Train Movement in terminals

[Railwaymodeler]

I got on Metra at the Kenosha terminal yesterday, heading south. While the train was sitting in the station, doors open, and loading, it jerked forward (Southward) about six inches for no apparent reason. A passenger apparently fell down, as he was scuffed up and bleeding. Lots of passengers were asking if the train was even safe.

How does this even happen? I ask that as an actual question. I thought the brakes were supposed to be applied while in the station, especially at a terminal. I think it might be a slight downhill grade leaving the station, but I am not sure, and even so, it should not be enough to make the cars move.

It felt like coupler slack, move slightly than jerk to a halt with a loud coupler clunking noise. So I wonder if the locomotive (On the north end of the train) had its independent brakes applied, but the train brakes got put in release, and the cars rolled south by gravity, only to have the locomotive stop them.

Sure seems odd, and kind of unnerving considering a passenger got minor injuries.

[Guest ctafan630]

I got on Metra at the Kenosha terminal yesterday, heading south. While the train was sitting in the station, doors open, and loading, it jerked forward (Southward) about six inches for no apparent reason. A passenger apparently fell down, as he was scuffed up and bleeding. Lots of passengers were asking if the train was even safe.

How does this even happen? I ask that as an actual question. I thought the brakes were supposed to be applied while in the station, especially at a terminal. I think it might be a slight downhill grade leaving the station, but I am not sure, and even so, it should not be enough to make the cars move.

It felt like coupler slack, move slightly than jerk to a halt with a loud coupler clunking noise. So I wonder if the locomotive (On the north end of the train) had its independent brakes applied, but the train brakes got put in release, and the cars rolled south by gravity, only to have the locomotive stop them.

Sure seems odd, and kind of unnerving considering a passenger got minor injuries.

I get on the train in Aurora. What you described above - the jerking movement - happens from time to time after the train pulls in to the station from the yard and set ups to go east to Chicago. It might be a matter of testing the controls after the switch from the engine to the cab car.

[Railwaymodeler]

Since I used to live in Waukegan, and at one time, rode a morning train from Waukegan to Chicago, I can say that I've never seen/felt this happen before. Trains can move very slightly at station stops. Maybe an inch or so and very slowly. Not enough to knock someone down though. What happened felt much more severe. By the other passengers' reactions, I don't think any of them ever experienced this either.The locomotive/cab car thing kind of makes sense, but when they cut out the controls at one end, doesn't that lock everything and unlock in such a way that this doesn't happen? If I remember correctly (And feeling fatigued tonight I likely don't), when they remove the reverser handle from the control stand to lock it, the brakes all have to be on?

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

I used to ride the UP-NW line out from Ogilvie sometimes, and this was somewhat common at stations along the line. Some station stops were smooth, but some would have the train stop and open its doors, but then jerk a little bit.

[trainman8119]

What is happening is slack. Older engineers are better controlling this, mainly because of their freight experience. What is happening is that the engineer is taking off the train brakes and holding it with the independent brake (on the engine side) or parking brake (from the cab car). When the train brakes are released the cars will stretch and then roll depending on grade. Actually Metra trains their new engineers not to do this for the reasons outlined above and also to refrain from using the independent brake on an in service train because of the constant jerking the farther back in the train you get from the engine. The incidents outlined above were from contractor trains and crews.

[Railwaymodeler]

I figured it had something to do with the independent brake being applied and not using train brakes. Kenosha seems to be on a slight grade, so with the locomotive behind the cars, upgrade, the cars roll.

Was on the same train earlier, felt like a slight roll, then a hard crash as the couplers tightened. Was sitting second car from the rear. Cab car was the only car in front of the one I was in.

Unrelated, I heard the engineer blast a series of quick blasts of the horn, figued someone or something was on or near the track, braced myself for an emergency brake application. Thankfully that was not needed. With my back hurting, a sudden stop would be very painful.

[Railwaymodeler]

It is definately independent brake applications. The train that leaves Kenosha at 2:49PM heading south, is the same one that heads north and gets into Kenosha around 6:30PM. Coming north earlier, approacing Kenosha, right as I was standing up, we hit some rough slack run-in, couple other passengers already standing almost fell. Hurt my back a bit, though with herniated disc and also degenerative disc, and cool damp weather, that wasn't so hard to do.

Considering calling Metra, and telling them they may need to talk to the engineer about which brake to use. Not meaning to complain, but they may want to address it before it becomes a bigger issue. After all, a man got a bit scuffed up Monday, and this could easily get ugly with the way some people sue over the smallest thing anymore.

[Railwaymodeler]

Update to this ongoing thing. Right before I was going to get on the train yesterday, the same 2:49 PM departure from Kenosha, the cars moved. I went over to look at the trucks, saw the brakes were not applied.

I talked to a crew member briefly, who was verbally abusive about the issue. He told me that I have no business telling the engineer how to do his job, also claiming the "engineer took his foot off the brake" (Do I really need to go into what's wrong with that picture here?), and when I mentioned being a safety issue, he told me my safety would be in danger if I did not shut up.

I noticed another passenger was watching, kind of had a smile on his face. Got on the train, he got on after me and told me the train moved unexpectedly like that in the station a couple weeks ago, got injured from it. I told him to document it, and file a complaint with Metra.

Now to find where I put my GCOR book.

[sw4400]

Update to this ongoing thing. Right before I was going to get on the train yesterday, the same 2:49 PM departure from Kenosha, the cars moved. I went over to look at the trucks, saw the brakes were not applied.

I talked to a crew member briefly, who was verbally abusive about the issue. He told me that I have no business telling the engineer how to do his job, also claiming the "engineer took his foot off the brake" (Do I really need to go into what's wrong with that picture here?), and when I mentioned being a safety issue, he told me my safety would be in danger if I did not shut up.

I noticed another passenger was watching, kind of had a smile on his face. Got on the train, he got on after me and told me the train moved unexpectedly like that in the station a couple weeks ago, got injured from it. I told him to document it, and file a complaint with Metra.

Now to find where I put my GCOR book.

You should've got his name and/or badge number, called the Kenosha P.D as well as Metra to file a complaint. Give them the train run number or engine number, however trains are assigned on Metra lines so they'll stop the train and remove the crew member. That is a threat of assault and I think any Police Dept. will act on that.

[Busjack]

You should've got his name and/or badge number, called the Kenosha P.D as well as Metra to file a complaint. Give them the train run number or engine number, however trains are assigned on Metra lines so they'll stop the train and remove the crew member. That is a threat of assault and I think any Police Dept. will act on that.

The employee is an employee of Union Pacific, not NICRC (Metra). Maybe Metra would take care of it, though.

[Railwaymodeler]

Most of the crew members do not have nametags. There's probably a reason for this. Unfortunately I am very, very bad at describing people. "Ah, I think he was a carbon-based life form, human. Beyond that, can't decribe him". Now if people came with four or six wheel trucks, roof top cooling fans, right hand water sight glasses, that sort of thing, then that I can describe from memory very well.

This is also the sort of thing that maybe, kinda makes me think I should finally get myself a cell phone.

[See Tea Eh]

Certainly sounds like the conductor was a jerk, but I'm thinking the motion you're describing could be the brake test they perform at the start of every run. Before departure from the terminal, the engineer has to do a set and release, more formally known as a Class II brake test. This is done to ensure continuity of the brake line between the engineer's control stand and the rear of the train.

When the brakes are released, if the train is on a grade, the cars can move slightly. The whole train isn't in danger of moving, because it's still held in place either by hand brakes or an independent brake, but individual cars (if not held by hand brakes) may move a few inches.

I'll agree that it's a potential safety matter for passengers to be boarding/alighting a train while this is happening. In fact, it's against the rules for even a crewmember to board/alight moving equipment, so if the cars are rolling (even if only a couple of inches, they're still technically moving), they probably shouldn't allow passengers on or off. Maybe this means they should close the doors for the 20 or so seconds it takes to do the brake test, then open them up again once it's done.

[Railwaymodeler]

That could be the case, but two questions come to mind:

Wouldn't it make more sense to do that before boarding passengers? They have plenty of time to do so.

And:

How long would the brake shoes stay released? I would assume they'd reapply the brakes after that test, but they were not. Plus I'd assume I'd also hear some kind of sound from the brake cylinders and rods, but heard nothing. Only thing I did hear was him telling off a couple girls, who apparently do not carry cash (Not a bad idea in some places), and asked if they could pay by credit card on the train.

Regardless of anything else, if a passenger mentions the cars rolling as being a safety issue, threatening the passenger is just not the right way to handle it. Why not try explaining it's a brake test or something. Even the dismissive "I'll tell the enginner" is a better way to handle it.

[See Tea Eh]

On a passenger train (6-8 cars or so), the whole thing can usually be done in 30 seconds to a minute or so (long freight trains will take a bit longer as it can take a while for the air to build up to release the brakes). I don't know if UP has a specific rule about when they should do it, but the only legal requirement is that it get done some time before departure.

Sometimes you might hear the brakes in action, sometimes not. It really depends on the car, where you are, your hearing, ambient noise, etc.

[Railwaymodeler]

Common sense would dictate to not do a brake test while the train is boarding. I've witnessed a man get scuffed up because of that (I mentioned this in the beginning of the thread), and another passenger has told me he was hurt (To a much lesser degree it sounded like) from this same problem.

If those are the two I know of, and I ride that train between once and three times a week, there's probably more out there.

I'll probably be on that train today too, maybe tomorrow as well. Computer repair work in Waukegan.

[artthouwill]

I thought the general rule was to not allow boarding until 20 minutes before a train was scheduled to depart. Thus boarding on an 8:20 out of Aurora would start at 8:00 a.m. If the train is already sitting in the station, why couldn't the brake test be done before 8:00 .am.? If the train is just pulling into the station, why not perform the test before boarding?

I've boarded at the end of the line in Aurora, Joliet, University Prk, South Chicago, and Waukegan. Aurora trains are operated by BNSF and Waukegan trains are operated by UP. The rest are Metra operated. I've noticed the brake test only on the BNSF and UP trains. I don't recall any such test on the Metra operated lines, nor do I recall brake tests on any line, diesel or electric, Metra or contractor operated, in any of the downtown terminals AT ALL. Perhaps if those tests are performed, its done before boarding starts, considering the volume of passengers boarding downtown.

[Busjack]

.. Perhaps if those tests are performed, its done before boarding starts, considering the volume of passengers boarding downtown.

I don't know about the other lines, but usual on the Milw District is that the train pulls into Union Station and usually pulls out on the return trip about 10 minutes later. They plug in the head end power, but don't seem to do much else. Maybe the train gets checked out in Fox Lake, or if stored in the Western Yard, there.

[See Tea Eh]

A brake test is definitely performed prior to departure from each terminal. That much is mandated by federal regulation.

Whether or not a passenger notices it is a different matter.

[Railwaymodeler]

Kenosha might be more noticeable because unlike Waukegan, where most trains on this line terminates, the station tracks appear to be on a slight downhill grade. Which means they might do brake tests while loading in Waukegan, but no one notices.

[trainman8119]

As see tea eh stated, any passenger train MUST (actually any train) have some sort of a brake test prior to departure. Passengers may board while a class II (set and release on the rear car) test is done. A class I or IA test will be done on an empty train. These tests must be done prior to leaving a terminal. On the Milwaukee, even on the 10 minute turns, when the engineer gets from the cab to the engine, he will do a brake test whether in service or just departing to the yard.

AS I STATED BEFORE what you have is slack. The train is being held by the parking/independent brake, either in the engine itself in the pull mode or the cab on the push end. When the parking/independent brake is applied, the engine/cab car will not move, but there will be slack and potential for the train to move slightly forward or back depending on how the train stopped or if there is a grade. So, of course, if you look at the brake shoes on the trailing cars they may be away from the wheels, if the engineer releases them, choosing to hold the train with the independent or parking brake.

As for the conductor, definitely a jag bag. That said, there is nothing more annoying than a passenger telling us how to do our jobs. Whether it is a brake test or collecting tickets. If I was having a bad day, I might jump on you too. If not I may actually explain it to you.

As for ratting out the guy, all you would need would be the train number or departure time from Kenosha or wherever and make your report.

[sw4400]

As see tea eh stated, any passenger train MUST (actually any train) have some sort of a brake test prior to departure. Passengers may board while a class II (set and release on the rear car) test is done. A class I or IA test will be done on an empty train. These tests must be done prior to leaving a terminal. On the Milwaukee, even on the 10 minute turns, when the engineer gets from the cab to the engine, he will do a brake test whether in service or just departing to the yard.

AS I STATED BEFORE what you have is slack. The train is being held by the parking/independent brake, either in the engine itself in the pull mode or the cab on the push end. When the parking/independent brake is applied, the engine/cab car will not move, but there will be slack and potential for the train to move slightly forward or back depending on how the train stopped or if there is a grade. So, of course, if you look at the brake shoes on the trailing cars they may be away from the wheels, if the engineer releases them, choosing to hold the train with the independent or parking brake.

As for the conductor, definitely a jag bag. That said, there is nothing more annoying than a passenger telling us how to do our jobs. Whether it is a brake test or collecting tickets. If I was having a bad day, I might jump on you too. If not I may actually explain it to you.

As for ratting out the guy, all you would need would be the train number or departure time from Kenosha or wherever and make your report.

Well, whether or not he was right for possibly complaining to the crew member about the train moving while loading/unloading(I think he was given the mention by the other passenger that he got hurt when that happened a couple of weeks ago at a station while boarding/exiting), you got to look at this line carefully...

and when I mentioned being a safety issue, he told me "my safety would be in danger if I did not shut up."

This in any aspect, is just wrong to say. If we had a spill in an aisle with broken glass and I was trying to get another job done in store for my boss and a customer made mention to me about it and kept on me saying it was a safety issue and needs to be taken care of now, and I told her "her safety would be in danger if she did not shut up.", what do you think would happen to my job when she contacts the Store Manager about my response to her?

The best thing this crew member could've said was "I'll let him know about it." or "Ok, I'll talk to him." The passenger wouldn't have felt threatened and who knows, maybe the crew member would've just mentioned on the side to the engineer about that.

The brake test may be SOP, trainman8119, but I think that crewman could've handled that way better than he did.

[Railwaymodeler]

Trainman, there is a major difference between pointing out a potential safety issue, and telling someone how to do their job. Regardless, threatening someone in either case is still equally wrong. Remember as a passenger train crew member, working with the public, you get all kinds of people, with their own demeanors and attitudes. Threatening a passenger is never an appopriate way to handle anything.

I am also very uncomfortable on a train where a brake test, or whatever it may really be, results in passenger injuries, and the crew choose to threaten a passenger who points out a concern about the cars moving when they really shouldn't. Metra's in enough trouble most of the time, I can just imagine a passenger suing over an injury from sudden unexpected movement while boarding in a terminal. I hope that does not happen, but at this rate, that is a very real possibility.

[trainman8119]

Trainman, there is a major difference between pointing out a potential safety issue, and telling someone how to do their job. Regardless, threatening someone in either case is still equally wrong. Remember as a passenger train crew member, working with the public, you get all kinds of people, with their own demeanors and attitudes. Threatening a passenger is never an appopriate way to handle anything.

I am also very uncomfortable on a train where a brake test, or whatever it may really be, results in passenger injuries, and the crew choose to threaten a passenger who points out a concern about the cars moving when they really shouldn't. Metra's in enough trouble most of the time, I can just imagine a passenger suing over an injury from sudden unexpected movement while boarding in a terminal. I hope that does not happen, but at this rate, that is a very real possibility.

Agreed, threatening is never an alternative...that is why I gave the info on how to report someone and 312-322-6777...Metra Passenger Services. As for passengers suing, that is nothing new. The only thing that would come of that would be doing the work on empty trains....then people would be whining that they have to wait out in the cold or heat, depending on the season. You just can't ever win.

[Busjack]

...The only thing that would come of that would be doing the work on empty trains....then people would be whining that they have to wait out in the cold or heat, depending on the season. You just can't ever win.

They could stay in the station. The last I heard, all Metra terminals have them.

[Railwaymodeler]

Kenosha doesn't. We have a roof over the platform, but very little else.

I don't think I mentioned it, but there's a reason this whole thing is such a concern to me. I have degenerative disc in my back, and also a herniated disc. Plus arthritis in my left knee, and a bad right shoulder.

Especially with winter, I fear slipping and falling, and am afraid that train might move as I am getting on. As bad as my joints are, I am afraid I could be seriously injured, like if I fall, which I have personally seen happen to another passenger, could I end up with an even worse back problem, or paralyzed? I don't want to find out the hard way. If I were healthy, I'd probably not think much about the train moving.