New 3500 series Train Cars- When Are We Getting Them?

[Chi-town Kid]

I know a while ago the CTA was considering bids for companies for the new 3500 train cars to replace the 2200 and possibly the 2400 cars. However, I haven't heard any news about this recently. When are the new 3500 series coming in and what will they look like?

[jesi2282]

We should be getting the prototype in late 2008, with delivery starting sometime in 2010. Also they will be called the 5000 series not the 3500 series. They will be built by Bombardier.

[Busjack]

Why don't you look at the presentation and tell us?

[geneking7320]

Gee I wish they hadn't ordered the cars with "bowling alley" seats. :(

[trainman8119]

Gee I wish they hadn't ordered the cars with "bowling alley" seats.

I agree very much with this statement. They are suppose to be more efficient. You know, more room for strollers that people won't fold, bikes people won't ride, and of course more room to stand since they don't put seats in public transit vehicles any more. I guess if you don't ride trains (or buses) and make decisions in a board room, on paper it works.

[RJL6000]

Blame some of this on Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act, passed by the federal government back in 1973, as well as the Americans With Disabilities Act, which went into effect in 1990. The 1973 act pretty much did away with the blinker doors, which could not accomodate a wheelchair, on newly-built rail cars. The 1990 act required full handicapped-accessibility on all newly-manufactured public transportation vehicles -- buses and trains. When the CTA received the 2400s, they had to use "bowling-alley" seating near the doors -- but that was due to the electrical equipment around the doors which left no room to accomodate the "theater-row" seating arrangement. The same holds true for the 2600s and the 3200s (though the 3200s came with single seats in some areas).

As for my seating preference, I don't care much for the old seating arrangement. That is because I always stand inside a moving train even when there are seats available.

[Busjack]

Since those statutes were in effect before the 3200s were ordered, they certainly don't mandate bowling alley seats in the 5000s. For that matter, the 2600s appear to be ADA compliant. Chicago-L.org documents the testing process.

[BUSANGEL#1]

The new trains coming in are 5000 series not 3500. We already have 3500 series from the 3200 series batch. So why is this forum topic on 3500 series?

[trainman8119]

The new trains coming in are 5000 series not 3500. We already have 3500 series from the 3200 series batch. So why is this forum topic on 3500 series?

Not that it really makes a difference, but where are there 3500 series L cars. The 3200 series goes up to 3456, which were originally the Skokie cantenary cars (3440-3456 or so), which since have become just regular old 3400's (with the platform on the roof where the poles used to be). There never was any 3500's.

The reason, as discussed much earlier, these new cars will be numbered in the 5000 range as opposed to continuing on from 3500 is that they will be DC powered instead of AC (or the other way around...whatever).

[westing]

It will be interesting to see the prototype car arrive. I will sure miss the old roll signs. The LED destination signs pose a few problems. In the board presentation they list them having "bright amber LED displays". I can sort of see an argument for the readability of LED signs accessibility-wise. Yet, if the signs are all amber, the color coding system becomes worthless. Why have colors if every sign will be orange? The WMATA has monochrome signs on older trains that require a sign in the window denoting line color. On the newest cars two strips of color were added to either side of the line name. I think the CTA will find riders look for a split second to see the color and processing the line name will lead to more passengers bolting to the doors realizing they stepped aboard the wrong train. Why else did WMATA place good old manual signs in the windows?

Will a textured floor work in Chicago's snowy conditions? The grooved floor we have now acts as a great collection grid for all the grime and water of winter. Without this I predict there would be more slipping and accidents. It would be easier to clean but would it be as safe?

Since we're on the the topic of new rail cars, I always wondered why the CTA hasn't designed a married pair of rail cars that would share a common center truck and be articulated? This would allow passengers more room to move by eliminating the doors between two married pair cars. The 5000 series, the originals, were three cars that were articulated. I can see benefits of reduced maintenance with one less truck, more space, and better security. Maybe there is something I am overlooking though, but it seems like a good idea.

[Busjack]

Since we're on the the topic of new rail cars, I always wondered why the CTA hasn't designed a married pair of rail cars that would share a common center truck and be articulated? This would allow passengers more room to move by eliminating the doors between two married pair cars. The 5000 series, the originals, were three cars that were articulated. I can see benefits of reduced maintenance with one less truck, more space, and better security. Maybe there is something I am overlooking though, but it seems like a good idea.

• As Krambles pointed out, when CTA stopped with the original 5000s articulated design after 4 test units and went with the married pairs, one has to disconnect the articulation to work on the cars, which is a problem; you would need a drop pit, and probably need to hoist the #2 ends of both cars. With the married pairs, one only has to remove the bolts on the drawbars to disconnect the cars.
  
• Removing a truck would remove 2 motors, thereby losing 200 hp. Conceivably one could use 133 hp motors, but they might be larger, and then you probably would need larger trucks.
  

[westing]

• As Krambles pointed out, when CTA stopped with the original 5000s articulated design after 4 test units and went with the married pairs, one has to disconnect the articulation to work on the cars, which is a problem; you would need a drop pit, and probably need to hoist the #2 ends of both cars. With the married pairs, one only has to remove the bolts on the drawbars to disconnect the cars.
  
• Removing a truck would remove 2 motors, thereby losing 200 hp. Conceivably one could use 133 hp motors, but they might be larger, and then you probably would need larger trucks.
  

True, articulated units would involve more maintenance but the technology is readily used in America. Light rail vehicles utilize articulated married paris on nearly every system built since the 70's. A problem with the 5000s were they were a three car set compared to a two car. That extra length would make them much more difficult to maintain. Also, the technology was not present or matured as it is today.

Bombardier has created for other cities metro cars that are articulated without sharing trucks. This example shows how nice a 4 car set would look. If these were easy to maintain, that could even be an option. It seems the CTA hardly ever runs 2 car trains anymore, 4 car units would reduce costs of making trains up. Open cars could deter vandalism, and provide safety and comfort. Yet, with the CTA's sluggish pace of technological advances in railcar development, I doubt anything like this would occur in the next 30 years.

[Busjack]

That extra length would make them much more difficult to maintain. Also, the technology was not present or matured as it is today.

Bombardier has created for other cities metro cars that are articulated without sharing trucks. This example shows how nice a 4 car set would look. If these were easy to maintain, that could even be an option. It seems the CTA hardly ever runs 2 car trains anymore, 4 car units would reduce costs of making trains up. Open cars could deter vandalism, and provide safety and comfort. Yet, with the CTA's sluggish pace of technological advances in railcar development, I doubt anything like this would occur in the next 30 years.

The first statement is untrue. Krambles book said that the 5000s were the same length and had the same carrying capacity as a pair of 6000s, and they had no advantage, other than on the Skokie Swift, where they provided a larger one man car than the 1-50 series double ended single units. However, since now 8 car trains are single operator, that doesn't seem to make a difference.

Saying that there are also articulated cars that don't share trucks destroys the premise of your prior post. I suppose that CTA could order cars with bellows, but hasn't.

Also saying that other companies have made articulated light rail cars does not establish that they work (i.e. there have been a lot of problems with Breda low floor cars derailing in SF and Boston) or that they would be suitable for rapid transit use.

[geneking7320]

Hi Folks;

Keep an eye out for the new cars the TTC has on the way. I don't believe they will artics but they will come as "one train" with bellow between the units. I the manufacturer is Bombardier and you'll be able to walk through the whole consist like in the pics shown in a previous post. I wonder if such a car would work here.

Gene

[Busjack]

Hi Folks;

Keep an eye out for the new cars the TTC has on the way. I don't believe they will artics but they will come as "one train" with bellow between the units. I the manufacturer is Bombardier and you'll be able to walk through the whole consist like in the pics shown in a previous post. I wonder if such a car would work here.

Gene

It appears from a TTC presentation that the request for proposals was just issued, and it is more conceptual than actually prescribing a design. One site has a mockup of a possible Bombardier design (based on the Minneapolis cars), but it is just that (and has the caveat "Maybe").

[geneking7320]

It appears from a TTC presentation that the request for proposals was just issued, and it is more conceptual than actually prescribing a design. One site has a mockup of a possible Bombardier design (based on the Minneapolis cars), but it is just that (and has the caveat "Maybe").

In my previous post I was actually referring to future TTC subway cars.

You can find more about them at the site you mentioned.

Gene

[Busjack]

In my previous post I was actually referring to future TTC subway cars.

You can find more about them at the site you mentioned.

Gene

Thanks.

I found a link. Apparently they are going to be six car trains with cabs only on the end. Probably wouldn't be feasible for CTA, since, supposedly the first applications of the 5000s would be on the Blue and Pink Lines, and the Pink Line usually has only 4 car trains, while the Blue 8, but probably reduced during off peak times.

[sw4400]

Thanks.

I found a link. Apparently they are going to be six car trains with cabs only on the end. Probably wouldn't be feasible for CTA, since, supposedly the first applications of the 5000s would be on the Blue and Pink Lines, and the Pink Line usually has only 4 car trains, while the Blue 8, but probably reduced during off peak times.

With the Brown Line Expansion continuing until 2009(the year the Bombadiers are due), my guess is the 3200's from both the Brown and Orange Lines will be dispersed to the Blue and Pink Lines, and they'll start putting them here. These cars cannot link with other series due to them being AC, and the others being DC. The 3200's from the Brown and Orange Lines will replace the 2200's already way beyond service life, IMO(39 years is a long time). Then as more units come in after the Brown and Orange Lines have the required amount of cars, the 2400's will be replaced on the Purple and Green Lines, and any 2600's that these lines have will be dispersed to whatever lines need them(most likely Blue and Pink).

[Busjack]

Doesn't agree with what Kruesi said when the contract was awarded, but, of course, he gone.