West Division - Changes & Restructuring

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

At about 23:35 it is mentioned that the east end of the route will be cut back to Grand/Nordica, because riders east of there can use CTA.

Somehow I missed Rocky saying that, but he really didn't go into any other detail about east of Bensenville.

[Busjack]

Finally, the Public Hearing Results page says what happened:

On weekdays, peak hour service will be available approximately every 30 minutes between the Grand/Nordica CTA Terminal and Grand/Wolf. Between Grand/Wolf and both Wolf/North and the Metra MD-West Line Bensenville Station, weekday peak hour service will continue to operate approximately every 30 minutes. The frequency of off-peak weekday and Saturday service will be available approximately every 60 minutes between the Grand/Nordica CTA Terminal and Wolf/North.

On both weekdays and Saturday, service on Route 319 will start slightly earlier and end slightly later than it does now. Service would be available approximately between the hours of 5:15am through 7:30pm on weekdays and 6:45am through 7:15pm on Saturday

Does anyone see anything of substance other than it runs only to/from Grand-Nordica? Does this imply or not imply Belmont trips, and, in any event, shouldn't the tush hour frequency at Grand-Nordica be 15 minutes if it is 30 to each terminal?

Current schedule: 319.pdf

[Pace831]

3 hours ago, Busjack said:

Finally, the Public Hearing Results page says what happened:

On weekdays, peak hour service will be available approximately every 30 minutes between the Grand/Nordica CTA Terminal and Grand/Wolf. Between Grand/Wolf and both Wolf/North and the Metra MD-West Line Bensenville Station, weekday peak hour service will continue to operate approximately every 30 minutes. The frequency of off-peak weekday and Saturday service will be available approximately every 60 minutes between the Grand/Nordica CTA Terminal and Wolf/North.

On both weekdays and Saturday, service on Route 319 will start slightly earlier and end slightly later than it does now. Service would be available approximately between the hours of 5:15am through 7:30pm on weekdays and 6:45am through 7:15pm on Saturday

Does anyone see anything of substance other than it runs only to/from Grand-Nordica? Does this imply or not imply Belmont trips, and, in any event, shouldn't the tush hour frequency at Grand-Nordica be 15 minutes if it is 30 to each terminal?

Current schedule: 319.pdf

My interpretation is:

• The main route still runs from Grand/Nordica to Wolf/North.
• The point where the Bensenville Branch splits from the main route will be moved to Grand/Wolf, which implies no more Bensenville via Belmont trips.
• Whether any main route trips will continue to operate on Belmont (Franklin/Rose timepoint) is unknown.
• There will be 30-minute peak frequency from Grand/Wolf to each of Grand/Nordica, Wolf/North, and Bensenville. Off-peak service is available from Wolf/North to Grand/Nordica, as it is now.
• Presumably, during peak hours, trips will run from Grand/Nordica to Wolf/North, as they do now. Bensenville trips will effectively become a separate route between the MDW station and Grand/Wolf. Bensenville trips will no longer operate to Grand/Nordica, so passengers can transfer to/from 319 main route at Grand/Wolf.

[BusHunter]

Just seems to be the morning trips that are affected with grand/nordica short turns. The pm  looks the same. The time points indicate a franklin rose timepoint and a wolf franklin timepoint so that still remains on franklin. Looks like the belmont part of it might be gone though.

[Pace831]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

Just seems to be the morning trips that are affected with grand/nordica short turns. The pm  looks the same. The time points indicate a franklin rose timepoint and a wolf franklin timepoint so that still remains on franklin. Looks like the belmont part of it might be gone though.

If you're looking at the link Busjack provided, that is the current schedule. The changes aren't supposed to go into effect until December, so we won't know the specifics until the new schedule is posted a few weeks in advance.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Pace831 said:

If you're looking at the link Busjack provided, that is the current schedule. The changes aren't supposed to go into effect until December, so we won't know the specifics until the new schedule is posted a few weeks in advance.

We know that, but it seems that BusHunter was fair in the assumptions he made.

[Pace831]

5 minutes ago, Busjack said:

We know that, but it seems that BusHunter was fair in the assumptions he made.

My interpretation of BH's post was that he had mistaken the current schedule for a proposed one, but I'll give him a chance to respond before I criticize the "assumptions".

[Busjack]

3 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

My interpretation of BH's post was that he had mistaken the current schedule for a proposed one, but I'll give him a chance to respond before I criticize the "assumptions".

No, it was clear that he hadn't, especially with all the references to "no more Belmont."

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

We know that, but it seems that BusHunter was fair in the assumptions he made.

1 out of 3 isn't bad in the assumptions dept. I just clicked on the Busjack link and it showed all morning trips gone to Narragansett. I was suspicious he had gave us the current schedule but it looks new. I guess I can't complain this time. What I don't get is why he said there were no Bensenville trips when it's right there on the schedule. Unfortunately I don't work for Psychic Friends Network. Probably the pay is real good, if I would have had my own commercial like Dionne Warwick.

Whoops!! It does say current schedule wth 0 for 3??? Hopefully he edited it. I'm starting to worry here. In my defense I will say that he talks about changes and then puts up this link. Like they say in the movie "Airport" if you get me up to full throttle and then you reverse it you could damage my engine.

[Pace831]

8 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Whoops!! It does say current schedule wth 0 for 3??? Hopefully he edited it. I'm starting to worry here.

Thanks for clarifying that.

58 minutes ago, Busjack said:

No, it was clear that he hadn't, especially with all the references to "no more Belmont."

I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing anymore. BH only mentioned "no more Belmont" once, but I mentioned it a few times in my post above his.

[BusHunter]

Just now, Pace831 said:

Thanks for clarifying that.

I'm not even sure we're talking about the same thing anymore. BH only mentioned "no more Belmont" once, but I mentioned it a few times in my post above his.

And this is where I'm swayed to make that statement. Probably east belmont is cut though, the cumberland part. It's the weakest link as I'm familiar with #319. Belmont west of Rose/25th does good. I don't think they would cut it. The gist of what you guys mentioned suggests there will be a Wolf/Grand terminal. So no Walmart trips? I thought initially you guys state that Bensenville trips would be routed through Grand/Wolf. That might be a mistake if Pace were to do that. Franklin does good for ridership, I thought even better east of Wolf.

[Pace831]

29 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

And this is where I'm swayed to make that statement. Probably east belmont is cut though, the cumberland part. It's the weakest link as I'm familiar with #319. Belmont west of Rose/25th does good. I don't think they would cut it. The gist of what you guys mentioned suggests there will be a Wolf/Grand terminal. So no Walmart trips? I thought initially you guys state that Bensenville trips would be routed through Grand/Wolf. That might be a mistake if Pace were to do that. Franklin does good for ridership, I thought even better east of Wolf.

The public hearing results stated that each of the following would have 30 minute frequencies during peak hours:

• Grand/Wolf to Grand/Nordica
• Grand/Wolf to Wolf/North
• Grand/Wolf to Bensenville

Busjack noted that the first of those three segments would have 15 minute frequencies if the current basic structure were kept. Provided that Pace didn't make a mistake, I concluded that the main route will always run from Grand/Nordica to Wolf/North. Bensenville passengers must transfer to/from the main route at Grand/Wolf. So I agree that Belmont/Cumberland trips are probably being cut. Pace hasn't indicated whether Franklin/Rose main route trips will be kept, but if ridership there is as good as you say, they probably will be. The difference is that the Bensenville trips will no longer serve that area.

If this turns out to be true, it makes a stronger case for my earlier point that Bensenville trips should have their own route number, since what little duplication the two branches had before is now completely gone. Pace hasn't indicated whether they will do so, but I bet they will. By shortening those trips to Grand/Wolf, they'll probably only need one bus for the "Bensenville shuttle".

[Busjack]

7 hours ago, Pace831 said:

I concluded that the main route will always run from Grand/Nordica to Wolf/North. Bensenville passengers must transfer to/from the main route at Grand/Wolf.

 

7 hours ago, Pace831 said:

If this turns out to be true, it makes a stronger case for my earlier point that Bensenville trips should have their own route number, since what little duplication the two branches had before is now completely gone.

That's where the ambiguity was. I figured they made a mistake on the frequency at Nordica. Otherwise, if a transfer were necessary at Grand-Wolf, they would have given the Bensenville Local a new route number, as you said in the last paragraph  Heck, they gave new numbers to 314 and 316, even though they appear to be interlined most times with their old routes.

Getting back to the current schedule, PM trips leave Harlem-Grand about every 15 minutes,and I think any intent to cut that would have been better expressed. What's strange in the current schedule is that a via Belmont bus arrives 3 minutes after a via Grand bus. Maybe the interval should be more spread out.

7 hours ago, Pace831 said:

Pace hasn't indicated whether Franklin/Rose main route trips will be kept,

That is correct.

 

[Pace831]

Now that I think about it more, I'd guess that Pace's original plan was to have buses leave Grand/Nordica every 30 minutes, alternating destinations to provide 60 minute frequencies on each branch. It would have been a simple, sensible route structure, but Bensenville opposed the original plan which we know involved a service cut on their branch. That leads to my prediction that Pace devised the transfer at Grand/Wolf scheme, which only requires one additional bus than the original plan, to serve Bensenville every 30 minutes. I thought of a few other possibilities:

• Bensenville trips will run all the way to Grand/Nordica, but will not be coordinated with the main route schedule. That seems to be the case with the current schedule, but coordination becomes more important when the routing is the same east of Grand/Wolf. (This is plausible.)
• There will be trips from Wolf/North to Bensenville (unlikely, but theoretically possible if the public hearing results are to be believed).

Questions:

1. Where are most Bensenville riders going to/from? Are they mostly workers at the industries there who live in Chicago? Would ridership decrease if they had to transfer at Grand/Wolf?
2. Would the route from Grand/Nordica to Grand/Wolf be busy enough to support 15 minute frequency during peak hours?

[Busjack]

41 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

There will be trips from Wolf/North to Bensenville (unlikely, but theoretically possible if the public hearing results are to be believed).

Considering the only analogy that comes to mind 213, which used to be 213 Green Bay-Highland Park and 214 Green Bay-Northbrook Court, there is now 213 Davis CTA with alternate trips to Highland Park and Northbrook Court. In the rush hour, 15 minute service at Davis, but 30 minute service at Highland Park or Northbrook Court.

Since it seems pretty clear that Bensenville's complaint was that it was being cut from every half hour to an hour, and the Board video indicates that Bensenville service will not be changed in the near future, it won't be cut this December, and will be every 30 minutes.

41 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

There will be trips from Wolf/North to Bensenville (unlikely, but theoretically possible if the public hearing results are to be believed).

Extremely unlikely, given the 213 example and the phraseology of the Hearing Results page.

 

41 minutes ago, Pace831 said:

I'd guess that Pace's original plan was to have buses leave Grand/Nordica every 30 minutes, alternating destinations to provide 60 minute frequencies on each branch.

That's the probable origin of  Pace having a brain phart.

Quote

Where are most Bensenville riders going to/from?

That's also unanswered at the moment. The original justification for the restructuring was to serve new destinations, but Bensenville said there were too many changes in its area to do anything now.

[BusHunter]

9 hours ago, Busjack said:

Considering the only analogy that comes to mind 213, which used to be 213 Green Bay-Highland Park and 214 Green Bay-Northbrook Court, there is now 213 Davis CTA with alternate trips to Highland Park and Northbrook Court. In the rush hour, 15 minute service at Davis, but 30 minute service at Highland Park or Northbrook Court.

Since it seems pretty clear that Bensenville's complaint was that it was being cut from every half hour to an hour, and the Board video indicates that Bensenville service will not be changed in the near future, it won't be cut this December, and will be every 30 minutes.

Extremely unlikely, given the 213 example and the phraseology of the Hearing Results page.

 

That's the probable origin of  Pace having a brain phart.

That's also unanswered at the moment. The original justification for the restructuring was to serve new destinations, but Bensenville said there were too many changes in its area to do anything now.

Hmm this would make one wonder why they don't get off at Elmwood PK. (on the Metra) i have a hard time believing this bensenville route will be a separate route. If they did that they might as well can the service because no one will want to transfer 2 times. Metra, bus 1 and bus 2.

[jajuan]

On 8/24/2016 at 10:56 PM, BusHunter said:

Hmm this would make one wonder why they don't get off at Elmwood PK. (on the Metra) i have a hard time believing this bensenville route will be a separate route. If they did that they might as well can the service because no one will want to transfer 2 times. Metra, bus 1 and bus 2.

Now you're really looking for Bensenville to put up a stink after as mentioned they already put up a stink about Pace having wanted to cut bus service down from every 30 mins to once every hour. 

[Busjack]

On 8/24/2016 at 10:56 PM, BusHunter said:

Hmm this would make one wonder why they don't get off at Elmwood PK. (on the Metra) i have a hard time believing this bensenville route will be a separate route. If they did that they might as well can the service because no one will want to transfer 2 times. Metra, bus 1 and bus 2.

 

9 hours ago, jajuan said:

Now you're really looking for Bensenville to put up a stink after as mentioned they already put up a stink about Pace having wanted to cut bus service down from every 30 mins to once every hour. 

This seems another argument over nothing, in that the Elmwood Park Metra station is 2 or 3 blocks from Grand-Nordica, and the only significance of Grand-Nordica is that it is a bus turnaround.

What I interpret BusHunter's question is that how many Bensenville branch of 319 riders are going to Chicago, but are far enough east that they aren't using the Bensenville Metra station, but are using other means, such as the Elmwood Park Metra station.

Since Franklin Ave./Green St. is essentially railroad on one side and industrial otherwise, the question basically comes down to what industrial areas are served.

If I've misinterpreted the question, have back at it.

[BusHunter]

For that matter river grove and franklin park metra can be used. The question i have is who is really riding this via metra? It seems to me it serves industry more than anything.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, BusHunter said:

For that matter river grove and franklin park metra can be used. The question i have is who is really riding this via metra? It seems to me it serves industry more than anything.

Your last sentence seems to be it. However, again, we don't know because the only representation made at the Board Meeting was "don't mess with Bensenville because it will change in 6 months." Nothing like, such as in Niles, that certain trips had to serve an assisted living residence in the cemetery district, for instance.

If Pace did any studies about how many transfer to Metra, or how many transfer to 65, 90, or 303, 307, 330, or 331,or how many are going from Franklin Park to Bensenville, I haven't seen it.

[Busjack]

Crain's article tangentially related to this, in that the head of DuPage County's economic development unit is talking about things like public transit, but appears like more in the vein of an upcoming Metra project to  summon an autonomous car to make the last mile trip. Also mentions that after the O'Hare project is done, "areas immediately to the west will be prime for development," which I suppose is related to the statements that Bensenville will not be the same in 6 months.

[pudgym29]

Ummm, you do know that in this thread, I announced I rode #319 from Belmont | Cumberland to the Hopscotch Bar[/url] in Franklin Park. So somebody is getting served by this routing. I think this alternate routing should be the primary routing, especially into Franklin Park, whose train station has service seven days a week.

Edited September 6, 2016 by pudgym29
Uncompleted BBCode hashtag amended. Should be possible to edit out bbcode errors in revision. 8=[

[Busjack]

14 hours ago, pudgym29 said:

Ummm, you do know that in this thread, I announced I rode #319 from Belmont | Cumberland to the Hopscotch Bar[/url] in Franklin Park. So somebody is getting served by this routing. I think this alternate routing should be the primary routing, especially into Franklin Park, whose train station has service seven days a week.

Basically, is there anywhere where you go that isn't a bar and is that what should be driving transit planning? I assume that the bar that used to be at Shermer and Willow is now a Dunkin Donuts because you didn't find the 422 bus. or the last one ran by there at 10:15.

[Busjack]

Somehow the topic got split between here and there, but anyway:

The August 2016 Board Meeting Minutes have a little more meat:

SBD #16-63 – Ordinance authorizing the changes to Route 319. Pace proposes to eliminate
service duplication with Chicago Transit Authority (CTA) service by no longer operating Route
319 east of the Grand/Nordica CTA Terminal and discontinue unproductive route segments and
trips that operate on Cumberland/Thatcher Avenues, Belmont Avenue, Edgington Street, 25th
Avenue, Mannheim Road, Franklin Avenue between Edgington Street and Wolf Road, and on
Franklin Avenue between 25th Avenue and Belmont Avenue.

Now,  can anybody connect these dots?

[Busjack]

Finally got the pacebus.com site to work. Areas I marked in red are eliminated. This seems consistent with straight Grand to Wolf, and then splitting into Wolf-North and Bensenville branches.