X98

[ibebobo]

I was driving north on 94 tonight around 10:00 pm and saw a 4000 full of people with X98 showing and going to Morton Grove. I missed the rest.

What is this???

[jesi2282]

Route #X98 Avon Express is a express route that runs between Irving Park Blue Line nonstop to the Avon center in Morton Grove. The #X98 only has 3 trips a day and its always packed with workers.

[cta_44499_FG]

Route #X98 Avon Express is a express route that runs between Irving Park Blue Line nonstop to the Avon center in Morton Grove. The #X98 only has 3 trips a day and its always packed with workers.

Actually, on Saturdays the X98 only has ONE AM trip from Avon back to the Blue Line, as the workers usually don't work the weekends. However, when Avon has special production shifts for the holidays there will be other trips on Saturday (and sometimes Sunday, where there currently are none).

[ibebobo]

Actually, on Saturdays the X98 only has ONE AM trip from Avon back to the Blue Line, as the workers usually don't work the weekends. However, when Avon has special production shifts for the holidays there will be other trips on Saturday (and sometimes Sunday, where there currently are none).

So who pays for this? Also, who determines the schedule? Are there stops in between.

[Busjack]

So who pays for this? Also, who determines the schedule? Are there stops in between.

As I mentioned, it is A PRIVATE ROUTE. The last I heard, Workforce Development or some similar agency was paying. They also decided to take it away from Pace (425) and give it to CTA.

I suppose I could ride it from the Blue Line and then cross the street to go to Popeye's. I doubt that anyone does, though. (I prefer the Popeye's in Arlington Heights. Our ex-village president failed in his campaign promise four years ago to attract one closer.)

I'm surprised you were not aware of those things.

The rest you can find out by consulting the schedule.

[ibebobo]

As I mentioned, it is A PRIVATE ROUTE. The last I heard, Workforce Development or some similar agency was paying. They also decided to take it away from Pace (425) and give it to CTA.

I suppose I could ride it from the Blue Line and then cross the street to go to Popeye's. I doubt that anyone does, though. (I prefer the Popeye's in Arlington Heights. Our ex-village president failed in his campaign promise four years ago to attract one closer.)

I'm surprised you were not aware of those things.

The rest you can find out by consulting the schedule.

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this one. Do you (or anyone) believe there is any reason the CTA or Pace should be legally allowed to provide this service unless there is no private company able or willing to provide the service (which I can guarantee is NOT the case)?

[Busjack]

I was driving north on 94 tonight around 10:00 pm and saw a 4000 full of people with X98 showing and going to Morton Grove. I missed the rest.

I just thought of something. Since it was a 4000 (a leased vehicle) FTA funds were not involved. Too bad.

As to your second question, I asked you to investigate the UPS routes, too.

[ibebobo]

I just thought of something. Since it was a 4000 (a leased vehicle) FTA funds were not involved. Too bad.

As to your second question, I asked you to investigate the UPS routes, too.

A little investigating led me to Suburban Job link which is now Harborquest who works with the CTA on this route. The route is paid for by the riders, not by any privite entity.

[cta_44499_FG]

So who pays for this? Also, who determines the schedule? Are there stops in between.

I'm sure you've already seen there are none. Yes, anyone can ride the route.

[rideonrulez]

As long as the route is open to the PUBLIC, it meets FTA guidelines because it is not considered a CHARTER then...

[Busjack]

As long as the route is open to the PUBLIC, it meets FTA guidelines because it is not considered a CHARTER then...

Sort of like what RGRTA did to get around the school bus ruling against them. Check out their X schedules. Bus does not run when a High School is not in session and 1-1/2 hours earlier on Wednesday, and does not have the usual interlining (i.e. Route 1 Park to Lake), but it is a public route. The school bus operator got a Pyrrhic victory, even though there is a statutory requirement that FTA funded buses not compete with private school bus operators (unlike the motor coach one, which the statute only specifies intercity).

This issue is starting to look more moot with regard to Pace, with some Proviso East and West* runs being cut, and Pace appearing to be shocked that Schaumburg cut the weekday shuttles, as indicated by:

An updated schedule of service will be posted as soon as it is provided to Pace.

For more information, please contact the Schaumburg Transportation Department at 847.923.3861 or by e-mail at rbascomb@ci.schaumburg.il.us

Apparently, there was a contract, and Schaumburg had an out. Also, Pace wasn't operating the routes, in the sense of either scheduling them, or providing the drivers (contract operation), but just acted as a "middleman." In the case of 905, Schaumburg was "paying the fares," and in fact Pace refused a request by Schaumburg to install a farebox. But, they were "public routes," and apparently the scam Pace was using to use 905 to improve its recovery ratio is now cut back.

And, as I previously noted with respect to X98, since a 4000 was seen, which is a leased bus, the FTA isn't implicated at all.

Now, one can debate whether the transit authorities should be in the business of trying to bolster their recovery ratio with side deals with UPS, Suburban Job Link, Workforce Development in Gary, the U of C, Niles, school boards such as Waukegan that decide to purchase bus passes, etc., especially when sales tax money goes to subsidizing part of the fares (was not the case in Schaumburg), but the FTA regulation only seems to have teeth with regard to what is a safe haven for sports service, and, as you note, so long as there is a public schedule and posted fare, apparently is not violated, in a practical sense.

___________

*In case the Passenger Notices come down soon, I quote:

Proviso Township High School District 209 recently decided to provide private school bus service for students at Proviso East and Proviso West. For many years Pace has provided school tripper service to both schools.

Pace will continue to provide regular service to these schools but most of the school tripper service is no longer required due to low ridership.

As a result, Pace will be discontinuing the following school trips on Routes 301, 303 and 310 to both campuses effective Monday, April 13, 2009...

[ibebobo]

And, as I previously noted with respect to X98, since a 4000 was seen, which is a leased bus, the FTA isn't implicated at all.

I don't think that because it's a leased bus the CTA should be exempt from the rules. It's the fact that the CTA istself receives tax dollars. The driver gets paid from the CTA. The bus is fueled from the CTA, maintained by the CTA in funded garages....etc.

If that was the case, any agency could just go out and lease a few buses where they need them and get a contract.

[Busjack]

I don't think that because it's a leased bus the CTA should be exempt from the rules.

It isn't that they are exempt from the rules, it is because the rules only apply to federally funded capital.

The RGRTA wasn't exempt from the rules either, and lost a case, but, as the conclusion from rideonrulez's post indicates, since its school runs are now "public" apparently they "now come within the rules."

As you said before, I am not the judge, and, similarly, the FTA doesn't care what your opinion of their rules means. But, I also wouldn't be surprised if leasing the buses also gets 154 away from being under the FTA's thumb.

And, as I previously noted with respect to X98, since a 4000 was seen, which is a leased bus, the FTA isn't implicated at all.

... It's the fact that the CTA istself receives tax dollars. The driver gets paid from the CTA. The bus is fueled from the CTA, maintained by the CTA in funded garages....etc.

Now, if the above means as a matter of general policy, and we remove the FTA issue from the table, I noted before that I had a problem that sales tax money was subsidizing some of these routes, such as in Niles and the U of C, which are clearly subject to a contract between the transit authority and some other entity--and the fares, or most of them, are paid by the entity (in the U of C case, of students and employees)--although the routes are "public." Now, if you are saying that as a matter of state law, public transit authorities should not be providing or paying a subsidy for such services, I don't have a problem with that opinion. However, my response would be that state law should provide that transit authorities do not have the power to enter into such contracts, including the farcical ones like in Schaumburg, where the authority only provided the (presumably federal) vehicles, but didn't set the schedules or operate it. In such cases, the entity (such as the U of C used to) should contract with the charter company directly.

One could, of course, write to Julie Hamos and suggest such a change in state law. Of course, with the current ethics problems in Springfield, your interest might be scrutinized.

[nickper]

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this one. Do you (or anyone) believe there is any reason the CTA or Pace should be legally allowed to provide this service unless there is no private company able or willing to provide the service (which I can guarantee is NOT the case)?

I hope the "non-compete" charter clause is removed during the next reauthorization of SAFETEA-LU. Under the Obama administration, the Federal Transit Administration actually supports transit.

[ibebobo]

I hope the "non-compete" charter clause is removed during the next reauthorization of SAFETEA-LU. Under the Obama administration, the Federal Transit Administration actually supports transit.

I wouldn't count on nor should it be. The rule protects private companies. If they can't do the work, transit agencies can then do it.

[Busjack]

The rule protects private companies.

I can sort of see the point that federal buses shouldn't do charter work, which is what Krambles said the purpose was. However, the regulation overreaches on that point,* and, as proven above, is unenforceable, since it can be avoided by (1) putting out a public schedule (2) running other than an FTA bus, or (3) coming within the sports safe harbor, as Pace did on the 280s.

At about the height of CTA incompetence in 2005 (backed up in retrospect), I said that the CTA Board should contract with someone like Laidlaw (now First), Coach USA (part of Stagecoach UK) or ATC (now Veolia) to operate the CTA, instead of Kruesi and cronies. They can do the work too; however, none is based in the US. Nevertheless, the feds would have no business mandating that.

And where the FTA ruled, apparently Bobo Bus Lines nor any of the others named above wasn't able to provide the service. But, a bureaucratic hurdle was erected, nonetheless.

Private operators like Bobo can still bid on Pace contractor services. If I have to tell you, there is an RFP out for the 660s.

_____

*By the way, I wonder how much the motor coach industry spent lobbying to get it.

[ibebobo]

I can sort of see the point that federal buses shouldn't do charter work, which is what Krambles said the purpose was. However, the regulation overreaches on that point,* and, as proven above, is unenforceable, since it can be avoided by (1) putting out a public schedule (2) running other than an FTA bus, or (3) coming within the sports safe harbor, as Pace did on the 280s.

Still do not agree with number 2 as the drivers wages, fuel, maintanence are paid with tax $. As I understand the NEW rules, if the agency receives at least $1 of tax $, they can't provide the services unless the exemptions are met.

At about the height of CTA incompetence in 2005 (backed up in retrospect), I said that the CTA Board should contract with someone like Laidlaw (now First), Coach USA (part of Stagecoach UK) or ATC (now Veolia) to operate the CTA, instead of Kruesi and cronies. They can do the work too; however, none is based in the US. Nevertheless, the feds would have no business mandating that.

Very true. But WHY would the CTA want to do that? Wouldn't that jepordize their jobs???

And where the FTA ruled, apparently Bobo Bus Lines nor any of the others named above wasn't able to provide the service. But, a bureaucratic hurdle was erected, nonetheless.

Hmmmm....Bobo Bus Lines. I kinda like that but sounds likes like too much clowing around

But that is exactly how it should happen. In this case, the two operators were NOT WILLING or able to operate the service. Who knows what their reason was.

Private operators like Bobo can still bid on Pace contractor services. If I have to tell you, there is an RFP out for the 660s.

The last Pace route I looked at required brand new coaches and they had a small time frame to cancel the contract. No thanks. I believe we talked about that one.

_____

*By the way, I wonder how much the motor coach industry spent lobbying to get it.

[Busjack]

If you looked at the RFP, Pace is providing the buses for the 660s. As I thought, Bobo Bus Lines isn't keeping up with the opportunities, as MV apparently did with regard to the Lombard-Wheaton contract.

I covered the taxpayer issue in that I said it was a STATE issue. The feds do not provide operating money except for things like CMAQ and JARC. Go lobby the state legislature before they impose ethics reform on itself. However, from your reaction to my suggestion to bid the 660s contract, apparently you don't have the capacity to provide the service.

[ibebobo]

If you looked at the RFP, Pace is providing the buses for the 660s. As I thought, Bobo Bus Lines isn't keeping up with the opportunities, as MV apparently did with regard to the Lombard-Wheaton contract.

I covered the taxpayer issue in that I said it was a STATE issue. The feds do not provide operating money except for things like CMAQ and JARC. Go lobby the state legislature before they impose ethics reform on itself. However, from your reaction to my suggestion to bid the 660s contract, apparently you don't have the capacity to provide the service.

True. Geographically undesireable.

[busbiz]

Hi All.

I am fairly new here. What are your opinions of when Metra hires Pace to move people when there is train work like by the Lake Forest station during the day? There clearly is no fare paid by the riders and the buses are not leased. It is a fixed route from point to point. Who pays Pace?

[andrethebusman]

I'm sure you know where I'm going with this one. Do you (or anyone) believe there is any reason the CTA or Pace should be legally allowed to provide this service unless there is no private company able or willing to provide the service (which I can guarantee is NOT the case)?

When the service first started, it was run by PACE North Shore as routes 425 and 426. One started at Roosevelt/Cicero and ran via Roosevelt to the Ryan, then up Ryan-Kennedy-Edens-Dempster-Waukegan, other started Cermak/Cicero and ran Cermak-Ryan etc. Eventually it was decided it made more sense to start the bus at Irving Park Blue Line and have riders find their own way there. This was when CTA took it over as X98. CTA could provide an artic, while PACE would need two 40-footers, which made it cheaper for CTA to run it.

[ibebobo]

Hi All.

I am fairly new here. What are your opinions of when Metra hires Pace to move people when there is train work like by the Lake Forest station during the day? There clearly is no fare paid by the riders and the buses are not leased. It is a fixed route from point to point. Who pays Pace?

That's a very interesting question! I would like to know the answer to that one too. Any ideas????

[Busjack]

By the way, who pays for all those warming/cooling CTA buses and the fuel to keep them idling?

[BusExpert32]

When the service first started, it was run by PACE North Shore as routes 425 and 426.

#424 and #425

[trainman8119]

That's a very interesting question! I would like to know the answer to that one too. Any ideas????

Metra pays Pace for the service. I have worked on both sides of those occurances.