Is The CTA Tipping Its Hand?

[chicagopcclcar]

There are a lot of people here who just love to spectulate...so I got to thinking while doing my "debriefing" on the IRM Snowflake Charter. And looking over the photos I shot out the front cab window, the thought occurred that the incline track work was an awful lot of work for just five months of reroute, unless there were plans afoot to take advantage of that work in the years to come. The incline track is not a high speed raceway. In the old, old days when the PCC 6000s ran on the incline, the speed downhill was about 15 or 20 MPH. There was no cab signals....there were wayside signals about every 300 ft, complete with track trips. It's what New Yorkers call "a timer zone." They call the signals "timers." We called them time signals. First there was a sign, black on yellow background that read "T" with a number...."T/15" meant a 15 MPH speed limit. The signalling worked by time increments, so many seconds to cover the distance. The first signal gave a yellow over lunar indication, the next signal was red with the trip up. If you covered the distance in more than the seconds given, the next signal changed to yellow over lunar and the trip went down. If you were too fast, the signal stayed red and you had to stop. The last signal would change to green. If there was a train in the circuit ahead, a signal behind the train would change to only yellow, meaning the next signal would not change from red until the train ahead moved. Motormen got to memorize how each timer would change, and would anticipate, including watching the trip start down. Now I'm talking about the PCC days, later the CTA would change the indication to yellow over yellow.

Going uphill the limit was "all you could get"...about 25 MPH, the high performance cars would later do better. So in short, this is no high speed territory. All this work, budget for five months? Maybe there's something else. Like a poker game you watch the other player to tip his hand..maybe he scratches his nose when he's bluffing. Next I thought why is the city building a station at Cermak....there's another two blocks away already. Now maybe if there's a lot of traffic coming up the incline in the future, that station would make sense. One of the popular theories is that the Purple line will be shifted to the subway. That would work and they would need a few fewer Red line trains if the Purple was converted to run all-day. That would call for slightly fewer trains out on the Ryan end, helping balance the present-day mismatch in traffic levels. Purples would become full-time expresses to Belmont, they've crossed over to the the Red line tracks at Clark Junction, giving room for more Browns to the Loop. And so on and so on. I'm putting money on 5000s to the Purple that would no longer be a shuttle-only line during the off rush hours. Unless....would there be enough 3200s to equip an expanded Brown and Purple lines. This spectulation is not based on likes or wanna-see, but on "is the CTA tipping its hand?" Frosting on the cake would be news that the CTA is putting in a new interlocking control at 13th St. I think this is a left-over from the1940s. I watched as the manager on duty at Roosevelt would call out each approaching southbound to the tower when the "Roosevelt" Browns were coming through the subway a few weeks ago. The tower could then set up routes either to the Ryan or up the incline. Primative.

A couple of photos of the incline work that weren't in the other topic.

DH

[BusHunter]

That's alot of speculating. But does the Purple line have enough ridership to become a full time service? If they wanted to use the incline full time what makes the most sense to me is linking the Orange line to the Red line. Roosevelt/Green/Orange (elevated) has alot of riders who transfer to Roosevelt/Red line there. And the north side Red line complains of overcrowding anyway, so why not add in another line for yet more service. The subway proved it could handle the extra service this month. Then the overcrowding issues on the state street subway would be solved in my opinion. They could always make the Orange line run the express track up north and just terminate at Howard, and make the purple line just a standard shuttle.

[chicagopcclcar]

That's alot of speculating. But does the Purple line have enough ridership to become a full time service? If they wanted to use the incline full time what makes the most sense to me is linking the Orange line to the Red line. Roosevelt/Green/Orange (elevated) has alot of riders who transfer to Roosevelt/Red line there. And the north side Red line complains of overcrowding anyway, so why not add in another line for yet more service. The subway proved it could handle the extra service this month. Then the overcrowding issues on the state street subway would be solved in my opinion. They could always make the Orange line run the express track up north and just terminate at Howard, and make the purple line just a standard shuttle.

Interesting....but it leaves Cermak/McCormick out of the equation.

I'm adding another line to relieve north side overcrowding....a full time Purple line which would get ridership from the express stops in the city and Brown line transfers.

DH

[Busjack]

The logical conclusions are either they have the money and are spending it now to prevent trouble on the Red LIne reroute (similar to the Englewood route) or the Purple Line one, as DH noted above and others have been advocating. Besides the plans to make Wilson an express/local station, the Purple Express option to a north Red Line local was raised in connection with private studies last year that the north Red was running about twice the passenger load as the south. Either one starts short turning Red Line trains (sort of like the Blue Line ones at UIC), or more logically, make the Purple Line the express alternative.

On the statement that the incline used to be on timer signals, I seriously doubt that CTA would allow that kind of control today, for 5 minutes let alone 5 months. However, the expenditure now is a bit surprising.

[mkohut]

You have to keep in mind the way the Wilson station is being done as a transfer station.

[chicagopcclcar]

The logical conclusions are either they have the money and are spending it now to prevent trouble on the Red LIne reroute (similar to the Englewood route) or the Purple Line one, as DH noted above and others have been advocating. Besides the plans to make Wilson an express/local station, the Purple Express option to a north Red Line local was raised in connection with private studies last year that the north Red was running about twice the passenger load as the south. Either one starts short turning Red Line trains (sort of like the Blue Line ones at UIC), or more logically, make the Purple Line the express alternative.

On the statement that the incline used to be on timer signals, I seriously doubt that CTA would allow that kind of control today, for 5 minutes let alone 5 months. However, the expenditure now is a bit surprising.

Agreed....the "timer" type of control was replaced by the present cab signal signalling. New York still has the timers because they don't have the cab signal system. I mentioned the old timers we used back in the PCC days just to emphasize that the incline is NOT high speed or even medium speed track, worthy of the track work its receiving. So something else must be in the plans after the brief five month stint of Red line reroute.

DH

[BusHunter]

Interesting....but it leaves Cermak/McCormick out of the equation.

I'm adding another line to relieve north side overcrowding....a full time Purple line which would get ridership from the express stops in the city and Brown line transfers.

DH

One thing that doesn't get me on the Purple line extension is that they can only use 6 car trains. They really need to run 8 car trains or find some line that will, like the Orange line. Plus where would you turn trains full time south of there. A through service would sound like a lesser headache. Of course like Busjack says they could just be looking for a way to turn trains at Roosevelt which is probably more likely. The short turning trains appear to be a success on the Blue line.

[chicagopcclcar]

One thing that doesn't get me on the Purple line extension is that they can only use 6 car trains. They really need to run 8 car trains or find some line that will, like the Orange line. Plus where would you turn trains full time south of there. A through service would sound like a lesser headache. Of course like Busjack says they could just be looking for a way to turn trains at Roosevelt which is probably more likely. The short turning trains appear to be a success on the Blue line.

You have little faith in CTA carpenters....they could extend platforms quite easily. Linden, Davis, Howard are already eight car platforms. All platforms on the Evanston branch can berth seven car trains right now, except South Boulevard. (The Holiday Train is 7 cars long) Those north of Davis were longer at one time and were cut back. You should see the outside-the-platform stairways that are going up at Garfield/Green. Right now, they would turn eight car Purple trains at 37th Middle. That track should handle twelve car trains, with an added bonus of serving Sox Park in the season.

DH

[mkohut]

It did cost a lot of money fixing the platforms on the Brown Line

[MetroShadow]

It did cost a lot of money fixing the platforms on the Brown Line

And rehabilitating the Purple (not counting red) will be costly as well. No use expanding the platforms if you're leaving the trackage as it is (and some of those stations need work).

See: Foster or Central Avenue.

[Busjack]

It did cost a lot of money fixing the platforms on the Brown Line

And rehabilitating the Purple (not counting red) will be costly as well. No use expanding the platforms if you're leaving the trackage as it is (and some of those stations need work).

See: Foster or Central Avenue.

A couple of platforms north of Davis only had the concrete tops taken off when "cut back," but they originally had left the steel. Don't know in what shape that steel is, but the jobs there would be less involved than on most of the northside project: check the steel and add a couple of concrete slabs.

Dempster and Main are more decrepit, but unlike the Brown Line, they are on embankment rather than having to construct additional steel structure.

Of course, the Purple Line is only supposed to be a supplementary reliever, I don't see why it would need 8 car trains.The only new stop(s) would be Wilson and maybe Loyola (depending on what they would do considering the current center platform, i.e. maybe switch at Granville), and it would lose the stops between Merchandise Mart and Armitage.

There isn't any problem on the Loop L now indicating boarding positions for different lines and different length of trains.

[Sam92]

Agreed....the "timer" type of control was replaced by the present cab signal signalling. New York still has the timers because they don't have the cab signal system. I mentioned the old timers we used back in the PCC days just to emphasize that the incline is NOT high speed or even medium speed track, worthy of the track work its receiving. So something else must be in the plans after the brief five month stint of Red line reroute.

DH

Did a double take and indeed realize that they are using the same track work as the Loop and Blue Line O'Hare has received...so they must plan on sending the Red Line up and down at an unrestricted speed compared to back then

[chicagopcclcar]

Did a double take and indeed realize that they are using the same track work as the Loop and Blue Line O'Hare has received...so they must plan on sending the Red Line up and down at an unrestricted speed compared to back then

I think you are misunderstanding what I said. Railroads and transit lines no longer spike rails...they use clips. That's what the contractor is using on the incline as is now used elsewhere on the system such as Tower 18, Loop renewal, Hubbard St. curve, etc, etc. The construction techniques are going to be almost identical all over the system where new trackwork is involved. Newly built track constructions being equal, the track speed is determined by many other factors. The major factor downhill on the incline is control of the train speed downgrade...translation...you're not going to get more than 25 MPH. Approaching an interlocking, downgrade on the incline...still 25 MPH at best. Example elsewhere....35 MPH is the best you can get at Tower 12 with a straight through lineup and no trains ahead.

Now going uphill on the incline...you've still got to clear the switchwork southbound. That's not a high speed switch and you've got to remember passenger comfort....25 MPH is my Las Vegas bet. After you clear the switch you've still .

got the curve....35 MPH because high performance cars still do have some good amount of acceleration. A third of the way up the hill, now you're approaching another interlocking junction. You know the routine.

So in short NO UNRESTRICTED SPEED whatsoever. I'm saying the quality of the trackwork is a clue that they plan heavy use of this incline long after the Ryan Red Line Reroute is over. I'm betting on a Purple line reroute that's not temporary either.

DH

[Sam92]

I think you are misunderstanding what I said. Railroads and transit lines no longer spike rails...they use clips. That's what the contractor is using on the incline as is now used elsewhere on the system such as Tower 18, Loop renewal, Hubbard St. curve, etc, etc. The construction techniques are going to be almost identical all over the system where new trackwork is involved. Newly built track constructions being equal, the track speed is determined by many other factors. The major factor downhill on the incline is control of the train speed downgrade...translation...you're not going to get more than 25 MPH. Approaching an interlocking, downgrade on the incline...still 25 MPH at best. Example elsewhere....35 MPH is the best you can get at Tower 12 with a straight through lineup and no trains ahead.

Now going uphill on the incline...you've still got to clear the switchwork southbound. That's not a high speed switch and you've got to remember passenger comfort....25 MPH is my Las Vegas bet. After you clear the switch you've still .

got the curve....35 MPH because high performance cars still do have some good amount of acceleration. A third of the way up the hill, now you're approaching another interlocking junction. You know the routine.

So in short NO UNRESTRICTED SPEED whatsoever. I'm saying the quality of the trackwork is a clue that they plan heavy use of this incline long after the Ryan Red Line Reroute is over. I'm betting on a Purple line reroute that's not temporary either.

DH

So I guess those 5000's that get assigned to the purple line won't be sitting around so much after all