PACE Orion hybrid bus 2831

[RJL6000]

2826 was supposedly one of 4 ElDorados purchased in a special order but not for any given reason. See, e.g. here and here.

Actually, those last four ElDorados (2826-2829) are 32-footers, a tad longer than the 30-foot length of most of the other EZ Rider II Max buses delivered to Pace.

They are all currently assigned to Pace Fox Valley Division.

[Busjack]

Actually, those last four ElDorados (2826-2829) are 32-footers, a tad longer than the 30-foot length of most of the EZ Rider II Max buses delivered to Pace.

They are all currently assigned to Pace Fox Valley Division.

As this keeps jumping around Anyway...

Just a bigger snout like the EZ Rider BRT, or actually more passenger room?

[RJL6000]

As this keeps jumping around Anyway...

Just a bigger snout like the EZ Rider BRT, or actually more passenger room?

The extra two feet allows for two additional longtitudal (sideways-facing) seats (for a theoretical seated capacity of 29 instead of 27, plus the driver).

[Busjack]

UPDATE: 2828 is on the 530 this morning via Webwatch, another Fox Valley route. Guess we know where 2826-2829 are now.

Was gone from the screen, but now is back

Update: Another one, for a brief moment.

[rotjohns]

2826 was supposedly one of 4 ElDorados purchased in a special order but not for any given reason. See, e.g. here and here.

Highland Park was supposed to get the two hybrids, which now are 2830-2831.

There certainly is no reason for Highland Park to get more ElDorados.

Physical or WebWatch sighting?

Physical sighting. And now that it's mentioned, it did look like that bus was a tad bit longer than the others. It's very different in the back too. I wish I had gotten a pic to show. If I see one on the COD route, I'll be sure to take it.

[Busjack]

Based on twy's surmise about a year ago, here is your actual evidence of when the hybrids will start service in Highland Park, i.e. on or after April 9. I mentioned the "bridge clearance issue" above.

[twyztdmynd]

Trib article - Press release on new Hybrids

http://triblocal.com/highland-park-highwood/2012/04/10/highland-park-rolls-out-new-hybrid-buses/

[Busjack]

Trib article - Press release on new Hybrids

http://triblocal.com...w-hybrid-buses/

At least they said Wednesday, which is today. I'll probably wait for Webwatch before trying to track one down, although, at the moment 472 is blank even though there should be a bus approaching downtown from HPHS.

[mel bernero]

I went out to Highland Park on Thursday 4/12/2012 and saw both buses operating. One was pulling into the garage about 2:30 pm while the other one came out for a number of afternoon rush trips.

[Busjack]

I went out to Highland Park on Thursday 4/12/2012 and saw both buses operating. One was pulling into the garage about 2:30 pm while the other one came out for a number of afternoon rush trips.

Must be the "ghost buses" on Webwatch.

Or maybe more correct to say, not on Webwatch.

[Busjack]

After a "long" absence, it shows up on WebWatch:

[Busjack]

To show that I am good for my word, just came back from scoping this out. It is somewhat difficult to get a full view of the bus, since 472 only makes a quick stop at the Metra station instead of having a 10 minute layover as 471 does.

Anyway:

• I didn't see any tags indicating whether it was a BAE system or Allison. In that it sounded like the motor was accelerating when taking off at the traffic signal, I would guess Allison (the motor sure didn't sound like a steady state hum just charging the batteries as would be the case in the BAE series system). In that there wasn't a "silent" take off either way, maybe Pace better be closely monitoring what the fuel economy is.
• The Pace press release says it seats 29 passengers (compared to 27 in a standard ElDo). Again, the bus was not stopped long enough to let me count seats, but it looked like it had narrower and flatter seats, sort of similar to what is in the later bunch of CTA buses, as opposed to the seats contoured for butts.
• It did have flush windows, but apparently not of the kind on RTSs and Flxibles, in that it looked like the windows had an interior frame with rounded corners, and definitely the side emergency pulls rather than the lift at the bottom of the window.
• The back had a perforated grill, allowing the Pace decals to be applied, rather than the gaping maw usually on the back of an Orion VII.
• While definitely the "dark teal" green shown in the picture, one really couldn't tell from a distance (i.e. seeing the bus on St. John's Ave. while standing on First Street) that the color wasn't any different from the blue buses. But it is very cloudy today.

[twyztdmynd]

Saw 471 using it yesterday at Deerfield and Ridge. Didn't see any on 472. Around 5:00

[MVTArider]

• I didn't see any tags indicating whether it was a BAE system or Allison. In that it sounded like the motor was accelerating when taking off at the traffic signal, I would guess Allison (the motor sure didn't sound like a steady state hum just charging the batteries as would be the case in the BAE series system). In that there wasn't a "silent" take off either way, maybe Pace better be closely monitoring what the fuel economy is.

Not sure how close you were standing, but our Gillig hybrids with Allison E^P 40 do make a bit of noise when departing from a stop on the Mall, even though they're well under the 30 mph threshold for switching to the ISB for drive power. I'm not exactly sure how much of the noise is the engine and how much is the hybrid system however. There could be a touch of noise coming from the Meritors as well since the engine is so quiet.

Edit: Also with a seated passenger capacity of 29 I am curious to know if these have seats on top of the front wheels similar to the 29' Gillig Low Floors around here with a 30 seat capacity. (No rear doors) (and for that matter the ElDos)

Edit 2: Looking at Mel's photo on full zoom you are correct, these use the USSC Aries 4MA model seat versus the American Seating InSight or Vision seats that I believe the ElDos use.

[daimlerbuses]

I didn't see any tags indicating whether it was a BAE system or Allison. In that it sounded like the motor was accelerating when taking off at the traffic signal, I would guess Allison (the motor sure didn't sound like a steady state hum just charging the batteries as would be the case in the BAE series system). In that there wasn't a "silent" take off either way, maybe Pace better be closely monitoring what the fuel economy is.

The PACE units have the BAE HybriDrive. While the operation of the system has not changed, it should be noted that BAE hybrids after 2010 use a T-drive layout (as compared to what was similar to a V drive in previous years) which could account for the engine/motor noise you are hearing.

[*]The back had a perforated grill, allowing the Pace decals to be applied, rather than the gaping maw usually on the back of an Orion VII.[*]While definitely the "dark teal" green shown in the picture, one really couldn't tell from a distance (i.e. seeing the bus on St. John's Ave. while standing on First Street) that the color wasn't any different from the blue buses. But it is very cloudy today.

I'm lost here. The rear on the PACE units appears to be the same as any other VII from 2007 onwards (the shape of the vent was changed for 2010).

Edit: Also with a seated passenger capacity of 29 I am curious to know if these have seats on top of the front wheels similar to the 29' Gillig Low Floors around here with a 30 seat capacity. (No rear doors) (and for that matter the ElDos)

There are no seats over the front wheels. Such feature is not an option on the Orion VII.

[Busjack]

Not sure how close you were standing, but our Gillig hybrids with Allison E^P 40 do make a bit of noise when departing from a stop on the Mall, even though they're well under the 30 mph threshold for switching to the ISB for drive power.

I was outside the bus. The traffic signal was a 1/2 block away, but I was also next to the bus when it left the driveway of the Metra Parking Lot/Pace bus lane. I made more of an effort to listen the second time.

Anyway, if you want to play Google Maps, here is one of the area around the Metra station; at about the middle of the picture, you can see the concrete driveway where it dumps into First Street, where I was standing, and the position of Laurel Ave. (the cross street at the top) where the traffic light is and where the bus makes a left turn.

Now, I have given out too much and some employee of Highland Park Public Works will know that I was spying. :D

[Busjack]

The PACE units have the BAE HybriDrive. While the operation of the system has not changed, it should be noted that BAE hybrids after 2010 use a T-drive layout (as compared to what was similar to a V drive in previous years) which could account for the engine/motor noise you are hearing.

Maybe what the confusion is is that the BAE Hybridrive page now indicates both series and parallel. However, clicking through indicates that the parallel is only for trucks, and the bus is illustrated with series and series with bus.

The description of parts for the series system indicates that it purely uses electric traction motors, so V or T drive would be irrelevant. It also indicates that the series system has separate motors and generators.

Also, Daimler Bus news release says that the Allison system "will expand Orion's hybrid offerings to now include a parallel system. Orion already offers a series hybrid system." [i had to use Google to find it.]

Thus, at least on the Web, there is no indication of what you describe in an Orion BAE bus.

I'm lost here. The rear on the PACE units appears to be the same as any other VII from 2007 onwards (the shape of the vent was changed for 2010).

I am comparing the Pace bus with these pictures of the Orion VII demonstrator, TTC, and NYC, where, in each case, there is only a screen over the back vent and you clearly can see the equipment behind it (sort of the same as any Orion starting in 1990). The NYC one is a Next Gen, and may have the "different shape" as there doesn't appear to be the separate vent for the tailpipe. However, outside 2831, you can't see into the compartment, and I only noted the perforations looking real close at the back.

In any event, if your screenname indicates that you are affiliated with Daimler, you could certainly give us links to web pages supporting your assertions, since they seem totally contrary to the public sources.

[daimlerbuses]

Maybe what the confusion is is that the BAE Hybridrive page now indicates both series and parallel. However, clicking through indicates that the parallel is only for trucks, and the bus is illustrated with series and series with bus.

The description of parts for the series system indicates that it purely uses electric traction motors, so V or T drive would be irrelevant. It also indicates that the series system has separate motors and generators.

Also, Daimler Bus news release says that the Allison system "will expand Orion's hybrid offerings to now include a parallel system. Orion already offers a series hybrid system." [i had to use Google to find it.]

Thus, at least on the Web, there is no indication of what you describe in an Orion BAE bus.

I am comparing the Pace bus with these pictures of the Orion VII demonstrator, TTC, and NYC, where, in each case, there is only a screen over the back vent and you clearly can see the equipment behind it (sort of the same as any Orion starting in 1990). The NYC one is a Next Gen, and may have the "different shape" as there doesn't appear to be the separate vent for the tailpipe. However, outside 2831, you can't see into the compartment, and I only noted the perforations looking real close at the back.

In any event, if your screenname indicates that you are affiliated with Daimler, you could certainly give us links to web pages supporting your assertions, since they seem totally contrary to the public sources.

I understand your point about V and T drives, however my point was related to the difference between BAE HybriDriveinstallation in the prior 2010 model VIIs (V drive) and the 2010 to present VIIs (T drive) which could affect what you hear from the engine compartment due to different component placement.

I am certain that the PACE buses have the BAE HybriDrive. I have several contacts at Daimler, where I got my info from. If you don't want to believe me that is your choice and I'll let you find out for yourself.

[MVTArider]

There are no seats over the front wheels. Such feature is not an option on the Orion VII.

I was wondering how they managed to squeeze 29 seats in if that was the case, until I checked the specs and remembered that a "30 foot" Orion VII is actually 33' 2.23" in length, while a 29 foot Gillig Low Floor is 30' in length.

Also since you say you have many contacts with Daimler, would you tell them to please just either update the website already, or pick a date when it will actually be done, instead of putting it off each month. It makes it look like a group of procrastinating students is overseeing the project :lol:

[Busjack]

I was wondering how they managed to squeeze 29 seats in if that was the case, until I checked the specs and remembered that a "30 foot" Orion VII is actually 33' 2.23" in length, while a 29 foot Gillig Low Floor is 30' in length.

Also since you say you have many contacts with Daimler, would you tell them to please just either update the website already, or pick a date when it will actually be done, instead of putting it off each month. It makes it look like a group of procrastinating students is overseeing the project

Both good points. As rjl pointed out, Eldo 2826-2829 had 29 seats but that was because they were 32'. If you want the Eldorado specifications, they are here.

And I put your second comment in red, because I am tired of other people posting things as a matter of fact, and then saying "it's gossip, take it for what it is worth".

...

I am certain that the PACE buses have the BAE HybriDrive. I have several contacts at Daimler, where I got my info from. If you don't want to believe me that is your choice and I'll let you find out for yourself.

Either it is verifiable fact or it isn't. Just because someone says they know some leaker at Daimler doesn't mean that they know anything, especially given the contradictions and backtracking (however the electric motors are mounted, they aren't going to sound like a diesel engine; I've ridden electric trolley buses and trains).

Anyway, someone has a lot of nerve if he is using the screenname "damilerbuses" and doesn't represent them. That's trademark infringement. I don't sign on as "Phil Pagano, Executive Director of Metra from the grave."

[MVTArider]

Either it is verifiable fact or it isn't.

Well they are indeed BAE Systems. Here's a credible source: Metro Magazine: Chicago’s Pace unveils 2 hybrid buses. The way it's written it sounds like a parallel drive system, since it mentions "a BAE Systems diesel-electric hybrid drive system which, similar to hybrid automobiles on the market, switches between an electric motor and a diesel engine to conserve fuel and reduce exhaust emissions." Although as was mentioned previously, it being parallel is not necessarily the case.

[Busjack]

Well they are indeed BAE Systems. Here's a credible source: Metro Magazine: Chicago's Pace unveils 2 hybrid buses. The way it's written it sounds like a parallel drive system, since it mentions "a BAE Systems diesel-electric hybrid drive system which, similar to hybrid automobiles on the market, switches between an electric motor and a diesel engine to conserve fuel and reduce exhaust emissions." Although as was mentioned previously, it being parallel is not necessarily the case.

I can verify that the picture was taken in front of Pace headquarters.

At least the description sounds parallel, in that in a series, you can switch the diesel engine off, but if you want to go somewhere, you can't switch from the electric.

Since Highland Park isn't going to let me into the back compartment, the best I can do is go to the BAE Hybridrive site. On the HybriDrive® Hybrid Diesel Truck Systems page, after you click "Click to view our interactive presentation" and then click "Interactive for Truck Applications," the Flash indicates that "the integrated electronic unit provides power to the drivetrain until the engine is at its most efficient point." "Once a steady speed is reached, the engine can be most efficient, the integrated electronic unit signals the vehicle's engine to completely power the vehicle." Also, the electric motor, by itself, only provides stop start capability.

So,

• That's why it sounds like a standard transit bus. Other than when a standard transit bus is idling (and 2630 in front of it was sure put putting) the diesel engine works like that on a standard transit bus, except it gets some electric assist.
• Unlike the Allison system you described, there isn't any "all electric" startup.
• From what BAE says, Orion must have ordered a "scalable" down version of its "vocational truck system."
• You were right; Daimler Buses has to update its site if it is offering something not reflected there. Probably BAE, too.

[MVTArider]

Just a bit OT but:

Well, I guess this would be the reason behind Orion not updating their website:

Daimler Closing Mississauga Bus Plant

So it appears there are now only 5 major Buy America compliant transit bus manufacturers*. Nova, New Flyer, Gillig, ElDo, NABI. (Not including small players like Proterra)

*EDIT: as in manufacturers that will take new orders.

Edited April 25, 2012 by MVTArider

[qwantae]

Just a bit OT but:

Well, I guess this would be the reason behind Orion not updating their website:

Daimler Closing Mississauga Bus Plant

So it appears there are now only 5 major Buy America compliant transit bus manufacturers*. Nova, New Flyer, Gillig, ElDo, NABI. (Not including small players like Proterra)

*EDIT: as in manufacturers that will take new orders.

Don't forget Millennium (If the market gets strong)

[Busjack]

I was by the Highland Park Metra and both 2830 (471) and 2831 (472) were running.

2830 was idling in the bus lane for 10 minutes (while the driver was engaged in various outside the bus activities), which sure demonstrates that it doesn't have start stop. Also, it didn't sound any different than the 2600 (213) that pulled up and idled 8 minutes later.

It sure can't be "green" to be stopped that long with the engine on.

I don't have Pace's fuel consumption comparisons, and am not a self proclaimed all knowing consultant, but it sure sounds to me like the taxpayers of Illinois got taken.