BYD Unveils First All Electric Articulated Bus In L.A.

[BusHunter]

Kind of an interesting news story I happened upon. BYD unveiled their first all electric articulated bus in LA last month.

Also Interesting they have established a manufacturing/assembly line in Lancaster, California. (LA county) so they would qualify as a buy america bus.

http://insideevs.com/byds-articulated-electric-bus-los-angeles-video/

Looking at another BYD video of the bus in operation in NYC, I notice the operator opens the doors by pushing a button. The buses seem to have good acceleration, but they sure are boxy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqwuTKjMabc

[Busjack]

This was foreshadowed at the time of the CTA 7900s procurement when someone said BYD was bidding* but all that was on the web at that time was that BYD was a Chinese company that was working on a battery bus.

The page to which you linked had some specifications about charging, and while I can't figure out all the nMs and kw, 2-3 hours in the garage doesn't seem that bad, if the bus is going to be in the garage overnight.

As far as the 60 foot bus looks, it doesn't look any different, streamlining wise, than the NABI BRTs LA already has.

Note also that in the LA video, BYD is promising an electric garbage truck, which sort of makes sense.

__________

*A couple of politically connected consultants signed in to the meeting as BYD, but at the time it didn't appear that BYD had any U.S. Transit product. Apparently it now does.

[BusHunter]

This was foreshadowed at the time of the CTA 7900s procurement when someone said BYD was bidding* but all that was on the web at that time was that BYD was a Chinese company that was working on a battery bus.

The page to which you linked had some specifications about charging, and while I can't figure out all the nMs and kw, 2-3 hours in the garage doesn't seem that bad, if the bus is going to be in the garage overnight.

As far as the 60 foot bus looks, it doesn't look any different, streamlining wise, than the NABI BRTs LA already has.

Note also that in the LA video, BYD is promising an electric garbage truck, which sort of makes sense.

__________

*A couple of politically connected consultants signed in to the meeting as BYD, but at the time it didn't appear that BYD had any U.S. Transit product. Apparently it now does.

Someone said that the BYD charging system would allow you to charge multiple buses in a facility at the same time and that was unique. I don't know maybe the way the system is setup now, you can only charge a few buses versus a small fleet?

[Busjack]

Someone said that the BYD charging system would allow you to charge multiple buses in a facility at the same time and that was unique. I don't know maybe the way the system is setup now, you can only charge a few buses versus a small fleet?

The issue is how many amps can you push at how many volts (assuming the batteries can take them). Sure, one could build a big enough substation to do that. For instance, the Tesla one does 80 amps at 240 volts, but it takes 6 hours to charge the car.

Nobody has said what the CTA setup was other that the grant included two chargers. If it isn't the pantograph one NF demonstrated in Canada, maybe it is one charger per bus.

[briman94]

The issue is how many amps can you push at how many volts (assuming the batteries can take them). Sure, one could build a big enough substation to do that. For instance, the Tesla one does 80 amps at 240 volts, but it takes 6 hours to charge the car.

Nobody has said what the CTA setup was other that the grant included two chargers. If it isn't the pantograph one NF demonstrated in Canada, maybe it is one charger per bus.

The official Tesla supercharging stations charge it from empty to full in about a half hour.

[NewFlyerMCI]

... but they sure are boxy.

One of the best types of bus shells! I love the purring sound the bus emits, CTA could use some of these! It seems like NY gets everything first, all imo

[Busjack]

The official Tesla supercharging stations charge it from empty to full in about a half hour.

As the C&D article noted, they had to string up chargers on utility poles. Do you have the ratings on the "official" ones?

[briman94]

As the C&D article noted, they had to string up chargers on utility poles. Do you have the ratings on the "official" ones?

I don't know the actual voltage/amperage ratings on them. All I know is that they are able to fully charge a car in a half hour; I'd imagine it's higher than 240V though...

[Busjack]

One of the best types of bus shells! I love the purring sound the bus emits, CTA could use some of these! It seems like NY gets everything first, all imo

It probably depends on who gets the grants and who bid on the specs CTA put out. At the time, we thought some company like Proterra would be responsive, and were surprised that NF got the contract.

Most Google references are only copies of the BYD Press Release, which says that BYD and MTA concluded a successful two month pilot test, but doesn't say anything about MTA buying the bus, while the release does say that BYD has contracts with Long Beach and LA County. The MTA news item indicates that this is only one of a series of tests of various manufacturers' products. About the only thing these references indicate is that the MTA test was about a year before CTA started testing 700 and 701, which it bought.

[Busjack]

I don't know the actual voltage/amperage ratings on them. All I know is that they are able to fully charge a car in a half hour; I'd imagine it's higher than 240V though...

Looking at the specs in the link in BusHunter's post, it looks like 417 amps at 480 volts (watts=amps*volts) for the BYD chargers to charge the bus in 2-3 hours, and that 2 100 kw chargers are hooked up to one articulated bus.That's a lot of juice.

[BusHunter]

It probably depends on who gets the grants and who bid on the specs CTA put out. At the time, we thought some company like Proterra would be responsive, and were surprised that NF got the contract.

Most Google references are only copies of the BYD Press Release, which says that BYD and MTA concluded a successful two month pilot test, but doesn't say anything about MTA buying the bus, while the release does say that BYD has contracts with Long Beach and LA County. The MTA news item indicates that this is only one of a series of tests of various manufacturers' products. About the only thing these references indicate is that the MTA test was about a year before CTA started testing 700 and 701, which it bought.

The way BYD is setup, they must be banking on selling electric buses mostly to the west coast operators. I don't think MTA is really interested in hybrid buses or electric buses anymore. MTA which did purchase 5 Designline Ecosaver IV's came out and said that the pilot bus failed and they got Designline to give them their money back. Here's a link to that story

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2011/02/03/end-of-the-designline-for-new-buses/

So sometimes it is better to wait to see how the buses perform in other markets. CTA could have easily got pulled into that whirlwind if they would have bought some. I don't know what was there report on the one here, but the bus just seemed too lite for heavy city operation. Maybe for a hotel bus or golf course or tour bus maybe.

MTA seems to not want to have anything else to do with hybrids (see link below) they are even going as far as replacing hybrids with diesel engines, so it can be done. This is kind of interesting considering we are on the verge of a hybrid bus rehab coming up in 6-9 months.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/06/30/green-fail-new-york-metra-gives-up-on-hybrid-busses/

[Busjack]

...

MTA seems to not want to have anything else to do with hybrids (see link below) they are even going as far as replacing hybrids with diesel engines, so it can be done. This is kind of interesting considering we are on the verge of a hybrid bus rehab coming up in 6-9 months.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/06/30/green-fail-new-york-metra-gives-up-on-hybrid-busses/

As indicated in the article, 1677 hybrids. In New York's case those were the Orion VII BAE series hybrids. Maybe the real reason that CTA scrapped the 900s is that while they were ISE systems, they probably had the same electric motors. Not such a good sign if the motors in the electric buses are about the same.

However, the reports on the San Francisco and Seattle hybrids was that they were getting the BAE system from New Flyer. An article from out there indicates SF is having problems, too.

On the other hand, the Allison system does not rely on the electric motors for all traction.

[jajuan]

The way BYD is setup, they must be banking on selling electric buses mostly to the west coast operators. I don't think MTA is really interested in hybrid buses or electric buses anymore. MTA which did purchase 5 Designline Ecosaver IV's came out and said that the pilot bus failed and they got Designline to give them their money back. Here's a link to that story

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2011/02/03/end-of-the-designline-for-new-buses/

So sometimes it is better to wait to see how the buses perform in other markets. CTA could have easily got pulled into that whirlwind if they would have bought some. I don't know what was there report on the one here, but the bus just seemed too lite for heavy city operation. Maybe for a hotel bus or golf course or tour bus maybe.

MTA seems to not want to have anything else to do with hybrids (see link below) they are even going as far as replacing hybrids with diesel engines, so it can be done. This is kind of interesting considering we are on the verge of a hybrid bus rehab coming up in 6-9 months.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2013/06/30/green-fail-new-york-metra-gives-up-on-hybrid-busses/

Given the hybrid angle comes from the late right wing conspiracy fanatic Andrew Breitbart's media page, I suspect there may be more to it than MTA doesn't want hybrids anymore. Busjack alludes to one possibility, that being apparent problems with getting series hybrid engines to work few technical problems. As it stands these days, most of the conservatives that seem to be speaking on any environment related issues on a national scale are those who are becoming more ultraconservative on those issues to the point of sounding like right wing fanatics in their pushes to deny and flat out ignore the very science behind why TAs may want to lean toward CNG, hybrid or electric powered buses, or at the very least purchase diesel buses that continue using diesel of increasingly lower sulfur content as the years pass as well as let out emissions that leave less of a carbon footprint on the atmosphere.

But looking at how so many TAs in west coast locations tend to purchase more CNGs, electric trolley buses and hybrids more than they tend to turn to full diesel buses, it's a logical leap to think that BYD may be looking to bank more on the west coast TAs since their specialty seems to be concentrated on electrically propelled buses.

[BusHunter]

As indicated in the article, 1677 hybrids. In New York's case those were the Orion VII BAE series hybrids. Maybe the real reason that CTA scrapped the 900s is that while they were ISE systems, they probably had the same electric motors. Not such a good sign if the motors in the electric buses are about the same.

However, the reports on the San Francisco and Seattle hybrids was that they were getting the BAE system from New Flyer. An article from out there indicates SF is having problems, too.

On the other hand, the Allison system does not rely on the electric motors for all traction.

I like the article on the bus that crapped out during the Mayors press conference and ride.

http://www.sfweekly.com/2013-06-26/news/muni-electric-buses-ed-lee/

But 1,900 miles is a long way to go. I don't know if this was before the opening of the west coast NF assembly plant. But the bottom line is a new car or bus shouldn't fail. They said they had 5 that didn't make it due to mechanical problems out of 50. That's 10 percent of the buses failing on delivery. That's like a red herring.

BTW, all those interested in how the bus delivery system works will be happy to read the man hours a driver can drive the bus as well as a percentage of what moves by flatbed versus driving and why that's done.

[andrethebusman]

Actually only one bus (3563) was rebuilt as a straight diesel, and the idea was abandoned as too expensive. However, several of the oldest have had their lead-acid batteries replaced by lithium-ion batteries. This is going to be their ultimate undoing - batteries have a finite life after which they will not charge up and must be replaced, a VERY expensive proposition. You can figure the NYCTA hybrids will run 12 years, and not a day longer.

[Busjack]

....

But looking at how so many TAs in west coast locations tend to purchase more CNGs, electric trolley buses and hybrids more than they tend to turn to full diesel buses, it's a logical leap to think that BYD may be looking to bank more on the west coast TAs since their specialty seems to be concentrated on electrically propelled buses.

Southern California uses CNGs because since the late 90s, the TAs were under court orders that transit was a constitutional right, and CARB orders on air pollution.

Actually having contracts from LACMTD and Long Beach may have induced BYD to put a factory there, just like having a contract with LACMTD induced or compelled NF to have an assembly center there. What is surprising is that Long Beach purchased 10 and LA "up to" 25, when most other tests are 2-3 buses. For instance CTA didn't announce that it just appropriated $30 million for 25 battery buses to make sure that the Loop Link was environmentally friendly.

Update: The SF writer is obviously an SF liberal (stressing BAE's military background, like someone here stressed Cubic's), but there seems to be a unanimity on both sides of the political spectrum that these buses don't work.

Also:

1. Re Andre's post, unless the Chinese really have come up with a better battery, the only difference between a series hybrid and battery bus is that the series hybrid has a diesel engine to charge the batteries.
2. Re BusHunter's point: Remember when a 900 (for reporters) broke down while the Olympic Committee was in Chicago? Update: However, the article to which I linked said at the end that it was an Allison hybrid that couldn't be started.

[Busjack]

Yahoo! article that BYD is upping its battery production, has both bus and battery plants in California, and has backing from Berkshire Hathaway.

Maybe there is competition in response to my comment "if Elon Musk can figure out how to make a battery with the energy content of 120 gallons of diesel." If we believe the wrap on the LA bus, BYD is about 40% there.

[BusHunter]

It seems BYD, which stands for "build your dreams" is trying to bring it's Chinese extra cars to the US, they announced yesterday that they are going to test their vehicles with Uber here in Chicago with it's E6's. They seem to be the first real competitor to the Tesla and I believe they have the only 4 door/crossover electric vehicle in existence. Their prices aren't too bad either at 35K, that's basically the price of a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt and they offer the space of a crossover vehicle. They claim to sell them at Green Wheels USA here in Chicago. Interesting.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/13/us-uber-byd-idUSKBN0M92KU20150313

[Busjack]

It seems BYD, which stands for "build your dreams" is trying to bring it's Chinese extra cars to the US, they announced yesterday that they are going to test their vehicles with Uber here in Chicago with it's E6's. They seem to be the first real competitor to the Tesla and I believe they have the only 4 door/crossover electric vehicle in existence. Their prices aren't too bad either at 35K, that's basically the price of a Nissan Leaf or Chevy Volt and they offer the space of a crossover vehicle. They claim to sell them at Green Wheels USA here in Chicago. Interesting.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/03/13/us-uber-byd-idUSKBN0M92KU20150313

As indicated in the article, they are trying to get the drivers to buy the cars, as distinguished from Chicago taxi companies that own the cars and lease them to the drivers. Thus, the question will be how many individual drivers buy them as their personal cars, which probably depends on how good a warranty BYD provides.

[Busjack]

Green Wheels USA links to a cars.com review, but from several years ago. While it points out that the BYD is about the size of a CR-V, it was then kind of crude and the service manual was in Chinese, and the recharger was Chinese spec. Maybe they have worked out the bugs in the past two years, but as I noted above, the Uber test will need to show that the car meets the needs of the ultimate consumer.