Ventra - Feedback and Updates

[Busjack]

Chase has stopped issuing cards with the touchless stuff. No one uses it, even when both parties support it, and the transaction amount is under the limit. Really, swiping a card just isnt' that hard.

Except the whole point wasn't the choice of swiping or tapping at McDonalds, but that the tap of any RFID card was supposed to be the universal means of paying transit fares (Ventra readers not having swipe slots). But when Chase said that "if Ventra stuck you (such as when people tapped their wallets and the reader found the Chase card before the Ventra card) come to your branch and we'll have it reversed," it is not a surprise that Chase decided not to mess with this.

Anyway, as Kevin previously discussed, the cards with the European style chips are going to supplant the swipe and presumably RFID cards. Kevin previously posted a picture of the readers needed for that kind of card. I noted that Target quickly converted its readers to that type shortly after the hacking, although, surprisingly, Jewel-Osco has not yet.

[brownliner]

 

Except the whole point wasn't the choice of swiping or tapping at McDonalds, but that the tap of any RFID card was supposed to be the universal means of paying transit fares (Ventra readers not having swipe slots). But when Chase said that "if Ventra stuck you (such as when people tapped their wallets and the reader found the Chase card before the Ventra card) come to your branch and we'll have it reversed," it is not a surprise that Chase decided not to mess with this.

Anyway, as Kevin previously discussed, the cards with the European style chips are going to supplant the swipe and presumably RFID cards. Kevin previously posted a picture of the readers needed for that kind of card. I noted that Target quickly converted its readers to that type shortly after the hacking, although, surprisingly, Jewel-Osco has not yet.

 

ventra has nothing to do with the decision to not continue offering the cards. That they cost substantially more than non contactless cards, and no one uses them is. If the readers were everywhere, people might use them. They're not, so you have to pay attention. Easier to just swipe.

EMV supports contactless cards, which are used almost nowhere. Swiping or dipping a card just isn't that hard. And if my experience with contactless cards is typical, they're less reliable than swiping.

[Busjack]

   

ventra has nothing to do with the decision to not continue offering the cards. That they cost substantially more than non contactless cards, and no one uses them is. If the readers were everywhere, people might use them. They're not, so you have to pay attention. Easier to just swipe.

EMV supports contactless cards, which are used almost nowhere. Swiping or dipping a card just isn't that hard. And if my experience with contactless cards is typical, they're less reliable than swiping.

But, because of fraud, the feds say that merchants have to do away with the swipe cards by this time next year (e.g., this article). So, your defense of the swipe card is short lived.

[Kevin]

EMV supports contactless cards, which are used almost nowhere. Swiping or dipping a card just isn't that hard. And if my experience with contactless cards is typical, they're less reliable than swiping.

Used almost nowhere in the US. Europe and even Canada are another story. I was at a Shoppers Drug Mart in Toronto a couple weeks ago and they had to put signs on all the terminals to let people know that contactless wasn't working. Even still, someone tried using it and the cashier had to tell her it was broken.

Mobile payments is where contactless could really take off. Apple's implementation of EMVCo tokenization is arguably more secure then even chip cards, and I'm sure Android will follow suit with a similar implementation soon. The timing is perfect, since almost all new EMV readers also support contactless.

Where this leaves Ventra as an open payment system is unknown. Tokenization means that your actual credit card number is never used. It's replaced with a different number that's assigned to your phone. That number would change if you got a new phone or if the number was replaced by the issuer for any reason. Since Ventra uses solely the card number to track passes or stored fare value, you could be SOL if your number gets changed. Ventra already warns of this possibility when using a bank card.

[jajuan]

Except the whole point wasn't the choice of swiping or tapping at McDonalds, but that the tap of any RFID card was supposed to be the universal means of paying transit fares (Ventra readers not having swipe slots). But when Chase said that "if Ventra stuck you (such as when people tapped their wallets and the reader found the Chase card before the Ventra card) come to your branch and we'll have it reversed," it is not a surprise that Chase decided not to mess with this.

Anyway, as Kevin previously discussed, the cards with the European style chips are going to supplant the swipe and presumably RFID cards. Kevin previously posted a picture of the readers needed for that kind of card. I noted that Target quickly converted its readers to that type shortly after the hacking, although, surprisingly, Jewel-Osco has not yet.

If you're speaking of those black Verifone card readers, yes actually Jewel has begun converting to readers like those seen in Target. The Jewel-Osco a few blocks from where I live has had them since its remodeling a few months ago.

[Busjack]

...

Mobile payments is where contactless could really take off. Apple's implementation of EMVCo tokenization is arguably more secure then even chip cards, and I'm sure Android will follow suit with a similar implementation soon. The timing is perfect, since almost all new EMV readers also support contactless.

Where this leaves Ventra as an open payment system is unknown. Tokenization means that your actual credit card number is never used. It's replaced with a different number that's assigned to your phone. That number would change if you got a new phone or if the number was replaced by the issuer for any reason. Since Ventra uses solely the card number to track passes or stored fare value, you could be SOL if your number gets changed. Ventra already warns of this possibility when using a bank card.

That gets down to the "Ventra app," which Metra demonstrated to the CT Board last week.

Apparently that was developed by NICTD so you could show the conductor that you were paid from Gary to 57th (Aug. Minutes). Update: SunTimes has an article that the Metra board approved a contract with Cubic to develop the app, but it appears to work as I indicated (still need to show the screen to the conductorO.

While someone proved that Google Wallet would interact with Ventra readers, one would now have to assume that that was only for cash fares, not transit accounts (with transfers). Thus, the need for an actual Ventra app.

Since apps are your business, how hard would it be to write one? And does the open system mean everyone is going to need a smart phone to have open access to the L? That doesn't seem that open.

....

Edited, see below.

[Busjack]

If you're speaking of those black Verifone card readers, yes actually Jewel has begun converting to readers like those seen in Target. The Jewel-Osco a few blocks from where I live has had them since its remodeling a few months ago.

I just checked my local Jewel, and they have been changed.

BTW, Kevin O'Connor is at the wheel lathe again, now.

[jajuan]

That gets down to the "Ventra app," which Metra demonstrated to the CT Board last week.

Apparently that was developed by NICTD so you could show the conductor that you were paid from Gary to 57th (Aug. Minutes). Update: SunTimes has an article that the Metra board approved a contract with Cubic to develop the app, but it appears to work as I indicated (still need to show the screen to the conductorO.

While someone proved that Google Wallet would interact with Ventra readers, one would now have to assume that that was only for cash fares, not transit accounts (with transfers). Thus, the need for an actual Ventra app.

Since apps are your business, how hard would it be to write one? And does the open system mean everyone is going to need a smart phone to have open access to the L? That doesn't seem that open.

I'll have to check my local one again, but as of last week it hadn't.

The remodels (I assume you mean the barn board look) has been very erratic. A couple of Jewels near me have been remodeled for about the 3rd time (The Albertson's brown, orange and gold look; the SuperValu wine beer and spirits look, and the barn board look), while a former Dominick's hasn't been touched.

Yeah it started with the remodels. But they've also begun placing new readers within stores that haven't yet gone through a remodel, which New Albertson's has said just about all of the stores will undergo eventually.

[Kevin]

While someone proved that Google Wallet would interact with Ventra readers, one would now have to assume that that was only for cash fares, not transit accounts (with transfers). Thus, the need for an actual Ventra app.

Google Wallet works with a transit account. That's how I pay. The main caveat with Google Wallet is that all of your transactions are processed by Google using a virtual credit card and then subsequently charged to the credit card you associated with Google Wallet. Therefore, your Ventra account is linked to that virtual number and not your actual credit card number. Because you don't have access to the virtual credit card number, you won't be able to register your transit account online if and when Ventra finally allows online registration of bank cards.

Apple Pay is using a far more advanced and secure scheme than Google Wallet, but will suffer from the same limitation as Google Wallet. You won't know the card number (known as a "token" in this case) assigned to your phone, so you won't be able to register your Ventra account online whenever that functionality becomes available.

As with bank cards, the most important thing to keep in mind is that you could loose your remaining value or pass if your card number or token changes for any reason. As tokenization becomes more common, credit card numbers may become more dynamic and subject to more frequent changes.

Since apps are your business, how hard would it be to write one? And does the open system mean everyone is going to need a smart phone to have open access to the L? That doesn't seem that open.

The plan, according to CTA PR, is to eventually add NFC support into the Ventra app: "By early 2016, the app will allow customers to download a virtual Ventra card onto their Near Field Communications-compatible mobile devices, which will allow them to access their Ventra transit accounts to pay for rides on trains and buses directly from the Ventra app by touching the phone or device to a Ventra reader."

This is possible today on Android, but not currently on iPhones. While the newest iPhones now have NFC, Apple is not yet allowing third-party developers to tap into this technology. That could change in the future.

I don't know where credit card and contactless technology will go in the future. Credit card issuers are always looking for ways to reduce fraud. The various technologies available in smartphones could go a long way in helping with that effort.

[Busjack]

Google Wallet works with a transit account. That's how I pay. The main caveat with Google Wallet is that all of your transactions are processed by Google using a virtual credit card and then subsequently charged to the credit card you associated with Google Wallet. Therefore, your Ventra account is linked to that virtual number and not your actual credit card number. Because you don't have access to the virtual credit card number, you won't be able to register your transit account online if and when Ventra finally allows online registration of bank cards.

....

I am still not following how you can have a Transit Account on a Google Wallet, but not be able to register it.

My reference, of course, was to the demonstration about 18 months ago where someone waived a phone with Google Wallet over a Ventra reader and got contact, although was not charged because the Ventra system was not yet active.

...

The plan, according to CTA PR, is to eventually add NFC support into the Ventra app: "By early 2016, the app will allow customers to download a virtual Ventra card onto their Near Field Communications-compatible mobile devices, which will allow them to access their Ventra transit accounts to pay for rides on trains and buses directly from the Ventra app by touching the phone or device to a Ventra reader."

....

After reading that release, I was assuming that the app would do two things at a minimum--let one check and add value to a transit account and use NFID to communicate with the reader.

....

I don't know where credit card and contactless technology will go in the future. Credit card issuers are always looking for ways to reduce fraud. The various technologies available in smartphones could go a long way in helping with that effort.

Which reminds me that the vending machines in a park district facility just changed their dollar slots to a reader with a dollar slot, swipe slot, and RFID symbol, but not a chip and pin slot. Did they goof, or did they figure people were going to buy Muscle Milk using a phone?

[Kevin]

I am still not following how you can have a Transit Account on a Google Wallet, but not be able to register it.

As you know, there are two types of Transit Accounts: registered and unregistered. If you register your Ventra card after purchasing it, then you have a registered transit account. Ventra knows your name, address, and phone number, plus you can manage your account online.

An unregistered transit account means that you can add passes or value at a vending machine, but Ventra doesn't know who you are and you can't manage your account online.

Currently, only Ventra-issued cards can be registered and managed online. Eventually, Ventra will allow any contactless bank card to be registered and managed online. However, this requires that you know the credit card number associated with your Ventra account. With both Google Wallet and Apple Pay, you won't have access to that number and therefore can not register those Ventra accounts. You can manage your account at a vending machine, but not online, and Ventra customer service is not be able to assist you with customer service matters.

[Busjack]

As you know, there are two types of Transit Accounts: registered and unregistered. If you register your Ventra card after purchasing it, then you have a registered transit account. Ventra knows your name, address, and phone number, plus you can manage your account online.

An unregistered transit account means that you can add passes or value at a vending machine, but Ventra doesn't know who you are and you can't manage your account online.

Currently, only Ventra-issued cards can be registered and managed online. Eventually, Ventra will allow any contactless bank card to be registered and managed online. However, this requires that you know the credit card number associated with your Ventra account. With both Google Wallet and Apple Pay, you won't have access to that number and therefore can not register those Ventra accounts. You can manage your account at a vending machine, but not online, and Ventra customer service is not be able to assist you with customer service matters.

But what is the practical mode of operation?

Do you stick a phone at the TVM tap point and the TVM knows to put a transit account on it?

Or are you just saying that one can use a Google Wallet the same as, say, a Citicard Virtual Account Number, i.e. the payee doesn't know your real credit card account number, but somehow you pay to get money onto a Ventra card?

[Kevin]

Do you stick a phone at the TVM tap point and the TVM knows to put a transit account on it?

Or are you just saying that one can use a Google Wallet the same as, say, a Citicard Virtual Account Number, i.e. the payee doesn't know your real credit card account number, but somehow you pay to get money onto a Ventra card?

When I load fare value on my Android phone, I tap the phone to the TVM, select the amount I want to load, and then swipe one of my credit cards to pay. (You can't actually fund the transaction with your phone – only cash or a mag-stripe card.) I can then use my Android phone without being subject to a PAYG fare. The Ventra account is associated with a virtual card number assigned by Google Wallet.

If my fare value runs out, then I'm subject to PAYG fares which get charged to the Google Wallet virtual number. Google then charges the credit card I associated with my Google Wallet account.

[garmon757]

When I load fare value on my Android phone, I tap the phone to the TVM, select the amount I want to load, and then swipe one of my credit cards to pay. (You can't actually fund the transaction with your phone – only cash or a mag-stripe card.) I can then use my Android phone without being subject to a PAYG fare. The Ventra account is associated with a virtual card number assigned by Google Wallet.

If my fare value runs out, then I'm subject to PAYG fares which get charged to the Google Wallet virtual number. Google then charges the credit card I associated with my Google Wallet account.

Do it work on multi-day passes?

[sw4400]

All Jewels have or will be getting the new VeriFone Pinpads, remodeled or not. My store has them and my former store does too. I believe that they are capable of being used with RFID cards, and eventually the Credit Cards with the chips like they have in Europe. I also heard that eventually, they may work with SmartPhones.

[Busjack]

All Jewels have or will be getting the new VeriFone Pinpads, remodeled or not. My store has them and my former store does too. I believe that they are capable of being used with RFID cards, and eventually the Credit Cards with the chips like they have in Europe. I also heard that eventually, they may work with SmartPhones.

Kevin discussed that before. The Pin and Chip card slides in the bottom, while it needs the wave symbol for RFID and phones. I forget which grocery, but they had a clear thing with the wave symbol on top of the VeriFone unit.

[Kevin]

Do it work on multi-day passes?

Yes, you can load either fare value or a multi-day pass just like a Ventra-branded card or bank card.

[Busjack]

When I load fare value on my Android phone, I tap the phone to the TVM, select the amount I want to load, and then swipe one of my credit cards to pay. (You can't actually fund the transaction with your phone – only cash or a mag-stripe card.) I can then use my Android phone without being subject to a PAYG fare. The Ventra account is associated with a virtual card number assigned by Google Wallet.

....

I understand it, but it seems bass ackward, for several reasons.

[Kevin]

Kevin discussed that before. The Pin and Chip card slides in the bottom, while it needs the wave symbol for RFID and phones. I forget which grocery, but they had a clear thing with the wave symbol on top of the VeriFone unit.

Many of the modern payment terminals don't have a separate pad for contactless. Instead, the contactless reader is behind the screen. When a merchant enables contactless support, the wave symbol will appear on the screen.

[Busjack]

Many of the modern payment terminals don't have a separate pad for contactless. Instead, the contactless reader is behind the screen. When a merchant enables contactless support, the wave symbol will appear on the screen.

I guess it is sort of like when I went to Mariano's yesterday, the VeriFone terminal didn't have the keyboard under the plastic shield like most of them, but the person before me had a debit card transaction, and one showed up on the touch screen.

Also, for some strange reason, I didn't feel like having the Vero Gelato.

[Busjack]

Looks like Apple Pay learned a few tricks from Ventra.

[KedziePink]

Looks like Apple Pay learned a few tricks from Ventra.

Whoops! I guess it'll be time for 8.1.1 soon...

[Busjack]

Whoops! I guess it'll be time for 8.1.1 soon...

It was after the update that blocked users from using fingerprint recognition log in.

Maybe to get closer to the topic, the official description sounds pretty similar to how Kevin described Google Wallet, which raises the question whether one wants to tap a TVM to create a transit account there or risk being quadruple charged.

[owine]

Apple in discussions to expand Apple Pay to other application including transit cards. Cubic is specifically called out.

http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/27/iphone-6-nfc-hotel-keycard-more/

For what it's worth, I was able to use Apple Pay to pay a "cash" fare with Ventra with no issues, it operated just as if I tapped my card itself (although my Chase cards also have lost their contactless capabilities). The obvious limitation is linking a device account number with a manageable transit account. I did not try establishing an account with the device account number. Adding my Ventra card to Apple Pay does not work.

[Busjack]

Apple in discussions to expand Apple Pay to other application including transit cards. Cubic is specifically called out.

http://9to5mac.com/2014/10/27/iphone-6-nfc-hotel-keycard-more/

For what it's worth, I was able to use Apple Pay to pay a "cash" fare with Ventra with no issues, it operated just as if I tapped my card itself (although my Chase cards also have lost their contactless capabilities). The obvious limitation is linking a device account number with a manageable transit account. I did not try establishing an account with the device account number. Adding my Ventra card to Apple Pay does not work.

I had seen elsewhere the point in the link in the article to which you refer that some merchants are trying to disable Apple Pay, in favor of their own systems. Apparently, things will not be as universal as what might be possible.

The "Adding my Ventra card to Apple Pay does not work" was an interesting twist, in that it implies that a Ventra card is not a MasterCard, but maybe the implication is that the Ventra Card is not associated with a bank with which Apple has an agreement.