pullout for the day). Some weekend 151 trips run artics as well. For special events, you may see artics on other routes.

[geneking7320]

Hi there,

I'm from out of the area (Philadelphia to be exact), so please forgive my ignorance on these topics.

I read that both the 1991 TMCs as well as the 5300 series Metro Bs are being replaced by this New Flyer order (which really is quite a shame). These New Flyers...they aren't of the new front and rear end design? How many are being ordered?

I ask all of this because I'm hoping to make my way back to Chicago for the first time in about 6 years (last time I was there, I saw Americanas running about as well as the D901s - too bad I never got pictures). The only CTA bus I ever rode was the TMC on the 151 Sheridan line, and i was hoping to get my final ride in before they go.

Are these buses planned to be replaced by the end of next year? I was hoping to maybe visit Chicago next Spring or so, but i really want to be able to find and ride a TMC easily. BTW, what transmission do they have? I could've sworn it was an Allison HT (which would be impossible with the RTSs V-drive). Do they have ZFs?

In regards to the NABIs, are those the only artics running in the city? What routes tend to run them?

This is an interesting site, and I truly hope to make it back to Chicago again very soon. If I set a date, I'd probably ask more questions regarding good photography locations and whatnot as I start planning what to do!

Welcome to the forum.

I don't think RM mentioned it but CTA's New Flyers are of the old design and not like the fronts of the ETBs SEPTA is receiving.BTW, congrats on the restart of the North Philly ETB routes.

[Busjack]

I read that both the 1991 TMCs as well as the 5300 series Metro Bs are being replaced by this New Flyer order (which really is quite a shame).

Are these buses planned to be replaced by the end of next year?

According to the presentation supporting the exercise of the options, the last New Flyers would be delivered in 2/2009. That was projected to be the end of the 1991 buses, as page 11 of the report says that there will then still be 400 buses with an average life of 14 years (in fact 395 buses were purchased in 1995). Hence, if present service levels are maintained, there will still be 330 1995 Flxs (less any junked) still around. However, if the Doomsday plan goes into effect, CTA will need about 380 fewer buses, and the 1991 ones may be gone (or at least mothballed) far sooner than one expects.

[BusExpert32]

Hi there,

I'm from out of the area (Philadelphia to be exact), so please forgive my ignorance on these topics.

I read that both the 1991 TMCs as well as the 5300 series Metro Bs are being replaced by this New Flyer order (which really is quite a shame). These New Flyers...they aren't of the new front and rear end design? How many are being ordered?

I ask all of this because I'm hoping to make my way back to Chicago for the first time in about 6 years (last time I was there, I saw Americanas running about as well as the D901s - too bad I never got pictures). The only CTA bus I ever rode was the TMC on the 151 Sheridan line, and i was hoping to get my final ride in before they go.

Are these buses planned to be replaced by the end of next year? I was hoping to maybe visit Chicago next Spring or so, but i really want to be able to find and ride a TMC easily. BTW, what transmission do they have? I could've sworn it was an Allison HT (which would be impossible with the RTSs V-drive). Do they have ZFs?

In regards to the NABIs, are those the only artics running in the city? What routes tend to run them?

This is an interesting site, and I truly hope to make it back to Chicago again very soon. If I set a date, I'd probably ask more questions regarding good photography locations and whatnot as I start planning what to do!

The only garage you will be able to spot a TMC out of easily will be 74th Garage in Spring 2008, since by then North Park and 103rd Garage will have a good portion of their New Flyers. Also, 74th will still be the only garage that is 100% high floor buses in Spring 2008 and I still feel that the reason is because most of the 74th routes run in unsafe neighborhoods (such as Englewood).

[BusExpert32]

Another thing, if you want to catch a ride on one of the remaining 5300 Flxibles when you visit Chicago in the near future, you will have to camp out in a certain area that has a route that is either from Chicago, Kedzie, or 103rd Garage. This kind of camping out might not always work and sometimes you might just have to be lucky. Also, you might have to wait time consuming minutes, hours, and sometimes you won't even catch a Flxible. Trust me, I've been there. I've done that.

[Busjack]

Another thing, if you want to catch a ride on one of the remaining 5300 Flxibles when you visit Chicago in the near future, you will have to camp out in a certain area that has a route that is either from Chicago, Kedzie, or 103rd Garage. This kind of camping out might not always work and sometimes you might just have to be lucky. Also, you might have to wait time consuming minutes, hours, and sometimes you won't even catch a Flxible. Trust me, I've been there. I've done that.

Even though you previously said that they were disproportionately on 66 and 70?

First of all, there are some bad areas west of the Ukrainian Village where buses can get ruined on Division and Chicago. This is the reason why most of the 48 Flxibles run on 66 and 70 most of the time. Your 17% of Flxibles on the roster doesn't matter since we're not talking about all the Chicago Garage routes.

Please stop arguing in circles.

[BusExpert32]

Even though you previously said that they were disproportionately on 66 and 70? Please stop arguing in circles.

First off, I previously said that the Flxibles were disproportionate on 66 and 70 because they were. But now with 20 Flxibles getting shipped out to 103rd, it is really hard to find one of the remaining 48 5300s anywhere. I've tried, but no sightings.

Also, we're all arguing in a circle not just me, and you also take part in the discussion so I wouldn't be talking about arguing in circles.

[qwantae]

Hi there,

I'm from out of the area (Philadelphia to be exact), so please forgive my ignorance on these topics.

I read that both the 1991 TMCs as well as the 5300 series Metro Bs are being replaced by this New Flyer order (which really is quite a shame). These New Flyers...they aren't of the new front and rear end design? How many are being ordered?

I ask all of this because I'm hoping to make my way back to Chicago for the first time in about 6 years (last time I was there, I saw Americanas running about as well as the D901s - too bad I never got pictures). The only CTA bus I ever rode was the TMC on the 151 Sheridan line, and i was hoping to get my final ride in before they go.

Are these buses planned to be replaced by the end of next year? I was hoping to maybe visit Chicago next Spring or so, but i really want to be able to find and ride a TMC easily. BTW, what transmission do they have? I could've sworn it was an Allison HT (which would be impossible with the RTSs V-drive). Do they have ZFs?

In regards to the NABIs, are those the only artics running in the city? What routes tend to run them?

This is an interesting site, and I truly hope to make it back to Chicago again very soon. If I set a date, I'd probably ask more questions regarding good photography locations and whatnot as I start planning what to do!

You are from Philly, I see that SEPTA has been received bunch of New Flyers in the last 4 years. Gees how many do they have now?

[qwantae]

Another thing, if you want to catch a ride on one of the remaining 5300 Flxibles when you visit Chicago in the near future, you will have to camp out in a certain area that has a route that is either from Chicago, Kedzie, or 103rd Garage. This kind of camping out might not always work and sometimes you might just have to be lucky. Also, you might have to wait time consuming minutes, hours, and sometimes you won't even catch a Flxible. Trust me, I've been there. I've done that.

Me too,

I remember back in early 2004, when I visit Chicago almost every weekend, I was camping out at between 103rd for 1982-83 MAN Articulated (7200-7400) to catch em on Rt 14. And in the north side for 1985 MAN Americana (4000s) and 1983 Articulated (7300s) to catch em on Rts 145,146 &147. It wasn't that hard at that time until Fall 2004 when 4000s and half of 7300s were scrapped when those Cheap NABIs 7700s came around. Yes I did wait for up to hours for it, but It was worth it.

[BusExpert32]

Me too,

I remember back in early 2004, when I visit Chicago almost every weekend, I was camping out at between 103rd for 1982-83 MAN Articulated (7200-7400) to catch em on Rt 14. And in the north side for 1985 MAN Americana (4000s) and 1983 Articulated (7300s) to catch em on Rts 145,146 &147. It wasn't that hard at that time until Fall 2004 when 4000s and half of 7300s were scrapped when those Cheap NABIs 7700s came around. Yes I did wait for up to hours for it, but It was worth it.

I also used to do that with the old 1983 Flyers at Forest Glen Garage in 2001 and 2002 when they were getting retired and scrapped. They used to run usually on the 152 Addison, 81W West Lawrence, and 68 Northwest Hwy routes. When only a few of them were left, I did wait a long time to catch one, but guess what, It was worth it.

[qwantae]

I also used to do that with the old 1983 Flyers at Forest Glen Garage in 2001 and 2002 when they were getting retired and scrapped. They used to run usually on the 152 Addison, 81W West Lawrence, and 68 Northwest Hwy routes. When only a few of them were left, I did wait a long time to catch one, but guess what, It was worth it.

Ohh, I loved those 1983 Flyers, I was last rode those in 2000 on #94 California from Archer Garage, it was easier then, of course I rode others from Forest Glen on two of those entire routes: #54A North Cicero to one of my favorite malls (Old Orchard Mall) and #91 Austin From Jeff to Roosevelt. Those were the Good old Days. Anyone know does San Francisco still have those Flyers D901s?

[cta5658]

Another thing, if you want to catch a ride on one of the remaining 5300 Flxibles when you visit Chicago in the near future, you will have to camp out in a certain area that has a route that is either from Chicago, Kedzie, or 103rd Garage. This kind of camping out might not always work and sometimes you might just have to be lucky. Also, you might have to wait time consuming minutes, hours, and sometimes you won't even catch a Flxible. Trust me, I've been there. I've done that.

I rode 5629 on the #14 headed north and 5632 on the #14 headed south

[Tritransit Area]

You are from Philly, I see that SEPTA has been received bunch of New Flyers in the last 4 years. Gees how many do they have now?

SEPTA has more than enough New Flyers now (although, not as many as CTA will have when they are done with this order). It's actually hard to believe that before 2001, SEPTA was New Flyer-less (except for the demo in 2000 I guess).

There are now over 650 New Flyers, with the orders being broken down as follows:

300 D40LFs w/ DD50s and Allisons - 5401-5600, 5613 to 5712 (the "5600s" are now being repowered with Cummins ISL engines, as the DD50s with EGRs - different from the other 200 - are horrendous)

32 DE40LFs w/ ISLs and Allison Hybridrive - 5601H - 5612H, 5831H to 5850H

218 D40LFs w/ DD50s and ZF Ecomat II 6HP-592 - 5713 - 5830, 5851 to 5950

120 D40LFs w/ ISL and ZF Ecomat II 6HP-592 - 8000 to 8119

Then, we'll have 38 E40LFRs coming in 2008 - 800 to 837. So far we are testing the demo 800.

I guess that totals up to 670 New Flyers in active service (671 if you count the demo).

The New Flyers are holding up decently, save for the DD50 in the 5600s. People like them, but unfortunately, they came at a cost, retiring all but 35 of our beloved Neoplans...

You can find a lot of information about SEPTA on my website (well, I run it with a group) called Philadelphia Transit Vehicles at http://www.philadelphiatransitvehicles.cjb.net.

[Tritransit Area]

Ohh, I loved those 1983 Flyers, I was last rode those in 2000 on #94 California from Archer Garage, it was easier then, of course I rode others from Forest Glen on two of those entire routes: #54A North Cicero to one of my favorite malls (Old Orchard Mall) and #91 Austin From Jeff to Roosevelt. Those were the Good old Days. Anyone know does San Francisco still have those Flyers D901s?

I'm not sure in San Francisco still would have them - maybe they were replaced by Neoplans? Surely they would be retired very soon with all of those Orion VII hybrids coming in.

In regards to CTA's D901s, did those have the 6v92TA/Allison V731 (with long gears)? When I was in Chicago in 2001, I remember seeing exactly 1 of them go by when i was in a restaurant. I was so excited - it was the first time I ever saw one in real life. Are there any pictures of them out there?

I was similarly excited when I saw MAN Americanas out there. I had never seen those buses before, and with those driver windows and the fishbowled windshieled, I thought they were a (quite hideous) type of Neoplan. I wish I could have ridden them too.

[trainman8119]

In regards to CTA's D901s, did those have the 6v92TA/Allison V731 (with long gears)? When I was in Chicago in 2001, I remember seeing exactly 1 of them go by when i was in a restaurant. I was so excited - it was the first time I ever saw one in real life. Are there any pictures of them out there?

I was similarly excited when I saw MAN Americanas out there. I had never seen those buses before, and with those driver windows and the fishbowled windshieled, I thought they were a (quite hideous) type of Neoplan. I wish I could have ridden them too.

Take a look at this site:

http://hometown.aol.com/chirailfan/

Then go to the bus roster page. There is a photo page and you will find a New Flyer along with a few other delights !!!!

[qwantae]

The only garage you will be able to spot a TMC out of easily will be 74th Garage in Spring 2008, since by then North Park and 103rd Garage will have a good portion of their New Flyers. Also, 74th will still be the only garage that is 100% high floor buses in Spring 2008 and I still feel that the reason is because most of the 74th routes run in unsafe neighborhoods (such as Englewood).

I wouldnt think that North Park will give up their 4400s TMCs that quick, they were the first ones who got TMCs and they run better than other garages.,

In my opinion that 74th and North Park,maybe Kedzie would be couple garages left with TMCs in 2008 until the entire of them will be retire.

At Least TMCs are sticking around through 2009. But we dont need so many New Flyers, they should get the Van Hools like Oakland (AC Transit), they are very nice looking European Buses.

[qwantae]

SEPTA has more than enough New Flyers now (although, not as many as CTA will have when they are done with this order). It's actually hard to believe that before 2001, SEPTA was New Flyer-less (except for the demo in 2000 I guess).

There are now over 650 New Flyers, with the orders being broken down as follows:

300 D40LFs w/ DD50s and Allisons - 5401-5600, 5613 to 5712 (the "5600s" are now being repowered with Cummins ISL engines, as the DD50s with EGRs - different from the other 200 - are horrendous)

32 DE40LFs w/ ISLs and Allison Hybridrive - 5601H - 5612H, 5831H to 5850H

218 D40LFs w/ DD50s and ZF Ecomat II 6HP-592 - 5713 - 5830, 5851 to 5950

120 D40LFs w/ ISL and ZF Ecomat II 6HP-592 - 8000 to 8119

Then, we'll have 38 E40LFRs coming in 2008 - 800 to 837. So far we are testing the demo 800.

I guess that totals up to 670 New Flyers in active service (671 if you count the demo).

The New Flyers are holding up decently, save for the DD50 in the 5600s. People like them, but unfortunately, they came at a cost, retiring all but 35 of our beloved Neoplans...

You can find a lot of information about SEPTA on my website (well, I run it with a group) called Philadelphia Transit Vehicles at http://www.philadelphiatransitvehicles.cjb.net.

What about those Mid-90s Ikarus and Late 80s of Neoplan Penniliners, do SEPTA still have them?

[qwantae]

I'm not sure in San Francisco still would have them - maybe they were replaced by Neoplans? Surely they would be retired very soon with all of those Orion VII hybrids coming in.

In regards to CTA's D901s, did those have the 6v92TA/Allison V731 (with long gears)? When I was in Chicago in 2001, I remember seeing exactly 1 of them go by when i was in a restaurant. I was so excited - it was the first time I ever saw one in real life. Are there any pictures of them out there?

I was similarly excited when I saw MAN Americanas out there. I had never seen those buses before, and with those driver windows and the fishbowled windshieled, I thought they were a (quite hideous) type of Neoplan. I wish I could have ridden them too.

Maybe you are right, SF MUNI had just got those new Neoplan LFs and probably replaced the D901s. I have plenty of pictures of CTA's and Boston MBTA D901s if you want a copy of them, but I've just found out that Toronto TTC still have few of D901s on their fleet. I'll be going there and visit by end of this year.

Yes they did have the Allison V731 (with long gears), otherwise most of them sounded similar to 5300s Flxibles.

[RailBus63]

I'm not sure in San Francisco still would have them - maybe they were replaced by Neoplans? Surely they would be retired very soon with all of those Orion VII hybrids coming in.

The San Francisco Muni D-902's were indeed retired after the Neoplans arrived. The Orion hybrids that are now arriving are replacing the last of the New Flyer D40's from 1988-89 and the Orion I 30-footers.

Jim

[Tritransit Area]

Welcome to the forum.

I don't think RM mentioned it but CTA's New Flyers are of the old design and not like the fronts of the ETBs SEPTA is receiving.BTW, congrats on the restart of the North Philly ETB routes.

That's a whole bunch of boring 2007/2008 New Flyers...but at least they run with ZFs!

Yes, it took a lot of arm twisting (including from the FTA!) to get SEPTA to bring back those routes, but thankfully, the ETBs are returning!

However, this is a bittersweet thing, as the E40LFRs will replace the last of the SEPTA Neoplan AN440 (which are about 18 years )

[Tritransit Area]

What about those Mid-90s Ikarus and Late 80s of Neoplan Penniliners, do SEPTA still have them?

Yes indeed - the 35 Neoplans I referred to before are the 1989 Neoplan "EZs". Those buses will be retired next year by the ETBs. ALL of these buses run out of Frankford depot (literally right across from Frankford Transportation Center).

The American Ikarus/NABI buses are still out there in full force. In fact, I ride them daily to/from work. SEPTA is planning to begin their retirement in 2009, but we don't know who is going to be the builder for their replacements.