Wells Street Bridge Project, Part Two

[BusHunter]

I wonder why they don't change the roll signs for Roosevelt SB until they get to Belmont. Anyone boarding north of Belmont looking to ride in the subway would just be waiting for infinity. That being said the Roosevelt train still takes track 1 until Fullerton so it is possible to ride Red line destination trains on both tracks 1 and 2. Operators are still saying the wrong things like the m. mart trains are not running until after the rush. I'm surprised they don't hand these guys a script, if they don't know what to say (It's understandably confusing anyway) or a quick message from Mr. CTA.

[mkohut]

I think the idea is to let riders before Belmont have the choice of what train to get on so they don't have to transfer trains.

[BusHunter]

I think the idea is to let riders before Belmont have the choice of what train to get on so they don't have to transfer trains.

Yeah, but there not going to know if all the trains have a loop destination until Belmont. That's the point I was trying to make.

[chicagopcclcar]

I wonder why they don't change the roll signs for Roosevelt SB until they get to Belmont. Anyone boarding north of Belmont looking to ride in the subway would just be waiting for infinity. That being said the Roosevelt train still takes track 1 until Fullerton so it is possible to ride Red line destination trains on both tracks 1 and 2. Operators are still saying the wrong things like the m. mart trains are not running until after the rush. I'm surprised they don't hand these guys a script, if they don't know what to say (It's understandably confusing anyway) or a quick message from Mr. CTA.

All operators are supposed to have in their possession a printed card which has prepared scripts to read at specified locations. True, microphone technique varies widely. Is this due in large part to the dependance of the prerecorded announcements? I disagree about the signs....passengers should know where their train is going as they board. No surprises midstream. If there are two subway trains at Belmont, the inner track should get into the subway first as the "Roosevelt" subway train on the outside has two more stops to make. I know some find it hard to believe but there is a printed schedule in use.

[chicagopcclcar]

Yeah, but there not going to know if all the trains have a loop destination until Belmont. That's the point I was trying to make.

Why wouldn't they know...Loop sign means Merchandise Mart is final destination. Roosevelt sign means Roosevelt Red line is final destination. THe SB Roosevelt trains that continue on to Midway change signs somewhere...anyone know where? I did learn that in normal times, the Midway bound Brown line trains on the outside Loop change signs at Library so that passengers waiting for a Midway train won't see one on the opposite track and get confused.

[BusHunter]

Why wouldn't they know...Loop sign means Merchandise Mart is final destination. Roosevelt sign means Roosevelt Red line is final destination.

In this case loop means roosevelt if you board from southport north. If your not paying attention and watching your destination change while your on the train you will end up either in a subway when you wanted the elevated or standing on a platform from Southport north wondering where is the Roosevelt train. (I thought roosevelt signs were displayed at kimball)

[jtrosario]

I wonder why they don't change the roll signs for Roosevelt SB until they get to Belmont.

During Phase 1, I was able to get onto a Red Roosevelt signed train at Francisco and by the 3rd day it was reported that everything was leaving Kimball correctly marked with either Brown Loop signs for Merchandise Mart or Red Roosevelt signs for Roosevelt.

Are signs being changed SB at Belmont now for all Brown line Roosevelt bound trains, was there perhaps an aberration/destination change needed based on track congestion ahead, or is it my misunderstanding that there is a suggestion to change signs at Belmont?

[BusHunter]

During Phase 1, I was able to get onto a Red Roosevelt signed train at Francisco and by the 3rd day it was reported that everything was leaving Kimball correctly marked with either Brown Loop signs for Merchandise Mart or Red Roosevelt signs for Roosevelt.

Are signs being changed SB at Belmont now for all Brown line Roosevelt bound trains, was there perhaps an aberration/destination change needed based on track congestion ahead, or is it my misunderstanding that there is a suggestion to change signs at Belmont?

Yeah, i could have swore during phase 1 I boarded a train at Kimball that was signed for roosevelt. This time, at Belmont there were two CTA guys in vests that were checking destination signs, so I assumed this is where they switched the signs. There is no extra CTA personnel north of Belmont on the Brown line, so if someone did come out of Kimball with the wrong signs, it wouldn't be caught until Belmont.

[busfan2847]

Yeah, i could have swore during phase 1 I boarded a train at Kimball that was signed for roosevelt. This time, at Belmont there were two CTA guys in vests that were checking destination signs, so I assumed this is where they switched the signs. There is no extra CTA personnel north of Belmont on the Brown line, so if someone did come out of Kimball with the wrong signs, it wouldn't be caught until Belmont.

Trains ARE leaving Kimball either displaying Brown Loop for Merchandise Mart or Red Roosevelt for sevice to downtown via the subway. Roosevelt trains are on the outer track at Belmont, stop at Wellington & Diversey before moving to the center track just before Fullerton.

Certainly on Monday there were extra cta personel on every station north of Belmont to help customers. As others have said trains are running to a timetable and that will dictate wether they are showing Roosevelt or Loop. There should not be a problem with trains not being able to show Roosevelt this time - they have done this before. I assume that is one of the reasons I saw so many 2400 on the Brown line on Monday.

[chicagopcclcar]

Updates...updates.... Bus Hunter wrote, "I wonder why they don't change the roll signs for Roosevelt SB until they get to Belmont. Anyone boarding north of Belmont looking to ride in the subway would just be waiting for infinity." Evidently he thought roll signs were being changed from "Loop" to "Roosevelt" between Southport and Belmont SB, possibly because he saw some personnel "checking signs at Belmont on the first day." That is incorrect...trains leave Kimball Terminal with proper rollsigns displayed...either "Loop" or "Roosevelt". Passengers boarding on the branch always know where their train is headed.

The three "gap trains" that wait SB at Clark Junction have always been 2400s. No 5000s, so there were no 5000s running with brown line signs this time, unlike Project I. Overheard Howard St. specifically acknowledging that 5000s could not be used in "gap service", also referred to as "extra trains run numbers 851-853." The unadvertised three "express trains" can and did use 5000s. They run in service from Howard St. to Addison interlocking where they switch from track one to track two. They stop in service at Addison and continue to 95th St. as a Red line. "Gap train" crews do stay with their equipment so as to return it to the proper yard/terminal. Same with Orange line crews on the Brown.

Friday and Thursday, one "gap train" did go into service as a Brown line train to the Mart. Also on Friday, a Brown line train stalled in the 63rd Middle Track forcing the following Brown line train to run lite to 95th St. to turn. Overall the week has proceeded without any major occurances. Good job CTA!!!

[joechicago]

Overall the week has proceeded without any major occurances. Good job CTA!!!

I agree, they have done a very good job considering all the variables. I have been taking a Brown to the Mart in the mornings and I noticed that one thing they improved on from the last time was getting the timings right on the single track between Chicago & the Mart. Almost every day as we pulled into Chicago heading South, another Brown line train was pulling in heading North, so we didn't have to wait at Chicago too long to get clearance to proceed.

[Sam92]

One thing I find odd is that 103rd and 77th are he main two garages running their artics shuttles while NP and K are closer and NP has over 130 artics. Although I did see K running artics on the 37A and Chicago's supplementing the 37 in rush but other times, 103rd and 77th handle everything.

[chicagopcclcar]

I agree, they have done a very good job considering all the variables. I have been taking a Brown to the Mart in the mornings and I noticed that one thing they improved on from the last time was getting the timings right on the single track between Chicago & the Mart. Almost every day as we pulled into Chicago heading South, another Brown line train was pulling in heading North, so we didn't have to wait at Chicago too long to get clearance to proceed.

Good observation.....Also if there was any delay to southbound Mart service, the NB road train at the Mart would delay its departure until it was clear that a SB was arriving at Chicago. There was also a "gap train" stationed at the Mart if needed....it wasn't needed all week. A "fallback" was put into the schedule so that the arriving crew did not have to go right back out. There are still many "railroad-minded" managers and supervisors working at the CTA to keep things running.

[SE CTA Fan]

Question ... when the Green Line / Lake street L was rehabbed ... was the same level of work done to the Lake Street bridge over the river? I can't recall ... but wonder if the Lake Street bridge might suffer a similar fate and corresponding closures.

Also, interesting drive along the Dan Ryan the other day ... saw the "Brown Line Trains Enter Here" signboard at the entry to the middle track around 63rd St. Somewhat interesting that the Brown line operators need to be reminded where they will be going ...

SE CTA Fan

[joechicago]

Question ... when the Green Line / Lake street L was rehabbed ... was the same level of work done to the Lake Street bridge over the river? I can't recall ... but wonder if the Lake Street bridge might suffer a similar fate and corresponding closures.

Funny you mention that, I was looking at that bridge today on my walk to work as a result of having to get off at the Mart and walk into the loop. The structure looks pretty sound, and not worn/rusted like the Wells bridge was. Still has wood sidewalks though, I don't get why those haven't been replaced.

[busfan2847]

One thing I find odd is that 103rd and 77th are he main two garages running their artics shuttles while NP and K are closer and NP has over 130 artics. Although I did see K running artics on the 37A and Chicago's supplementing the 37 in rush but other times, 103rd and 77th handle everything.

They have only been running the new 4300 series artics on the Brown Line shuttles (although there was a Kedzie 40' New Flyer labelled as a Brown Line shuttle parked on La Salle this morning). Most 4300s are allocated to 103rd (45) and 77th (23+) with a smaller number at Kedzie (18). I have seen vehicles from all three garages on the shuttles. Most of the later 4300 are being allocated to 77th to be used in the Red line shutdown and 103rd did not loose as many buses as it gained 4300s. At present it means that 77th (and 103rd) have more spare buses than the other garages.

Most of North Park and Kedzies input to the Wells St project are extra vehicles on routes parallel to the Brown and Purple lines into downtown. As well as the 37 and 37A there are additional buses on the 22 both am and pm and on the 146 & 147 pm.

[chicagopcclcar]

Question ... when the Green Line / Lake street L was rehabbed ... was the same level of work done to the Lake Street bridge over the river? I can't recall ... but wonder if the Lake Street bridge might suffer a similar fate and corresponding closures.

Also, interesting drive along the Dan Ryan the other day ... saw the "Brown Line Trains Enter Here" signboard at the entry to the middle track around 63rd St. Somewhat interesting that the Brown line operators need to be reminded where they will be going ...

SE CTA Fan

The Lake Street bridge was reportedly rehabbed during the Green line shutdown. So by Monday, both streets will have their "third" bridge. Both bridges were originally swing bridges with the pier in the middle. The bascule bridge was built inplace with the two leaves raised in the "up" position. Then the changeov er took place over a weekend.

Man, I've tried to figure out how I might get a picture of that signboard. Reminds me of the "eight car trains do not stop here" signboards at Armitage, Diversey, Wellington, before the Brown Capacity project.

[SE CTA Fan]

I've got a bad cell phone picture taken whilst driving a couple of days ago while creeping along in traffic. Go figure, but the only spot where the Ryan wasn't at a dead standstill was at the sign. I saw it in the distance and chuckled, thought of this thread and tried to snap a picture when driving by and not rear-end car in front of me. I'll upload them as soon as I can and report back.

The Dan Ryan isn't my normal commute and was taking alternate route since a bad accident on 55 created massive traffic jam the other day, so I guess it worked out in the end.

SE CTA Fan

[chicagopcclcar]

It's over......1929 hours.....if this had been Promontory Point, the telegrapher would have keyed.....D....O....N....E! But this is Chicago and it's the CTA....so at 1929 hours, rail control announced that the last of the Brown line Roosevelt reroutes had cleared the Webster crossovers and was on normal rails, headed to Kimball terminal. Although the Wells Street Bridge project number two was not completely over, the major task of the reroutes, "gap trains", extra trains and express trains, all the personnel in extra positions, the towers that were manned but are not back to automatic, that Herculean effort has been completed. True, one half hour from that time, Brown line trains would tie up at Chicago & Franklin station for tonight and for the rest of the weekend. Also overnight, the weekend closures at Tower 18 would begin again for the second weekend. Work remains still to be done at Hubbard curve and at Lake & Wells. Come Monday morning......well, we'll wait and see. I think the results of some careful planning and lessons applied showed up quite well this time around.

[BusHunter]

Updates...updates.... Bus Hunter wrote, "I wonder why they don't change the roll signs for Roosevelt SB until they get to Belmont. Anyone boarding north of Belmont looking to ride in the subway would just be waiting for infinity." Evidently he thought roll signs were being changed from "Loop" to "Roosevelt" between Southport and Belmont SB, possibly because he saw some personnel "checking signs at Belmont on the first day." That is incorrect...trains leave Kimball Terminal with proper rollsigns displayed...either "Loop" or "Roosevelt". Passengers boarding on the branch always know where their train is headed.

The three "gap trains" that wait SB at Clark Junction have always been 2400s. No 5000s, so there were no 5000s running with brown line signs this time, unlike Project I. Overheard Howard St. specifically acknowledging that 5000s could not be used in "gap service", also referred to as "extra trains run numbers 851-853." The unadvertised three "express trains" can and did use 5000s. They run in service from Howard St. to Addison interlocking where they switch from track one to track two. They stop in service at Addison and continue to 95th St. as a Red line. "Gap train" crews do stay with their equipment so as to return it to the proper yard/terminal. Same with Orange line crews on the Brown.

Friday and Thursday, one "gap train" did go into service as a Brown line train to the Mart. Also on Friday, a Brown line train stalled in the 63rd Middle Track forcing the following Brown line train to run lite to 95th St. to turn. Overall the week has proceeded without any major occurances. Good job CTA!!!

To clarify, yes they were using Roosevelt signs from Kimball. But there was a Roosevelt train signed for loop from Kimball to Belmont which I was on. The guys in the vests caught it at Belmont and made the operator change it. This was on Wednesday, the third day, and I had not yet checked the north end to know what they were doing, so I was persuaded to think by this that they were changing signs at Belmont. If you follow my quotes I did say "If an operator left Kimball with the wrong signs it wouldn't be caught until Belmont" and it wasn't. We don't know how many other trains did this, but it was a problem with the line that I noted.

[SE CTA Fan]

A bad cell phone picture of the "Brown Line enter here". Apologies for the bad shot, taken while driving ...

It seemed kind of funny to me that Brown Line operators, after travelling down the Dan Ryan for awhile, would need a visual reminder on where to go (I think the barely visible arrow pointing to the left is most helpful).

It reminded me of a photo I took at Tower 18 during this year's Snowflake Special ...

All the signage explaining the signals kind of takes the challenge out of knowing the signal system ...

SE CTA Fan

[chicagomotorman]

Quite the contrary, things didn't goe that well. Ask the red line operators how late they were all week, receiving no lunches or fall back/recovery time. Not to mention that assinine decision to turn back the Ravenswood trains at 63rd middle. My ex-coworkers are not off the hook, most of them need a geography lessons.

[chicagopcclcar]

Quite the contrary, things didn't goe that well. Ask the red line operators how late they were all week, receiving no lunches or fall back/recovery time. Not to mention that assinine decision to turn back the Ravenswood trains at 63rd middle. My ex-coworkers are not off the hook, most of them need a geography lessons.

"Lunches, fall back/recovery, requesting personals", Isn't that a result of the union-management agreement that the workers voted on and approved? I wouldn't call the 63rd St. turnback "assinine"....where else are you going to turn back.....37th Middle, after Western Ave. on the Orange. Admit it, none are good convienent choices. So if there aren't any GOOD choices, criticising the one-of-three choices made isn't fair. I agree on the sign and the geography lessons.

[chicagopcclcar]

Some further observations......turning back at 63rd Middle. Did you go to Roosevelt and observe the operations there? Wells Project One?? This week's Project 2?? I did! When I was not there I monitored radio communications. In Project One, all turned Brown line trains had to wait in the queue along with the five trains from Midway...they waited on the incline. 13th Tower in the subway is not state-of-the-art. The manager at Roosevelt had to constantly inform the tower operator of what was comng southbound so the lineup could be put in ahead of the train and not delay service. 13th St. Tower has no visual of the right-of-ways. This led to allowing passengers to continue south to 35th Bronzeville to avoid delay due to the need to empty the trains. Added to this was the availabilty of 63rd Middle induced management to stage extra trains there for insertion into the NB flow. All these trains backed up service on the Red line as far as 87th St in the pm rush. Admitedly, this backup was compounded by the practice of not allowing a train to proceed from a station until the station ahead was cleared. That would prevent any train from being stranded inbetween stations with nowhere for passengers to alight in an emergency. So that inconvience was due to safety concerns.

Going to 63rd Middle for the turn back seemed much more fluid. The added distance adds minutes that overall are just a drop in the bucket. The Brown line trains ran lite, were much more evenly spaced among the in-service Reds, went in to the middle, had time for the operator to walk end to end, and were inserted back into the flow of traffic. Rail control announced when to insert, hold if there was a Red running express NB. There was no backups like before when the insertion was done two stops before the downtown stations. If a Brown was bad-ordered, it was sent to 95th St. I give the edge to 63rd as being the better of the three.

[chicagomotorman]

Do you think it was necessary to run all those extra trains to 95th? As far as the the supplemental red line schedules go, they were all thrown out the window. The turning back at 63rd wouldn't have been so bad if all those uneeded extra trains weren't inserted in.