600-series Proterra BE40/ZX5 - Updates

[Busjack]

CTA just posted an RFP for up to (45) Low Floor, (40) Foot, All-Electric Transit Buses and the Design-Build and Installation of up to (13) En-Route Charging Stations and Associated Spare Parts.

[Busjack]

11 minutes ago, Busjack said:

CTA just posted an RFP for up to (45) Low Floor, (40) Foot, All-Electric Transit Buses and the Design-Build and Installation of up to (13) En-Route Charging Stations and Associated Spare Parts.

This is one of those procurements where the specifications are on CD, so we won't find out anything on the website.

[Kevin]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

This is one of those procurements where the specifications are on CD, so we won't find out anything on the website.

Can I get it on 100 3.5-inch floppies instead?

[Busjack]

8 minutes ago, Kevin said:

Can I get it on 100 3.5-inch floppies instead?

You'll have to ask Maria Biszewski, although being in the IT business, you'll be hard pressed to find a computer that can read them.

If one wants to really go down this road, one could ask why it isn't on a thumb drive.

[Busjack]

34 minutes ago, Tcmetro said:

Press release says late 2018 delivery. 

http://www.transitchicago.com/news/default.aspx?Month=&Year=&Category=2&ArticleId=3703

That Press Release also says "CTA will purchase an additional 20-30 all-electric buses in 2018."

BTW, I had said that I thought CTA was giving the feds the business in saying that the electric buses will replace 17 year old polluting buses in 2019, but now it looks like it will be the case.

[BusHunter]

4 hours ago, Busjack said:

CTA just posted an RFP for up to (45) Low Floor, (40) Foot, All-Electric Transit Buses and the Design-Build and Installation of up to (13) En-Route Charging Stations and Associated Spare Parts.

Hmm up to 45 sounds like alot. Must be an option for 15 cause they state 25-30 are coming in 2018. Now I question this RFP. If it is indeed an RFP how can they state a late 2018 arrival for the buses if a manufacturer has yet to sign on the dotted line? En route charging stations sound good and all, but if #700 was involved in a garage fire at a charging station who will put out a fire at the en route charging station? I wonder if there's such a thing as a en route charging station with fire extinguishing equipment that can automatically try to put out a fire like a sprinkler system, foam system or something?

I don't know if up to 70 buses (both procurement contracts) are enough to retire the #6400's, but if routes like #54A and #205 bite the dust, they might be able to retire the fleet cause the fleet count will fall at fg and np.

[BusHunter]

Here is a #600s delivery and assignment list. Right now it's a wip (last updated 9/1/22)

A demo bus came to CTA along with the pilot below both buses tested before delivery started on the order. There would be two different models ordered a model called BE 40 Catalyst, which would be the first 6 buses, followed by the ZX5, (final 17 buses) which is the current model Proterra produces. The former Catalyst and Ecoride brands are no longer being built (Ecoride last year 2015, Catalyst last year 2020) So with this purchase there are 2 different models. Photos of the BE 40 Catalyst demo are below 

(Photos courtesy of members Mr.NewFlyer1051 for the top photo, Shannon CVPl for the bottom photo)

#600  (pilot) delivered 10/19?,  first ran in service 3/26/21 on 66

(photos courtesy of member CTA 9537)

#601 delivered week of 11/19/19 first ran in service 5/14/21 on 66

#602 delivered week of 11/19/19, first ran in service 3/23/21 on 66

(Both photos courtesy of YoungBusLover)

#603 delivered week of 11/19/19, first ran in service 3/25/21 on 66

#604 delivered week of 11/19/19, first ran in service 4/16/21 on 66

(Photos all courtesy of $100KBusOperator)

#605 delivered early 1/20, first ran in service 4/2/21 on 66

(Photo courtesy of member $100KBusOperator)

Before delivery of the ZX5 Proterras, another demonstrator which was a ZX5 came to CTA around March 2021 and tested

(Both Pictures courtesy of member YoungBusLover)

#606 (2nd pilot) delivered around 6/6/21, first ran in service 2/4/22 on 66

#607 (2nd pilot) delivered around 6/6/21, first ran in service 2/12/22 on 66

(Both photos courtesy of member YoungBusLover)

#608 (2nd pilot) delivered around 6/6/21,  first ran in service 2/4/22 on 66

#609 delivered 11/4/21

#610 delivered 11/6/21

#611 delivered 11/6/21

#612 delivered 11/6/21; first ran in service 8/26/22 on the #66

#613 delivered 11/6/21; first ran in service 8/29/22 on the #66

#614 delivered 11/6/21

#615 delivered 11/11/21

#616 delivered 11/11/21

#617 delivered 11/11/21

#618 delivered 11/18/21

#619 delivered 11/18/21; first ran in service 9/1/22 on the #66

#620 delivered 11/18/21

#621 delivered week of 12/3/21

#622 delivered week of 12/3/21

 

 

[BusHunter]

If the airlines are so worried about batteries combusting the FAA is considering banning them on commercial flights then there must be something to battery combustion. Bad thing about it is soon it will be in most cars. Definitely taking the fire coverage insurance if I get one.

[Busjack]

7 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

If the airlines are so worried about batteries combusting the FAA is considering banning them on commercial flights then there must be something to battery combustion. Bad thing about it is soon it will be in most cars. Definitely taking the fire coverage insurance if I get one.

Better not get brakes or tires, either, as one or the other caused a fire on 4333.

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Now I question this RFP. If it is indeed an RFP how can they state a late 2018 arrival for the buses if a manufacturer has yet to sign on the dotted line?

 

2 hours ago, BusHunter said:

It takes a year roughly to manufacture new buses unless they piggyback an existing contract. That's really the only way they can say x amount of time cause a firm contract exists. 

Rereading the press release, you made me respond to a red herring. The press release says "CTA will purchase an additional 20-30 all-electric buses in 2018" It does not say that they will be delivered in 2018.

I deleted my two responses.

[strictures]

8 hours ago, Busjack said:

CTA just posted an RFP for up to (45) Low Floor, (40) Foot, All-Electric Transit Buses and the Design-Build and Installation of up to (13) En-Route Charging Stations and Associated Spare Parts.

I'm baffled by the "en-route charging stations".  Does that mean the buses might need recharging during a run or does it mean charging up at the terminals?

 

[Busjack]

10 minutes ago, strictures said:

I'm baffled by the "en-route charging stations".  Does that mean the buses might need recharging during a run or does it mean charging up at the terminals?

 

I think the distinction is from the current CTA situation, where the chargers are in the garages.

In descriptions of other operations, such as using Proterra buses, the chargers are at layover points. The buses can "top off" in 10 minutes, as opposed to CTA buses having to go back to the garage after reaching their range of about 85 miles.The battery capacity (whether 85 or 125 miles) is not affected by the manor of charging. For instance, if electric buses are put on 124, a charger could be put in the Union Station Transit Center.

The Proterra site description of both methods is here.

[BusHunter]

1 hour ago, Busjack said:

 

Rereading the press release, you made me respond to a red herring. The press release says "CTA will purchase an additional 20-30 all-electric buses in 2018" It does not say that they will be delivered in 2018.

I deleted my two responses.

Yeah, Yeah.... LOL!! I swear i didn't read that earlier, CTA has changed press releases in the past. Maybe they changed this one. Not saying I'm wrong or I'm right. I'm just amused with your background that you admit that. So these aren't being delivered until 2019-20??? By then we'll have autonomous cars or maybe buses LOL!! (Tesla has some good Youtube videos on their autopilot which is it's autonomous car feature)

[Busjack]

2 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Maybe they changed this one.

They hadn't from when I quoted it 6 hours ago.

[BusHunter]

1 minute ago, Busjack said:

They hadn't from when I quoted it 6 hours ago.

Well TCMetro sure thinks he read it the way I saw it. It's not a big deal. I have seen CTA change press releases in the past though when there were mistakes in it. That's why I mention it. Why then did you say you chased a red herring when it was only me that chased a red herring. Hmm..... Maybe there's more editing going on than meets the eye....

[strictures]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

I think the distinction is from the current CTA situation, where the chargers are in the garages.

In descriptions of other operations, such as using Proterra buses, the chargers are at layover points. The buses can "top off" in 10 minutes, as opposed to CTA buses having to go back to the garage after reaching their range of about 85 miles.The battery capacity (whether 85 or 125 miles) is not affected by the manor of charging. For instance, if electric buses are put on 124, a charger could be put in the Union Station Transit Center.

The Proterra site description of both methods is here.

OK, that makes sense, but even a 10 minute top off is going to cause delays if the bus is late to the layover, as so many are.

[Tcmetro]

4 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Well TCMetro sure thinks he read it the way I saw it. It's not a big deal. I have seen CTA change press releases in the past though when there were mistakes in it. That's why I mention it. Why then did you say you chased a red herring when it was only me that chased a red herring. Hmm..... Maybe there's more editing going on than meets the eye....

To clarify, the press release said that the 25 Novas are coming in late 2018.

The new electric buses are also noted as part of "Rahm's plan for all the buses to be new, despite the fact that they are counting 12 year old NFs as new". They also note the previous Nova purchases, 100 articulated buses, the rehabs, and the two (now one I guess) electric buses. 

[Busjack]

13 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Well TCMetro sure thinks he read it the way I saw it.

As he pointed out, he didn't. You mixed up the Novas with the electrics. At least I admitted that you led me astray, as well as in the other topic that I missed the Nova agenda item.

[Busjack]

12 hours ago, strictures said:

OK, that makes sense, but even a 10 minute top off is going to cause delays if the bus is late to the layover, as so many are.

That's a good point. Looks like the bus needs adequate recovery time in its schedule, has to run on less than full charge, or will become perpetually late. The original Proterra materials referred to a small downtown shuttle, where the 10 minute layover was no big deal. Obviously, the issue is different on the usual Chicago bus route.

[jajuan]

On 10/17/2017 at 0:52 PM, BusHunter said:

Hmm up to 45 sounds like alot. Must be an option for 15 cause they state 25-30 are coming in 2018. Now I question this RFP. If it is indeed an RFP how can they state a late 2018 arrival for the buses if a manufacturer has yet to sign on the dotted line? En route charging stations sound good and all, but if #700 was involved in a garage fire at a charging station who will put out a fire at the en route charging station? I wonder if there's such a thing as a en route charging station with fire extinguishing equipment that can automatically try to put out a fire like a sprinkler system, foam system or something?

I don't know if up to 70 buses (both procurement contracts) are enough to retire the #6400's, but if routes like #54A and #205 bite the dust, they might be able to retire the fleet cause the fleet count will fall at fg and np.

On your point about replacing remaining 6400s, the elimination of #54A and #205 would mainly effect FG as FG operates more runs on #205 than NP does. NP's looks to handle trips on that route more as rush hour and school trips. FG does most of the rest. A combination of future Novas and electrics would still make a dent in what's left of the 6400s though.

And yeah we know it's a definite through the existing Nova contract on next year's purchase because the press release gave the mayor the chance to get out in front of another CTA announcement.

[BusHunter]

17 hours ago, Tcmetro said:

To clarify, the press release said that the 25 Novas are coming in late 2018.

The new electric buses are also noted as part of "Rahm's plan for all the buses to be new, despite the fact that they are counting 12 year old NFs as new". They also note the previous Nova purchases, 100 articulated buses, the rehabs, and the two (now one I guess) electric buses. 

I guess cta is going back to 15 year old buses. They claim a rehab buys them 6 years so with the nf rehab they should make it 18 years. Dont know how they expect an 17 year old nova bus unrehabbed to make it but in a way they are better than the new buses. What bus would you take out on a 100 degree day? When they do the #1000 replacement it will probably be nf unless they want A six year contract. No one can do 1000 buses in 3 years that I know off. That's about a bus a day. They could do two different manufacturers like the tmc and flxible orders in 1990. 

[Busjack]

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

Dont know how they expect an 17 year old nova bus unrehabbed 

They got some sort of rehab.

3 hours ago, BusHunter said:

When they do the #1000 replacement it will probably be nf unless they want A six year contract. No one can do 1000 buses in 3 years that I know

You missed several thngs here. They have to be competitively bid. If  you are making a capacity argument in favor of NF, the 2017 budget says some NFs will have to be rehabbed again, due to capital funding constraints. Finally, the feds don't allow 6 year bus contacts.

[BusHunter]

So how can they deliver? That would disqualify them from bidding.

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, BusHunter said:

So how can they deliver? That would disqualify them from bidding.

No it wouldn't. First, your delivery schedule is flawed (as I noted above with respect to some 1000s getting a second rehab). Second, CTA would have the option that it used in 1990 and NY MTA uses now--split the order among manufacturers. Any specification that said 1000 buses in 3 (or even 5) years would undoubtedly be protested.

[BusHunter]

No it wouldn't and for two bids you need two contracts. If nf wasn't one of them who is left gillig?