CTA roll sign...

[andrethebusman]

I saw a couple of those, but they were not buses from 69th barn. I have a feeling that they might just have been short Limits runs.

The 55-Morgan ones seemed a leftover from when 55 55 STREET was just between Museum and Morgan, and maybe filled in during times when the old 55 ran but the old 6 Garfield didn't. However, when 55 was extended to Cicero, the usual daytime short turn was at St. Louis, where it still is.

Originally in 1969, 55 was almost all times except 1-5am, while 6 was a bit shorter, especially Sunday morning starting at 9am (a remnant of CMC WW2 service cuts, believe it or not!). So last few trips in the evening and first few in the morning (quite a few on Sunday morning) were to Morgan only. Eventually the Sunday morning trips were extended to Western, and when 55 picked up owl service the need for Morgan turns disappeared.

[pudgym29]

I was unable to see my own photographs of the Kedzie garage side sign on page 1 of this topic. So I re-uploaded them and have edited that post.

Those of you who referred them into your replies may want to make a similar edit.

[Busjack]

I was unable to see my own photographs of the Kedzie garage side sign on page 1 of this topic. So I re-uploaded them and have edited that post.

Those of you who referred them into your replies may want to make a similar edit.

On that one, it depends how many splices are in it. Apparently 158/158A signs coexisted with 120/121, but 149 Stateliner and 157 Streeterville were somewhat after 1972, as originally they were 149 Michigan State Wacker and 157 Ohio Union Station. The Stateliner designation was on a roof sign on the 1300s, but I don't believe yet reflected on the roll signs. 21 pretty obviously is a splice, and must reflect after Lawndale barn closed (in 1973). Then there is the more "modern" font on 82.

Other than that, 126 and 131 illustrate Andre's point on how express side signs had route numbers.

[andrethebusman]

Roof signs for 149 (and 148) go back to 1950's. There were 1300 TD4506's that had "Shuttle service" roof signs, then 8474-8498 Flxibles, then 1340-1354 5307's. In early 50's 148 and 149 had buses painted in a special red and black paint job, both 61-72 series TDH3207's and TD4506's.

157 changed from Ohio-Union Station to Streeterville when it was rerouted via Randolph-Clinton-Jackson-Canal-Washington to go by both NW and Union Stas. 149 became "Stateliner" about 1975, before the all-new sign curtains were made, but not long before.

[Piesciuk]

Because "55 Museum" was always a terminal on 55, so somehow you got a sign that is missing readings. Maybe when CTA spliced in readings for the extension resulting from the Dan Ryan restructuring they threw out too much of the old sign on that roll.

The 1969 Dan Ryan Edition map confirms that the east terminal was Museum:

Garfield 1969.jpg

I also said that even after the Dan Ryan changes, there was still a short terminal at 55-Morgan (technically Garfield-Morgan, but that's what the sign said). The continued existence of the short terminal is confirmed by this 1980 map:

garfield 1980.jpg

I thought there was a similar problem with 45, but maybe Andre explained that. But I lived 10 stories above 55th Street at the time at issue, so I sure know what signs the 55 bus had.

I photographed two different signs from 69th showing the readings they contained for 55 (attached).

[Busjack]

I photographed two different signs from 69th showing the readings they contained for 55 (attached).001.jpg005.jpg

I'm not sure of the vintage of these, especially since one of them has handwritten readings for the interior window for GMCs, while the other does not. 69th barn ran either Twin Coaches (5500+ series) or Flxibles (8800s) until late 1973. The 7500s had the new style signs (all with 55 GARFIELD on the headsign), but when the 8800s were moved out, some 100s were moved in, so the second sign might reflect that.

However, neither sign seems to reflect what was displayed from roughly 1969 to 1973, in that the terminal readings were "55 Museum" and "55 Cicero" and the fonts did not match. It looks like these "55 Cicero-Archer" and "55 57-Museum" are part of the same splice.

As the maps and Andre corroborate, there must have been a Morgan sign, which neither view shows.

[andrethebusman]

I photographed two different signs from 69th showing the readings they contained for 55 (attached).001.jpg005.jpg

Note how the two signs have the new readings in different order. This happened quite a bit in 1969-75 as more and more changes were made. In the original version, the order was South Damen-Garfield-Shopping District-Wacker/Depots-55th-59th/61st. The plan was to remove everything between the 50A DAMEN-ARCHER and 55 55-MORGAN and splice in the new 55th readings in the order shown on the sign on the left. The sign on the right had the two new sections reversed, you will notice, from the sign on the left. Then later, it was decided that one old reading (55 MUSEUM) and one new reading (55 CICERO) were to be replaced with 55 57-MUSEUM and 55 CICERO-ARCHER, and 55 55-MORGAN also going away as unneeded. But note that the splices were not put in the same place on both signs! Then several years later, the 75 readings were added. They were supposed to go on the bottom, after the 59 readings, but the one on the right got them between the 50A and the 55! This is one of the reasons CTA put in all new signs in 1976-77. The old ones were getting so messy drivers could not find the sign they were looking for as it might be in three or four different places on different buses.

By the way, the last all-new signs pre-1975 for 69th were the 8700's, and their side signs were as follows:

CHARTERED

SOLDIER FIELD

ASHLAND

ASHLAND-ARCHER

WESTERN

63RD LIMITED

63 STREET

67-69-71 STREET

MARQUETTE

WALLACE-RACINE

DAMEN

GRAND

STATE-VAN BUREN

GARFIELD EXPRESS

Garfield Express

via Expwy (added)

GARFIELD

SHOPPING DISTRICT

WACKER-DEPOTS

55 STREET

59-61 STREET

NOT IN SERVICE

As an explanation for some of the oddities. GRAND was for a couple of AM rush trips that came off Garfield Express at Wabash/Wacker, went up to Grand and Orleans, then to Navy Pier, then back to Wabash/Wacker and back on Garfield. These ended in 9/69. STATE-VAN BUREN was a couple of AM rush trips before 1964 that again came up as Garfields to Wacker/Wabash, then went via Wacker, State, Van Buren, Canal to Jackson to start 158 service. The Main Post Office must have been considered a huge destination at the time as this is what these trips were intended to do - pick up at State/Van Buren and take folks to the P.O. 70-Division had a couple of AM trips that served the other end of the P.O. on Harrison, coming down State to Harrison then becoming 7's out Harrison to Pulaski then pulling in via Pulaski, Grand, North. These trips lasted into the early 70's.

[Busjack]

Note how the two signs have the new readings in different order. This happened quite a bit in 1969-75 as more and more changes were made. In the original version, the order was South Damen-Garfield-Shopping District-Wacker/Depots-55th-59th/61st. The plan was to remove everything between the 50A DAMEN-ARCHER and 55 55-MORGAN and splice in the new 55th readings in the order shown on the sign on the left. ....

By the way, the last all-new signs pre-1975 for 69th were the 8700's, and their side signs were as follows:

....

Apparently my comment on "vintage" wasn't far off.

If I'm correct that this is about 1974-1976, the newest of the signs would have been about 11 years old, and who knows how old the signs on the 5500 series Twin Coaches were.

Also, as indicated by my comments about the 100s coexisting with 7500s (roughly until the 9000s arrived and replaced most of what was at 69th), the sequence would have been different, because the sequence on my 7500s side sign is in numerical order, except for 45, which was assumed to be a branch of 9.

[andrethebusman]

Using 69th as an example, most destination signs at a given garage were identical in route order by the mid-1950's when the big shuffling associated with bus substitutions and barn closings had pretty much ended. There does not seem to be any real rhyme or reason in what order signs appeared. Apparently new routes were added wherever the person in charge of such things felt like it. For instance at 69th:

9/45 replaced streetcars 2/14/54

49 replaced streetcars 6/17/56

63 Limited new route 6/18/56

63 from 77th 5/30/54

67 replaced streetcars 5/24/53

110 separated from 6 as separate route 5/25/53

44 from 77th 5/30/54

50A from 77th 5/30/54

65 supplement 11/8/54

6 from 52nd 9/5/54 (along with associated 142, 158)

55 new route replacing east end of 51 6/21/59

59 from Archer 9/5/54

From this one can surmise:

Original roller had only 67 and 110 in 5/53

2/54 9/45 added to top

5/54 63 added between 45 and 67, also 44, 50A after 110

9/54 6/142/158, 59 added after 50A

11/54 65 added between 50A and 6 (associated with 6)

6/56 49, 63 Limited added between 45 and 63

6/59 55 added between 158 and 59

Make any sense? Maybe?

[andrethebusman]

Apparently my comment on "vintage" wasn't far off.

If I'm correct that this is about 1974-1976, the newest of the signs would have been about 11 years old, and who knows how old the signs on the 5500 series Twin Coaches were.

Also, as indicated by my comments about the 100s coexisting with 7500s (roughly until the 9000s arrived and replaced most of what was at 69th), the sequence would have been different, because the sequence on my 7500s side sign is in numerical order, except for 45, which was assumed to be a branch of 9.

7400-7944 had signs in a completely different order than anything before, being in numerical order. Only oddball was Forest Glen, where signs were still in the old random order, because with only 10 buses assigned (7935-7944) it was decided it would be too hard for drivers to get used to a new sign order.

[andrethebusman]

Here is another oddball situation regarding signs. Until 12/4/55 when Forest Glen opened, north side trolley buses were operated from two garages, North Ave and Lawrence (after 5/30/54 North Park). However, as neither Lawrence nor North Park had any kind of trolley bus facilities, all north side TT's (Brills, Pullmans, St Louis, Marmons, last prewars) were considered a single group, assigned to North Ave for maintenance, with Avondale Yard being basically a overnight storage yard. So drivers from two garages used buses from one. As a result, all north side TT's had signs for all north side routes (53-54-65-66-72-73-74-76-77-78-80-81-85-86). When Forest Glen opened, all Pullmans and St Louis and some Marmons were moved there and got new 78-80-81-85 curtains, while the Brills and rest of the Marmons stayed at North Av and had 76-78-80-81-85-86 excised from their curtains. Until the end North Av trolleys still had 73 and 66.

[Busjack]

On topic:

....

One more stray off-topic. I remember the first Helvetica roller sign I ever saw. It was on the 64 Foster-Lawrence heading east on Foster just east of Nottingham. I was in grade school and thought I mis-read the sign. Then I saw another one on the 88 Higgins at Natoma and realized I was NOT seeing things.

I don't recall that one. However, I recall the predecessor sign, and seem to recall that the side sign said either 64 VIA FOSTER or 64 VIA LAWRENCE. Similarly, in those days, there were either 96 LUNT or 96 TOUHY signs.

However, I am shaking my head whether (like electronic signs on circulator routes today that don't flip) the latter ones were always 96 LUNT HOWARD RT and 96 TOUHY MORSE RT or there was some sort of California or McCormick reading.

[FredG]

Hi,

I acquired a roll sign a few years back and was wondering if anyone could help date it. I also noticed a couple of things about the sign:

1) It is 53" wide, which is much larger than the other sign I have, which is more contemporary.

2) It seems to have only a fraction of the CTA routes.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Fred

[Busjack]

53 minutes ago, FredG said:

Hi,

I acquired a roll sign a few years back and was wondering if anyone could help date it. I also noticed a couple of things about the sign:

1) It is 53" wide, which is much larger than the other sign I have, which is more contemporary.

2) It seems to have only a fraction of the CTA routes.

Thank you in advance for your help.

Fred

On the "fraction of the routes," roll signs only had readings for the particular barn, including those for routes shared by barns.

At first, I thought that it was Lawndale Barn, but the Kedzie-Van Buren reading would indicate Kedzie. Is there a similar reading for Ogden-Pulaski? The 58 Ogden-Kedzie reading would again indicate Kedzie barn, as would the other short terminals, such as Homan-Jackson and 26-Kedzie.

The sign is definitely before 1974. The question basically is whether it was after Lawndale closed (or its closure was contemplated) around 1973, or Kedzie had already taken over some of its routes. For instance, 21 Cermak and 21B Douglas were Lawndale buses to the end, but I'm not sure about 58 and 60. Again, the question is whether this has 21 Cermak readings on it.

The other question is whether it has a lot of taped readings, as the style for 82 with "Kimball Homan" is more typical of the 1974 signs. However, that may have been a result of 82 being changed from Kedzie Homan, and there having been a separate Kimball route north of Logan Square.

The tabs to the right indicates that it was used on a GMC bus. If I were guessing, I would say a 1000 series bus (1972). If so, it would look like this bus. Lawndale ran 1960s era GMCs, but Kedzie did not.

 

 

[artthouwill]

Years ago, maybe 1978 or 1979 I remember seeing a 146 Sheridan Express bus.  I think the destination was Devon.  I was waiting for the 157 at Michigan and Randolph when it came going NB on Michigan.  

On this forum I recall seeing a 150 Sheridan Express roll curtain, but I thought the 150 actually became the 147.  My question is was the 146 I saw then a precursor to what became the 146 Marine/Michigan Express?

Edit:  Relooking at top of thread. I see the 150 was a Sheridan -LaSalle Express and there was a 151 Express which became 147.

[Busjack]

5 hours ago, artthouwill said:

Years ago, maybe 1978 or 1979 I remember seeing a 146 Sheridan Express bus.

That's what it was, at least from when the route numbers and Helvetica signs started in 1976. IIRC, the distinction was that the Sheridan Express left LSD at Wilson. However, if you looked at the side roll sign from the inside, you could see 146 Marine something on the  roller, so the restructuring must have been contemplated early on. At that time, Marine Drive was  a branch of 156.

At one point (at least with the all caps signs), the destination was Broadway-Rosemont, where there was a lineup (and the  former CMC garage). At that time, the route was via Granville and Broadway, as opposed to the current  routing on Sheridan to Broadway-Devon.

[artthouwill]

4 minutes ago, Busjack said:

That's what it was, at least from when the route numbers and Helvetica signs started in 1976. IIRC, the distinction was that the Sheridan Express left LSD at Wilson. However, if you looked at the side roll sign from the inside, you could see 146 Marine something on the  roller, so the restructuring must have been contemplated early on. At that time, Marine Drive was  a branch of 156.

At one point (at least with the all caps signs), the destination was Broadway-Rosemont, where there was a lineup (and the  former CMC garage). At that time, the route was via Granville and Broadway, as opposed to the current  routing on Sheridan to Broadway-Devon.

According to  what you said , not much difference between 146 and 147 before restructuring .I definitely remember the 151 doing the Granville-Broadway routing to Devon. I woulda thought the 146 Sheridan would've  exited at Irving Park to Sheridan it might to coldly duplicate the Wlson Expresses. As such, the original 146 Marne Michigan DID exit LSD at Irving Park. 

Was the 146 Sheridan a peak period route?  I only recall seeing it once and it was in P.M. rush.

[Busjack]

24 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

According to  what you said , not much difference between 146 and 147 before restructuring

Outer Drive Express (whether just that or 147) has pretty much always been what it is now: express to Foster and then local to Howard. As I noted  above, Sheridan Express ran local on Sheridan between Wilson and Granville. Only overlap was between Foster and Granville. Later versions of 146 eliminated that by running to Berwyn.

What was more confusing,  in the 1970s, were Wilson Expresses via Irving Park and Wilson-Outer Drive Expresses straight via Wilson.  

[andrethebusman]

Prior to 1976:

Wilson-Michigan Express - Outer Drive to Belmont

Wilson-Outer Drive Express - Outer Drive to Irving Park (originally to Wilson)

Wilson-LaSalle Express and LaSalle-Sheridan Express - Outer Drive to Wilson

Sheridan Express - Outer Drive to Wilson

Outer Drive Express - Outer Drive to Foster

7400 signs planned renumbering:

150-Sheridan/LaSalle Express

151-Sheridan Express via Wilson or via Foster

153-Wilson/Michigan Express

154-Marine/Michigan Express (old Wilson-Outer Drive Express)

156-Wilson/LaSalle Express

Actual r# 1977:

135-Wilson/LaSalle Express

136-Sheridan/LaSalle Express (note names reversed)

145-Wilson/Michigan Express

146-Sheridan Express

147 Outer Drive Express

148 Wilson/Michigan Outer Drive Express (note slight change in name)

1978 revisions:

146 Sheridan Express gone, new 146 Marine/Michigan Express

148 Wilson/Michigan Outer Drive Express gone

[Busjack]

There were also 145 and 146 locals at one time.

Prior to about 1977, Marine Dr. was connected to 156 instead of some route on Michigan.

[wordguy]

On 3/9/2017 at 12:15 PM, Busjack said:

On the "fraction of the routes," roll signs only had readings for the particular barn, including those for routes shared by barns.

At first, I thought that it was Lawndale Barn, but the Kedzie-Van Buren reading would indicate Kedzie. Is there a similar reading for Ogden-Pulaski? The 58 Ogden-Kedzie reading would again indicate Kedzie barn, as would the other short terminals, such as Homan-Jackson and 26-Kedzie.

The sign is definitely before 1974. The question basically is whether it was after Lawndale closed (or its closure was contemplated) around 1973, or Kedzie had already taken over some of its routes. For instance, 21 Cermak and 21B Douglas were Lawndale buses to the end, but I'm not sure about 58 and 60. Again, the question is whether this has 21 Cermak readings on it.

The other question is whether it has a lot of taped readings, as the style for 82 with "Kimball Homan" is more typical of the 1974 signs. However, that may have been a result of 82 being changed from Kedzie Homan, and there having been a separate Kimball route north of Logan Square.

The tabs to the right indicates that it was used on a GMC bus. If I were guessing, I would say a 1000 series bus (1972). If so, it would look like this bus. Lawndale ran 1960s era GMCs, but Kedzie did not.

 

 

If my memory serves me, the yellow field for rapid transit terminals first showed up with the arrival of the 7400s in late '73 or early '74. Kedzie's roster never included 7400s, but it did receive a slew of 9000s in 1975. Lawndale had been shut down 2 years earlier. All of its routes, I believe went to Kedzie; at least one route, Madison, shifted to the North Ave. barn. (Lawndale was temporarily reopened twice in the succeeding years, first for the Kedzie rebuild (1979-84[?]),  again after the closure of North Ave. (1988[?]) until the Chicago Ave. barn opened in 1994. Lawndale then closed for keeps.)  

Rough guess on the time frame for that roll sign: Sometime between 1975 (the arrival of the 9000s at Kedzie) and 1979(?), the closure of Kedzie for replacement by a new barn at the same location.)

[Busjack]

26 minutes ago, wordguy said:

If my memory serves me, the yellow field for rapid transit terminals first showed up with the arrival of the 7400s in late '73 or early '74.

It doesn't. There were full width yellows for RT before that, especially after Jefferson Park opened.

[wordguy]

23 hours ago, Busjack said:

It doesn't. There were full width yellows for RT before that, especially after Jefferson Park opened.

You're right, BJ. I forgot about that.

Hopefully, the rest of my information is reasonably accurate.

 

[Piesciuk]

We have some rollsign readings transcribed at http://irm-cta.org/Rollsigns.html

[andrethebusman]

On 7/10/2018 at 3:14 PM, Busjack said:

It doesn't. There were full width yellows for RT before that, especially after Jefferson Park opened.

North Park had yellow 96 HOWARD RAPID TRANSIT and 97 HOWARD RAPID TRANSIT readings by 1966. Also yellow 97 SKOKIE.

21B and 17 had partially yellow signs (route name part) since the 1950's.