Ventra - Feedback and Updates

[jajuan]

The Clever Device does (obviously BusTracker wouldn't work without that),. but the question is what tells the Ventra reader what route the bus is on? I bet there is some sort of linking between the systems.

I think the Clever Device may be linked to the Ventra reader also because I've been on some buses that were on layover that sat idle long enough for the automatic engine cutoff to engage. And I noticed that the operators would have to log back into the Clever Device after turning the engine back on to make the Ventra reader re-engage. Also the operators have a card that they swipe across the reader to signal a change in operators before they log in to the Clever Device during reliefs.

[sw4400]

The Clever Device does (obviously BusTracker wouldn't work without that),. but the question is what tells the Ventra reader what route the bus is on? I bet there is some sort of linking between the systems.

I think the Clever Device may be linked to the Ventra reader also because I've been on some buses that were on layover that sat idle long enough for the automatic engine cutoff to engage. And I noticed that the operators would have to log back into the Clever Device after turning the engine back on to make the Ventra reader re-engage. Also the operators have a card that they swipe across the reader to signal a change in operators before they log in to the Clever Device during reliefs.

I concur with you both, and this bit from a trip a few days ago may show what you are getting at. The circled trip was on a Irving Park bus. I'm pretty sure the stops were announced and the display was working, but maybe something was not working correctly anyways, because it reads it as "0 Deadhead" for the route rather than "80 Irving Park".

[jajuan]

I concur with you both, and this bit from a trip a few days ago may show what you are getting at. The circled trip was on a Irving Park bus. I'm pretty sure the stops were announced and the display was working, but maybe something was not working correctly anyways, because it reads it as "0 Deadhead" for the route rather than "80 Irving Park".

I also forgot to mention that in regards to Busjack's mention of interlining that I remember seeing through BusTracker a couple months ago that some 148 trips in the PM rush are interlined with PM 135 and 136 trips. So it's possible that operator completed a trip as a 148 before that trip on the 135 on which I boarded her bus and the Ventra reader considered the bus to still be a 148 bus.

[Busjack]

Pace has a solicitation for parts to upgrade fareboxes, which turn out to be the CENTSaBILL fareboxes with which we are all familiar. The connection here appears to be that whatever was said about Cubic taking over fare collection, it doesn't include cash fare collection.

[Busjack]

I concur with you both, and this bit from a trip a few days ago may show what you are getting at. The circled trip was on a Irving Park bus. I'm pretty sure the stops were announced and the display was working, but maybe something was not working correctly anyways, because it reads it as "0 Deadhead" for the route rather than "80 Irving Park".

I have the feeling that that is similar to the Ridership Report, which says

Boardings are recorded using the bus farebox and farecard reader. In the uncommon situation when there is an operating error with the farebox and Planning Analytics cannot determine on which route a given trip’s boardings should be allocated, these boardings are tallied as Route 0.

Here the operator isn't logging into the farebox. but probably something similar is happening, at least as jajuan described how the operator also has to tap the Ventra reader.

I also wonder if the tap log in has anything to do with all the reports on the CTA Tattler of Ventra readers not working. I don't see those reports here.

[Busjack]

The foul up du jour, as reported by the CTA Tattler, is if you pay the $5 deposit but don't put transit value on the card, you can't register it, even though it was represented that you could immediately register the card and get the $5 as transit value.

That, of course, reminded me about sw's discourse about the two PLUs, and apparently shows what happens if both are not recorded. Also, no indication yet that telephone support is adequate to fix all these problems.

According to [epithet deleted] Brian Steele to the CTA Tattler, this might have been due to "the merchant not activating the card," so my guess about punching in the correct PLUs may be correct. sw figured out his job, but maybe some other merchant didn't.

Of course, that still doesn't explain the Ventra phone person saying that it was that the purchaser didn't put money into the transit account as well as paid the deposit.

Steele also had b.s. that you can't currently register a bank card, but somehow you can add transit value to it.

[jajuan]

Looks like it's becoming more apparent that Ventra can't distinguish between CTA interlines. I've got two 147 PM trips recorded on my transit account yesterday except they were one trip each on the 22 (interlined with 147 at the tail end of the PM rush to get artics on the route in place of 1000s during late evening service) and on the 136 (some trips interlined with 147's PM Devon/Broadway trips). Now this is minor on my end individually, but I wonder how accurate this will make the ridership reports given Ventra is replacing the magnetic stripe cards (which no longer will be sold directly through CTA starting October 7th though retail locations will likely still be selling through what they still have on hand) and the two variants of the Chicago Card. It also makes me wonder if Chicago Card and CCP had this issue with reading between CTA interlining. Remember it's the ridership reports that get looked over whenever CTA execs want to throw service cuts on us. And given Claypool's DeCrowd Plan and the cuts that have been done here and there in various picks, and some of them being sneak cuts announced at the last minute or hidden within a quarterly tweak of the bus schedules, following the start of the DeCrowd Plan, it's becomes a bigger concern that the ridership reports are accurate.

[owine]

Looks like it's becoming more apparent that Ventra can't distinguish between CTA interlines. I've got two 147 PM trips recorded on my transit account yesterday except they were one trip each on the 22 (interlined with 147 at the tail end of the PM rush to get artics on the route in place of 1000s during late evening service) and on the 136 (some trips interlined with 147's PM Devon/Broadway trips). Now this is minor on my end individually, but I wonder how accurate this will make the ridership reports given Ventra is replacing the magnetic stripe cards (which no longer will be sold directly through CTA starting October 7th though retail locations will likely still be selling through what they still have on hand) and the two variants of the Chicago Card. It also makes me wonder if Chicago Card and CCP had this issue with reading between CTA interlining. Remember it's the ridership reports that get looked over whenever CTA execs want to throw service cuts on us. And given Claypool's DeCrowd Plan and the cuts that have been done here and there in various picks, and some of them being sneak cuts announced at the last minute or hidden within a quarterly tweak of the bus schedules, following the start of the DeCrowd Plan, it's becomes a bigger concern that the ridership reports are accurate.

Do ridership reports come from fare media? I always thought they used the passenger counters at the front/rear doors for that data.

[Busjack]

Do ridership reports come from fare media? I always thought they used the passenger counters at the front/rear doors for that data.

If you read the report, it says "Boardings are recorded using the bus farebox and farecard reader."

However, in that the June one was counting R routes, obviously nobody was paying there. So, maybe it is now a mix, or as you think.

[jajuan]

If you read the report, it says "Boardings are recorded using the bus farebox and farecard reader."

However, in that the June one was counting R routes, obviously nobody was paying there. So, maybe it is now a mix, or as you think.

Given the R routes are free and they're somehow getting counted, it probably is a mix of the two as you hypothesize. There still should be a record of each bus's individual use on a give route considering BusTracker does know the difference between the interlines in play. Perhaps the counters owine mention are used in conjunction with BusTracker to account for free rides, times a farecard reader and/or farebox malfunctions, and to correct for interlining that CTA become increasingly more reliant upon in these recent years.

[Kevin]

So yesterday I used my Ventra card to board a rail station and was charged the proper $2.25 fare. Within an hour, I transferred to a bus where I was charged BOTH another full fare ($2.00) and a transfer ($0.25). I submitted a support request on Ventra's site, which immediately was assigned a status of "Closed Incident."

[Busjack]

So yesterday I used my Ventra card to board a rail station and was charged the proper $2.25 fare. Within an hour, I transferred to a bus where I was charged BOTH another full fare ($2.00) and a transfer ($0.25). I submitted a support request on Ventra's site, which immediately was assigned a status of "Closed Incident."

Since it was a Ventra card rather than a bank card, you were definitely screwed on this one, which is the "foul up du jour."

Maybe the incompetent machine thought you tapped twice to let your friend ride on your card.

So are they going to do anything about it?

[sw4400]

So yesterday I used my Ventra card to board a rail station and was charged the proper $2.25 fare. Within an hour, I transferred to a bus where I was charged BOTH another full fare ($2.00) and a transfer ($0.25). I submitted a support request on Ventra's site, which immediately was assigned a status of "Closed Incident."

Looking at the fare info for Ventra Cards on the CTA main page, weren't you charged right? I'm not sure about the .25 cent transfer fee, but bus and train appear to be not transferrable.

"L" fare is $2.25 and bus fare is $2.00 plus .25 cents for two more bus rides within two hours, so if you boarded, say, the #9 Ashland bus it should say "Transfer 9 Ashland Transit Value $0.00" provided you do before 12:14:44 PM.

Here's the * footnote:

* Applies at all train stations except O’Hare (where a premium fare applies).

[jajuan]

Looking at the fare info for Ventra Cards on the CTA main page, weren't you charged right? I'm not sure about the .25 cent transfer fee, but bus and train appear to be not transferrable.

"L" fare is $2.25 and bus fare is $2.00 plus .25 cents for two more bus rides within two hours, so if you boarded, say, the #9 Ashland bus it should say "Transfer 9 Ashland Transit Value $0.00" provided you do before 12:14:44 PM.

No, he was overcharged. Since he was using his Ventra card and not his bankcard and it was well within a two hour time frame (his bus ride coming just 40 minutes after he tapped for his train ride), he only should have been charged the $0.25 transfer cost when he boarded the 62. He got charged that and an additional $2 full fare for the bus ride.

[nflyer22]

If you read the report, it says "Boardings are recorded using the bus farebox and farecard reader."

Given the R routes are free and they're somehow getting counted, it probably is a mix of the two as you hypothesize. There still should be a record of each bus's individual use on a give route considering BusTracker does know the difference between the interlines in play. Perhaps the counters owine mention are used in conjunction with BusTracker to account for free rides, times a farecard reader and/or farebox malfunctions, and to correct for interlining that CTA become increasingly more reliant upon in these recent years.

I have noticed that whenever I boarded a bus that did not accept fare for whatever reason, the operator would press a button on the farebox for each passenger that boarded. The farebox 'beeps' very subtly every time the operator pressed the button. I have noticed this on the R routes whenever I rode, and way back in the day when the Chinatown/Pilsen shuttles were operating, which was also free of charge. My guess is that is how they are counting passengers.

[Busjack]

I have noticed that whenever I boarded a bus that did not accept fare for whatever reason, the operator would press a button for each passenger that boarded. The farebox has a very subtle 'beep' whenever the operator does this. I have noticed this on the R routes whenever I rode, and way back in the day when the Chinatown/Pilsen shuttles were operating. My guess is that is how they are counting passengers.

In that you saw the drivers take that extra step, that does answer the question.

[Amtrak41]

An intermodal transfer with boarding within 2 hours is the easiest thing they have to program, and they even screwed that up.

Maybe the clocks on the fare readers are not in sync ?

[Busjack]

An intermodal transfer with boarding within 2 hours is the easiest thing they have to program, and they even screwed that up.

Maybe the clocks on the fare readers are not in sync ?

There didn't seem to be any problem with the clock on the printout Kevin posted. Both the use and the transfer were the same time to the second, and, as pointed out, the L boarding was less than 2 hours before the 2 bus transactions.

[Amtrak41]

That could be the time on the central CPU, not on the field devices.

[jajuan]

That could be the time on the central CPU, not on the field devices.

No the times are in real time from the field devices. When I check my own transit accounts, the times given are indeed the times I actually boarded the buses in question and tapped my card. What would be the point of not using real time of the actual boardings if they hope for this system to work with ideally no glitches and process the correct fare for passengers?

[Amtrak41]

My point is while your account log has the actual time from the CPU, the time on the field device could be way off AND that field device's time setting determined whether or not you get banged for another fare.

[brownliner]

 

It also makes me wonder if Chicago Card and CCP had this issue with reading between CTA interlining.

 

the customer visible report just shows something like:

9/11/2013 10:49 PM CTA Bus -$2.25 $11.75

They must know what farebox that is, which would tell them the bus, which given a time stamp tells them which route, even if it's interlined. Whether they actually get that data to use for something useful, I do not know. Shouldn't be hard, though.

That's also not actually a bus boarding, but going through a portable turnstile at 35th after a sox game, which is why it's $2.25. But I picked this one because the portable fareboxes weren't yet setup to do ventra, the attendant was calling "Cash, Transit Card, Chicago Card, NO ventra". She waved someone with a ventra card through... Don't know if those have gotten ventra readers yet.

[Vinny]

In another brilliant move, I got a repeat of the earlier "Convenience is Coming" email telling me once again that my new Ventra card would be coming in 7-10 days (the previous message came 17 days ago). Rather than showing the "temporary" username and "temporary" password for the Ventra account, it showed my new username and password that I created, but still called them temporary. So usernames and passwords are being sent in unencrypted email, which makes me wonder if they're being stored in the clear.

[jajuan]

My point is while your account log has the actual time from the CPU, the time on the field device could be way off AND that field device's time setting determined whether or not you get banged for another fare.

That still does not negate the fact that Kevin's bus ride is shown to be 40 mins after his L ride, which therefore means he got overcharged when the reader dinged him for a $2 additional fare the same exact second he was charged correctly for a transfer to the bus.

[jajuan]

In another brilliant move, I got a repeat of the earlier "Convenience is Coming" email telling me once again that my new Ventra card would be coming in 7-10 days (the previous message came 17 days ago). Rather than showing the "temporary" username and "temporary" password for the Ventra account, it showed my new username and password that I created, but still called them temporary. So usernames and passwords are being sent in unencrypted email, which makes me wonder if they're being stored in the clear.

At best it shows CTA continues with employees, or in the case of the Ventra rollout partners, who are too darn lax with double checking their own work before moving to the next task.