westing Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 So I had an interesting Friday afternoon. I was waiting for an outbound train yesterday at Merchandise Mart, a Purple had just passed through and was too packed to board. Tracker said the next train was a Brown Line so when I saw a train with the "Express" markers, (as some of the cars were former Red Line 2600s) I had my suspicions something was up. Then the train waited before entering the station for longer than usual. When it stopped and the doors opened all hell broke loose. People were yelling and confused, there was talk that it was a Green Line. Eventually I learned from the people on the train it was supposed to be a Green Line but it apparently took the wrong turn. Oops The operator was not helping matters by staying quiet the whole time. Then again he was getting his head bitten off by several irate passengers yelling at him at the head of the train. A very angry young woman walked off saying, "Once again the Green Line gets the shaft". I think CTA announcements were being made at the station, not that you could hear them! Eventually a manager speed walked to the front. The operator at this point was trying to talk into the PA but nothing was coming out. He must have been new or very flustered because the manager flipped a switch and volia announcements. The train was offloaded and sent north, I don't know where they would turn it around. I found the whole situation interesting to experience as a bystander. Has anyone else heard this happening? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagopcclcar Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 The train could be turned from north to south by Clark Tower at any of the crossovers on the northside main in the Clark Corridor north of Armitage. Tower 18 at Lake /Wells could then put the train back into service SB or send it for a "spin" around the Loop. D. H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtrak41 Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 My experience as a tourist last summer was on the Brownage, which I planned to take for fun. When it hit Tower 18, it made a left onto Lake, then the announcement "sorry for the inconvenience, being rerouted, etc, etc". Most people stormed off at the next stop angry and most were unaware there was such a thing as the Brownage eventhough the auto announcements all the way in said it is a Brown Line train to Downtown AND MIDWAY. I suppose they could have simply transferred to a Purple or Pink to get back to Wells, but walked the rest of the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nflyer22 Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 This is my thought after my observations from the past several days: I've seen 2600s being shuffled all over the place, but the shuffle includes 2 separate "groups" of 2600s. What I mean by that is that back couple years ago or so when the CTA redid the roller curtain destinations, 1 group of destinations would have the Purple Line destinations (Linden, Loop, Howard) while the other group would have the Green Line destinations (Harlem, Ashland/63, Cottage Grove) in the same placement as the other set. No roller curtain set has both Purple and Green destinations (at least I think), but even if they did they would not match up when coupled with other trains. Anyways my observations included 2600s on the Green Line that showed the Purple Line destinations and vice-versa for the Purple. As for why the train you saw was a Green but made a wrong turn, I don't know how to explain that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Hmmm and the only less than normal thing I experienced on the EL Friday was Friday morning when I rode a Purple Line Express consisting of four previously Red Line assigned 4600s with two 2400s at the end from the Loop to Davis with it's destination sign stuck on 'Express' the whole ride, causing the operator to announce all the way that the train was Purple Line to Linden making normal Purple Line stops. I boarded at State/Lake and it did the sit and wait thing this thread's initiator mentioned witnessing with the out of place Green line train before pulling up to the platform. I'm guessing the operator was trying to get the destination sign to switch from 'Express' to 'Linden' but had no success obviously. Along the way I did see a six car Red Line train consisting entirely of 2400s going SB approaching the Belmont stop. The train's 'Express' sign did get some use though at the end of my ride when it had to go express from South Blvd. to Davis because it was a delayed train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amtrak41 Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 How many read-outs can a roll sign have ? Is the low limit the reason there can't be an all-purpose, mylar roler ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 How many read-outs can a roll sign have ? Is the low limit the reason there can't be an all-purpose, mylar roler ? 15 per sign. People noted here a while back that the readings were changed, so that all rolls (except maybe Yellow) had a couple of Red Line ones on it. I'm sure you can search this forum to find that thread. Even if the signs were stuck on express, one would think that Mr. CTA would have been properly programmed. Any observations on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 15 per sign. People noted here a while back that the readings were changed, so that all rolls (except maybe Yellow) had a couple of Red Line ones on it. I'm sure you can search this forum to find that thread. Even if the signs were stuck on express, one would think that Mr. CTA would have been properly programmed. Any observations on that? Mr CTA was working just fine. It was just the fact of everyone on the platforms looking confused despite the announcement system saying quite clearly the train was a Purple Express at each stop the train made that had the operator going the extra mile of announcing it himself with the added detail he was making regular Purple Line Express stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artthouwill Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Mr CTA was working just fine. It was just the fact of everyone on the platforms looking confused despite the announcement system saying quite clearly the train was a Purple Express at each stop the train made that had the operator going the extra mile of announcing it himself with the added detail he was making regular Purple Line Express stops. One morning I was on a Green Line train on the way to work. Ahead of my train in the Loop was an Orange Line train, which seemingly had to wait for the right line up at Tower 12 and at the 17th street Tower. That train operator even had to call Control to get the right signal to proceed past the 17th st interlocking only to have to stop where the Orange Line tracks either keep straight or turn to meet the Red Line tracks at Cermak Chinatown. From what my CTA operator friends have told me, either Control or the Tower purposely line up the wrong signals with new operators to see if the are paying attention. In the case of the subject of this thread, this particular operator failed to properly read his signals, which is why his Green Line train made a wrong turn. My operator friends told me when that happens, the operator has to be retrained (no pun intended). The Orange Line operator I referred to at the beginning of my post knew what her lineup was and didn't move her train until she got it, even though she was given the wrong one initially every time, or at least while my train was behind hers. Not reading signals properly can at best send trains the wrong way and worst case scenario can cause a derailment much like the one at 59th a few years back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 ...From what my CTA operator friends have told me, either Control or the Tower purposely line up the wrong signals with new operators to see if the are paying attention. .... Not reading signals properly can at best send trains the wrong way and worst case scenario can cause a derailment much like the one at 59th a few years back. If this is true, it would show a contempt for the passengers, and passengers' safety somewhat unprecedented in CTA history. Especially given that Tower 18, where the incident at the top of the page supposedly happened, was just replaced. With the slow zones and stuff, the last thing CTA needs is to make the ride even slower and more unsafe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 If this is true, it would show a contempt for the passengers, and passengers' safety somewhat unprecedented in CTA history. Especially given that Tower 18, where the incident at the top of the page supposedly happened, was just replaced. With the slow zones and stuff, the last thing CTA needs is to make the ride even slower and more unsafe. I second that and those involved would deserve worse than to be fired. They'd deserve prison time to the fullest extent of the law for such dangerous and wreckless behavior in endangering passengers lives in such a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagopcclcar Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Not reading signals properly can at best send trains the wrong way and worst case scenario can cause a derailment much like the one at 59th a few years back. If this is true, it would show a contempt for the passengers, and passengers' safety somewhat unprecedented in CTA history. Especially given that Tower 18, where the incident at the top of the page supposedly happened, was just replaced. With the slow zones and stuff, the last thing CTA needs is to make the ride even slower and more unsafe. I second that and those involved would deserve worse than to be fired. They'd deserve prison time to the fullest extent of the law for such dangerous and wreckless behavior in endangering passengers lives in such a way. Unless you people have authoritative information your posts may be maligning CTA and CTA employees without factual substantiation. The first poster is indeed incorrect about the two 59th St. derailments. They were much more complicated. The second and third posters seem to be piling-on without substantial information. David H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Unless you people have authoritative information your posts may be maligning CTA and CTA employees without factual substantiation. The first poster is indeed incorrect about the two 59th St. derailments. They were much more complicated. The second and third posters seem to be piling-on without substantial information. David H. I said "if this is true." So, it appears that someone else is actually piling, or at least not reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
See Tea Eh Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 If the signal system is functioning properly, taking the wrong lineup should not result in a derailment. If the signal displays any kind of a proceed indication, it is telling the operator that the track ahead is clear. It may not be the route the operator wants to go, but the route that is lined up should be safe. As for testing operators, it is not contempt for anybody. It is standard throughout the railroad industry. It's how you make sure your crews are alert and following the rules by putting them in a safe, controlled situation to make sure they know what to do. That way you can catch unsafe behavior before it occurs in an incident that can lead to danger. Now, that said, I don't specifically know if/how CTA does these kinds of tests. Further, it certainly wouldn't make sense to do so during rush hour when you've got full trains on close headways. This seems like a good ol fashioned misroute that would probably have the train operator and the tower operator taken out of service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagopcclcar Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 "If this is true" is awfully small compared to the gist of your comment. So evidently all three of us are guilty of overloking your attempt at justifying. Doesn't mean that I want to share the same jail cell with them though. David H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nflyer22 Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 This happened many years ago when I was a young bus and rail fan: I was in the first car of an Orange Line train headed toward Midway, and when it left Roosevelt, it proceeded normally southbound until it reached 17th Street junction, where it made a left switch onto the Green Line tracks. The operator immediately noticed the error; he stopped the train, went to the other end, moved the train out of the interlocking, came back, and called control for the right signal and proceeded on the right way. Because this happened on a weekend, not many people were on the train from what I remember, and no one appeared to have been upset due to the delay. As for the control crew behind the colorful switches, I sure do hope these incidents are not intentional, for the last thing customers including myself want to hear is an unnecessary delay caused by workers who are "playing" at the controls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artthouwill Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Unless you people have authoritative information your posts may be maligning CTA and CTA employees without factual substantiation. The first poster is indeed incorrect about the two 59th St. derailments. They were much more complicated. The second and third posters seem to be piling-on without substantial information. David H. Not piling on. First I only mentioned ONE of the derailments which that operator did not have the correct lineup. He tried to override the lineup manually, which is permissable, but obviously he didn't follow procedure that led to his derailment and dismissal. My point was that noy paying attention to signals could lead to a derailment. Also I don't know for a fact that Tower 18 purposely gave the Green Line operator the.wrong signal, but either way, it was on the operator to recognize the signal and respond accordingly. I would hope that CTA wouldn't do that to a new operator in the middle of rush hour, but based on my CTA friends accounts in the past AND my recent observation noted at the top of.my post tells me that wrong lineups for newbies is a practice at.CTA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 "If this is true" is awfully small ... David H. Whatever. I also doubted that the buses on Randolph would stay there, or that the Red Line would be shut down. So, I guess I am batting 50%. If you couldn't tell from my tone that I was doubting art... On the other hand, I suppose that someone who will identify oneself as a CTA switchman will come here and debunk it all. Have one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicagopcclcar Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Whatever. I also doubted that the buses on Randolph would stay there, or that the Red Line would be shut down. So, I guess I am batting 50%. If you couldn't tell from my tone that I was doubting art... On the other hand, I suppose that someone who will identify oneself as a CTA switchman will come here and debunk it all. Have one? In the older days, a new qualifier for motor would get a "call-on" aspect somewhere on his first trip. I'm unable to determine if that is still the case. A "call-on" means something is wrong with the interlocking plant and a correct signal/lineup can't be given. The operator sees a red over red over yellow. It means stop! Inspect the routing and tracks ahead. If clear, operate track trip manual release. Proceed, operate at restricted speed and "on sight." Of course, the operator must first call control and notify control of the conditions. Note that during this test, no erroneous route would be set up. Although I might give a personal account of what might happen, my posting is in no way official, because...... I-was-not-there!!! Some folk who post here might be accurate observers, but others might not be. I don't know any of you. Maybe we should get together sometime, LOL. David H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted July 1, 2012 Report Share Posted July 1, 2012 Whatever. I also doubted that the buses on Randolph would stay there, or that the Red Line would be shut down. So, I guess I am batting 50%. If you couldn't tell from my tone that I was doubting art... On the other hand, I suppose that someone who will identify oneself as a CTA switchman will come here and debunk it all. Have one? Right. And how is it piling on when you're giving your opinion on what would be appropriate penalty IF the situation were true when no one in his right mind would want to risk legal penalties for purposely endangering hundreds of passengers in a packed train during rush hour or any other service time for that matter to do what art was passing on rumor supposedly happens with relatively inexperienced rail operators? So who again is rushing to react? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
See Tea Eh Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Right. And how is it piling on when you're giving your opinion on what would be appropriate penalty IF the situation were true when no one in his right mind would want to risk legal penalties for purposely endangering hundreds of passengers in a packed train during rush hour or any other service time for that matter to do what art was passing on rumor supposedly happens with relatively inexperienced rail operators? So who again is rushing to react? It's called a straw man argument. Nobody, under any test, would purposely put any passengers in danger (well, in danger of more than inconvenience, anyway). It's not how the system works. Yet, someone says something that is not relevant to the situation (e.g. "purposely endangering hundreds of passengers"), and other people react to that statement. Conditional or not ("If this is true"), any responses to that straw man are irrelevant and do not contribute to the useful discussion of the topic at hand, namely, trains taking the wrong lineup. Instead, they divert the discussion away from a productive state. (Some could say this thread took the wrong lineup) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 It's called a straw man argument. Nobody, under any test, would purposely put any passengers in danger (well, in danger of more than inconvenience, anyway). It's not how the system works. Yet, someone says something that is not relevant to the situation (e.g. "purposely endangering hundreds of passengers"), and other people react to that statement. Conditional or not ("If this is true"), any responses to that straw man are irrelevant and do not contribute to the useful discussion of the topic at hand, namely, trains taking the wrong lineup. Instead, they divert the discussion away from a productive state. (Some could say this thread took the wrong lineup) I stand by what I said since it should be obvious I was not saying anyone under CTA employment is actually purposely posing a danger. And if a person isn't bright enough to read and make that assessment from the context of that statement, it's more the problem of that individual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8H5307A Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 The train in question had a 2600 series car (Red Line Equipment) in the lead. Tower 18 gave it a Brown Line route. The operator took the wrong lineup! The operator of the aforementioned train was rather new (>2 months on the job). It does happen, even to veteran operators. The train was unloaded at Merchandise Mart and ran light to Armitage where a supervisor met the train and it was turned north to south at Armitage. After it was turned, supervision operated the train (since the aforementioned operator was removed from service) back to the loop and the train went back in service to 63rd/Ashland once it arrived at Clark/Lake. That Friday I had a train on the Green with 4 2400s from Howard and went southbound with Purple Loop signs. That was fun keeping the Evanstonians off the train. I didn't get any wrong line-ups, but then knowing I had the incorrect marker lights, I called the Towers and let them know what classification train I was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artthouwill Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 The train in question had a 2600 series car (Red Line Equipment) in the lead. Tower 18 gave it a Brown Line route. The operator took the wrong lineup! The operator of the aforementioned train was rather new (>2 months on the job). It does happen, even to veteran operators. The train was unloaded at Merchandise Mart and ran light to Armitage where a supervisor met the train and it was turned north to south at Armitage. After it was turned, supervision operated the train (since the aforementioned operator was removed from service) back to the loop and the train went back in service to 63rd/Ashland once it arrived at Clark/Lake. That Friday I had a train on the Green with 4 2400s from Howard and went southbound with Purple Loop signs. That was fun keeping the Evanstonians off the train. I didn't get any wrong line-ups, but then knowing I had the incorrect marker lights, I called the Towers and let them know what classification train I was! Thanx for the added info. It seems like the Tower gave tje lineup based on the fact the lead car was not a 2400series. I suppose during PM rush, the glare of the sun can make marker lights difficult to read. The question I have is whether those cars came from the Red or Blue Line. I would think Blue because that is normally where the Green would borrow 2600s from and those cars have compatible signs. Then you can make a case for the Tower error, yet it was still on the operator to make the adjustment by calling the Tower and getting the right lineup. It would seem to me if those were Red Line cars, the blinking white markers would be more visible to the Tower. While not the case in this instance, based on what my operator friends have said prior to this event, and based on my personal observation with the Orange line operator having to wait for correct lineups at three consecutive points, I stand by my comment that CTA will test new operators . I would think not in rush hours. What did they do with the Green rider? Were they put on a SB Purple or Brown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T8H5307A Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 What did they do with the Green rider? Were they put on a SB Purple or Brown? The operator was instructed to make an announcement apologizing for what happened and to tell the riders to catch a SB Purple Line back to Clark/Lake. I guess the operator finally did that after he got the PA working! LOL Also on the subject of testing operators by giving them a wrong lineup: Usually this will occur if the operator is qualifying and an instructor is on board. The instructor will call ahead to the tower and have it all set up to happen. The assigned operator of whose train the qualifying operator and instructor is on is instructed to be in the rear motor cab in the case the qualifying operator does take the wrong lineup he/she can pull the train back. They don't normally do this practice during the peak of rush hour! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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