Ventra - Feedback and Updates

[Busjack]

Yeah but it's like gambling. Half the time your losing money.

I once suggested that to raise money, CTA should put slot machines on the wheel well. Now don't tell me that they took my suggestion for once.

[Amtrak41]

"CTA suspends switchover deadlines for problem-plagued Ventra"

http://www.suntimes.com/23555442-761/cta-suspends-switchover-deadlines-for-problem-plagued-ventra.html

[BusHunter]

I once suggested that to raise money, CTA should put slot machines on the wheel well. Now don't tell me that they took my suggestion for once.

I was wondering why i haven't seen any shell or dice games on the bus lately. Maybe they are betting on whose card will not scan.

On a more serious note, they just had an interesting conversation about Ventra on Chicago Tonight. Cubic says this is the biggest city ventra has rolled out in. They have had rollouts in philly, SF and DC. All those TA's are lucky if they are half the size of Chicago. CTA says "that if Cubic doesn't clean up the Ventra system they are going to stop payment to Cubic, possibly pulling the Ventra contract altogether." (That sounds like NABI ) Cubic says "that there is no way riders will be able to know what is on there cards at the turnstile/farebox. The technology/software does not exist." The Chicago Card does that.

Now is it just me or is this card inferior to Chicago Card? Why doesn't CTA just keep the Chicago Cards and hire a management firm to run that financially? I'm surprised that CTA doesn't order Cubic to refund riders money they have lost. That can be easily proven as all rides are a matter of record. I for one have money that I can't recoup due to the card being improperly registrated. I think this would go a long way towards mending bridges Cubic has burnt. I hope CTA hasn't lost rides because of this.

[Juniorz]

So can we say that Ventra is a good idea, just really a bad execution. CTA/PACE really didn't promote Ventra to a respectable standpoint that made customers aware that this new fare payment system was coming into play. Really Instead of launching Ventra WITH LITTLE NOTICE on August 5th, That should have been the launch date to select customers & the transition point were in now should have been the testing stage to address all the kinks most are experiencing now and launched Ventra on January 19th, 2014 & had the Transition period of Legacy Fares & Ventra parallel each other until May 2014, That way All these problems would have been addressed & Ventra would (and still could be) a success. Admitting the problem was the 1st step in the right direction, now lets how fixing it will correct the wrongs made in this Cubic-Ventra Venture

[MetroShadow]

So can we say that Ventra is a good idea, just really a bad execution. CTA/PACE really didn't promote Ventra to a respectable standpoint that made customers aware that this new fare payment system was coming into play. Really Instead of launching Ventra WITH LITTLE NOTICE on August 5th, That should have been the launch date to select customers & the transition point were in now should have been the testing stage to address all the kinks most are experiencing now and launched Ventra on January 19th, 2014 & had the Transition period of Legacy Fares & Ventra parallel each other until May 2014, That way All these problems would have been addressed & Ventra would (and still could be) a success. Admitting the problem was the 1st step in the right direction, now lets how fixing it will correct the wrongs made in this Cubic-Ventra Venture

I think while I can agree with the card being a good idea, the execution was ridiculous. I think Pace has tried to do what they could given the service area and the buy-in on the suburban areas. The good news is that Cubic has done a fine job with SF (and the registration process is much easier AND the transfers were 10 times as seamless); but dropped the ball here big time.

If anything, the testing period should've been longer, the transition period pushed back to February 2014, and the interface in the software be clearer for the consumer.

I will still contend it is still teething, with a side of bad execution. We'll survive.

[Busjack]

... CTA/PACE really didn't promote Ventra to a respectable standpoint that made customers aware that this new fare payment system was coming into play. Really Instead of launching Ventra WITH LITTLE NOTICE on August 5th,...

Apparently you don't get Chicago TV in Milwaukee. It was promoted enough, and the public rollout was September 9.The problem was that all the "gotchas" came out once it appeared that CTA was using this as a ruse for a fare increase, Cubic wasn't doing its job, and until yesterday, the CTA PR department were saying that everything was o.k. or problems were minimal. Apparently Emanuel finally figured out that the last was hurting him politically.

...

On a more serious note, they just had an interesting conversation about Ventra on Chicago Tonight. Cubic says this is the biggest city ventra has rolled out in. They have had rollouts in philly, SF and DC. All those TA's are lucky if they are half the size of Chicago. CTA says "that if Cubic doesn't clean up the Ventra system they are going to stop payment to Cubic, possibly pulling the Ventra contract altogether." (That sounds like NABI ) Cubic says "that there is no way riders will be able to know what is on there cards at the turnstile/farebox. The technology/software does not exist." The Chicago Card does that.

Now is it just me or is this card inferior to Chicago Card? Why doesn't CTA just keep the Chicago Cards and hire a management firm to run that financially? I'm surprised that CTA doesn't order Cubic to refund riders money they have lost. That can be easily proven as all rides are a matter of record. I for one have money that I can't recoup due to the card being improperly registrated. I think this would go a long way towards mending bridges Cubic has burnt. I hope CTA hasn't lost rides because of this.

• Ventra is a trade name used only in Chicago (e.g. Redeye). There is actually no such business entity as Ventra, only a contract between Cubic and CTA, with MetaBank and First Data in the back office.
• The advantage was that it was supposed to be an open standards system. However, as I noted plenty of times before, CTA has basically negated the value of the bankcard part, and to use BusHunter's gambling analogy, established a fare lottery..
• I don't know what they do in SF. Their website talks about purchasing and putting passes on Clipper Cards, but nothing about the rigamarole to put a transit account on a bankcard. Light rail riders must still purchase a ticket at a TVM if they pay with cash; apparently no equivalent to the Ventra ticket.* Paper fare receipts are used as transfers, although the Clipper Card still can be, and fare receipts are subject to inspection even if you don't transfer. The last couple of points may be more relevant to Metra than CTA, but obviously SF does not have a system even as extensive as the Chicago Card, regardless of what chips MUNI is using in the Clipper Card.
• SEPTA's site says that they are starting to install equipment on buses, but subways, Ls, and regional rail won't be done until late 2014 (faq and timeline). So, unlike CTA, SEPTA did not go whole hog at once.

____________

*Last part of sentence revised after rereading site.

[Busjack]

I did not get any call about it yet from the new calls set up. When I called Ventra the other week, they didn't show my name as having been issued one, so at least someone else doesn't have my card. They simply said cards are scheduled to be mailed this week (which I hear did go out on Monday), and on November 5th. They could not however tell me if my name was on any list as scheduled to be issued a card.

And yes, I do have a balance to transfer which I won't use up before the November 15th deadline. I'm not a daily rider but I loved the convenience of the CCP card and refilling it automatically when it got low without me having to do a thing or keep tabs on the balance.

There were several interesting things in the CTA Press Release, of course, if you can believe them.

Relevant to this question, besides the deadline being put off, is that it says "Coming soon: Ventrachicago.com will allow Chicago Card Plus customers the ability to have their balances transferred online to Ventra by providing their Chicago Card Plus and Ventra card information." Apparently you won't have to wait for the card in the mail and activate that.

Also, it says one can call the CTA 888 number instead of the Ventra one to turn off auto reload, and that Chicago Card Plus will be accepted at balance transfer events to be scheduled..

[Rippler]

I was looking through my online Ventra account more last night and noticed something odd under Order History where it lists the Legacy Order Migration with a "Cancelled" Status about 2.5 hours after originating the order. Now I wonder if they really cancelled it or are they using some odd terminology for the process?

My account summary also shows a 10-digit Transit ID number listed as Status Closed. I assumed that was the card number that was assigned to be sent to me and it shows Closed since I never yet activated the card (since I never received a card).

But after seeing the Cancelled status on the order, now I'm wondering if I'm even scheduled to receive a card at all and if others who haven't yet received their card are showing the same cancelled status.

[owine]

I was looking through my online Ventra account more last night and noticed something odd under Order History where it lists the Legacy Order Migration with a "Cancelled" Status about 2.5 hours after originating the order. Now I wonder if they really cancelled it or are they using some odd terminology for the process?

My account summary also shows a 10-digit Transit ID number listed as Status Closed. I assumed that was the card number that was assigned to be sent to me and it shows Closed since I never yet activated the card (since I never received a card).

But after seeing the Cancelled status on the order, now I'm wondering if I'm even scheduled to receive a card at all and if others who haven't yet received their card are showing the same cancelled status.

I have not seen that verbiage used anywhere. Perhaps they are scrapping the current mailing process in lieu of having people order their cards online or get them from a machine and use the website to activate?

[Busjack]

On the "is this another NABI" question, the latest Tribune article says that Cubic gets paid monthly, and hasn't been paid yet. One would guess that the $454 million tab is something like over 120 or 144 months.

It also indicates that "the lawyers have been called," for CTA to recover fares not registered in the Ventra system.

[BusHunter]

On the "is this another NABI" question, the latest Tribune article says that Cubic gets paid monthly, and hasn't been paid yet. One would guess that the $454 million tab is something like over 120 or 144 months.

It also indicates that "the lawyers have been called," for CTA to recover fares not registered in the Ventra system.

Yes that's exactly how the NABI mess started. It almost sounds like they may intend on recouping losses by going to court. This doesn't sound good for Cubic. It seems we're already past the first step to removal of Ventra off the system. I wonder can CTA sue to recoup losses should they have to transition to a different card. CTa was using it's own vehicles to transport machines and using it's own manpower; CTA has most likely lost revenue because of this and it's infrastructure is now set up to use something that doesn't work. A lawyer can probably have a field day on this case.

[Busjack]

Yes that's exactly how the NABI mess started. It almost sounds like they may intend on recouping losses by going to court. This doesn't sound good for Cubic. It seems we're already past the first step to removal of Ventra off the system. I wonder can CTA sue to recoup losses should they have to transition to a different card. CTa was using it's own vehicles to transport machines and using it's own manpower; CTA has most likely lost revenue because of this and it's infrastructure is now set up to use something that doesn't work. A lawyer can probably have a field day on this case.

We aren't there yet. If one wants to take Emanuel's most recent statement* that it isn't a debacle, that leaves the possibility that Cubic can cure its performance. If you remember from the NABI situation, NABI apparently got about $87 million of its $102 million million contract before CTA decided to withhold payments, and claimed, both when the payments were withheld and after CTA took the buses off the street, that it was going to inspect and fix them, but never did.

Obviously, allowing passengers to board without being able to process their fares is a direct source of damages. The rest you bring up are consequential damages that may result from an effort to scrap the system. The only direct damages would be that and the difference in what Cubic bid compared to what someone else bid (apparently the SEPTA job is being done by Xerox). Maybe any cost CTA incurred in transporting equipment would qualify as direct damages, but anything else would be consequential damages, and tough to recover. IIRC, you asked similar questions about NABI, but the settlement was essentially only for direct damages--the depreciated value of what CTA couldn't use, minus scrap value--not, for instance, the cost of the lease for the 150 NF buses.

If, in fact, CTA hasn't paid anything yet, and all of the equipment is on Cubic's dime, CTA would not have much of a claim, other than for the lost fares.

____

*To put in in mk's terms, did the wrestler leave town because he lost the loser leave town match, or is the reality the reverse? Emanuel may have spoken second, but I bet Claypool did not have the original idea.

[BusHunter]

Of course Emanuel is going to say it's not a debacle. He has reelection to think about. Cubic's rep is quoted in the tribune as saying he doesn't know if he can fix the problems. So if he can't CTA won't pay and the whole case will end in court, but CTA riders will most likely be stuck with the system until a court decision is handed out. How come CTA has all these NABI type scenarios? Doesn't anyone build anything worth it's mustard anymore?

[jajuan]

Well can we see if Cubic actually follow through with fixing the problems before we start predicting court battles or Ventra getting scrapped? From what the mayor and CTA are saying none of those are on the radar at this point.

[Amtrak41]

Do we know of any other open source systems in this country as of yet, other than Ventra and whatever SEPTA is getting ?

The way it will work on SEPTA commuter trains is you will initially be charged the highest fare for your line, then will have to remember to "tap out" when you get to the suburban station short of Zone 4 or NJ to get a pro-rata refund.

[Busjack]

Of course Emanuel is going to say it's not a debacle. He has reelection to think about. Cubic's rep is quoted in the tribune as saying he doesn't know if he can fix the problems. So if he can't CTA won't pay and the whole case will end in court, but CTA riders will most likely be stuck with the system until a court decision is handed out. How come CTA has all these NABI type scenarios? Doesn't anyone build anything worth it's mustard anymore?

Management of contractors is always a problem, and as healthcare.gov proves, not particular to CTA,

But CTA apparently had no problem with New Flyer or Novabus, and Emanuel and Claypool knew that the you know what would hit the fan if the Red Line South project wasn't done on time.

With anything in Illinois, though, the question always is whether the low bidder is qualified or the winner used political influence or bribery to get the job.

Getting back to contract management, at least inspectors hired by CTA found the Bombardier problems, but until yesterday, CTA had the usual response to the Ventra stink of sending out the PR staff to say that everything is fine. At least yesterday it got changed to "well it looks like it is preforming, but we have to do something about the bad customer experience," if you take today's Emanuel comments in context.

[Busjack]

Do we know of any other open source systems in this country as of yet, other than Ventra and whatever SEPTA is getting ?

The way it will work on SEPTA commuter trains is you will initially be charged the highest fare for your line, then will have to remember to "tap out" when you get to the suburban station short of Zone 4 or NJ to get a pro-rata refund.

Something like that was surmised for Metra, but if you think there was a stink over double billing, wait until someone who has a $4.75 fare to Zone D gets charged $8.25 to Zone K, although I suppose that the vast majority of Metra riders use monthly passes.

Metra's interim Executive Director indicated that the conductor would need some sort of on board fare inspection device.

[Busjack]

New one in the Tribune: If you exit through the front door and get too close to the reader, you get charged.

[Busjack]

Well can we see if Cubic actually follow through with fixing the problems before we start predicting court battles or Ventra getting scrapped? From what the mayor and CTA are saying none of those are on the radar at this point.

I mentioned the opportunity to cure.

But, as the Tribune reported, it was Claypool who said he was calling in the lawyers:

"It will be up to the lawyers to review," said Claypool, adding that the CTA doesn't know how much money has been lost. But he said uncollected fares, up to 5 percent of Ventra transactions, represent "an unacceptably high number of instances. … We will look at it, we will quantify it and will work with our lawyers."

[jajuan]

I mentioned the opportunity to cure.

But, as the Tribune reported, it was Claypool who said he was calling in the lawyers:

"It will be up to the lawyers to review," said Claypool, adding that the CTA doesn't know how much money has been lost. But he said uncollected fares, up to 5 percent of Ventra transactions, represent "an unacceptably high number of instances. … We will look at it, we will quantify it and will work with our lawyers."

Calling in the lawyers though is not the same thing as having a blown court proceeding. Don't legal disputes also get worked out in some type of arbitration or other out of court behind the scenes scenario? That's all I'm saying.

[owine]

New one in the Tribune: If you exit through the front door and get too close to the reader, you get charged.

Isn't the Chicago Card just as vulnerable to this...? We're really grasping at straws at this point.

[jajuan]

Isn't the Chicago Card just as vulnerable to this...? We're really grasping at straws at this point.

Right. At this point it's becoming a piling on thing instead of keeping a focus on the actual problems that have been actually proven.

[Busjack]

Calling in the lawyers though is not the same thing as having a blown court proceeding. Don't legal disputes also get worked out in some type of arbitration or other out of court behind the scenes scenario? That's all I'm saying.

No. As the NABI case shows, the judge can call the parties in for pretrial conferences to try to settle things, once the case is filed, but otherwise there has to be an arbitration agreement.

CTA requisitions generally say:

*

i.e. the only option is to go to a court in Cook County.

The only prerequisites may be that the complaint state that a demand has been made and the defendant failed or refused to perform, and the parties went through this process or the defendant refused to do so.

____

*From General Specifications in 7000s requisition.

[jajuan]

No. As the NABI case shows, the judge can call the parties in for pretrial conferences to try to settle things, once the case is filed, but otherwise there has to be an arbitration agreement.

CTA requisitions generally say:

disputes.jpg

disputes2.jpg*

i.e. the only option is to go to a court in Cook County.

The only prerequisites may be that the complaint state that a demand has been made and the defendant failed or refused to perform, and the parties went through this process or the defendant refused to do so.

____

*From General Specifications in 7000s requisition.

Gotcha. But I was speaking of a full blown trial. Sorry about the small confusion of what I meant when I misspoke there.

[BusHunter]

I mentioned the opportunity to cure.

But, as the Tribune reported, it was Claypool who said he was calling in the lawyers:

"It will be up to the lawyers to review," said Claypool, adding that the CTA doesn't know how much money has been lost. But he said uncollected fares, up to 5 percent of Ventra transactions, represent "an unacceptably high number of instances. … We will look at it, we will quantify it and will work with our lawyers."

Yes, but Ventra has overcharged at least 40 percent of the riders. (anyone not using a pass) I doubt riders will ever be repaid for their losses unless they complain to ventra. Is 30 min to an hour on the phone worth a couple bucks? I haven't really seen riders get charged on exit, but I suppose it's possible for a left handed person to get charged because that side of the body is closer to the reader on exit. It doesn't help either that on the NF's the reader is on a grab bar versus closer to the farebox on Novas.