Electrified BNSF line?

[Elkmn]

How hard would it be to 3rd rail electrify the BNSF metra route? Given that the BNSF route is already super popular, and that the stop spacing is comical, it seems that electrification has been a long time coming. I suggest 3rd rail because BNSF uses double stack trains and they could use that as an excuse for no overhead wires, and in some fantasy world, it would be semi-feasble to run trains into the 'l' loop. The only real problem is that the line is almost entirely at grade and someone who might be visually impaired or mentally ill could wander on the tracks and electrify themselves, but this doesn't seem to be a big problem on the 'l'. 

[Sam92]

3 minutes ago, Elkmn said:

How hard would it be to 3rd rail electrify the BNSF metra route? Given that the BNSF route is already super popular, and that the stop spacing is comical, it seems that electrification has been a long time coming. I suggest 3rd rail because BNSF uses double stack trains and they could use that as an excuse for no overhead wires, and in some fantasy world, it would be semi-feasble to run trains into the 'l' loop. The only real problem is that the line is almost entirely at grade and someone who might be visually impaired or mentally ill could wander on the tracks and electrify themselves, but this doesn't seem to be a big problem on the 'l'. 

Never gonna happen. Also ME uses overhead and double deck trains with no issue. The most electrification that would happen is the battery electric trains that are being looked at but never would they waste time putting 3rd rails nor wires up for a line. 

[Elkmn]

This always happens when I think about crazy infra projects on metra and get excited. I gotta realize that freight railroads are genuinely awful and neatly that any metra electrification would require massive changes to freight railroads that metra couldn't afford. *Sigh*

[Busjack]

4 hours ago, Elkmn said:

This always happens when I think about crazy infra projects on metra and get excited. I gotta realize that freight railroads are genuinely awful and neatly that any metra electrification would require massive changes to freight railroads that metra couldn't afford. *Sigh*

Other than whether Metra can afford it, it doesn't own the tracks--BNSF (i.e. Warren Buffet) does. While some federal money has gone into private railroads on which Metra has trackage rights, Metra doesn't even control the operation on the BNSF. When the New Yawk juvenile posted the same point, he ignored a report  to which he linked *saying that freight railroads won't electrify. (Note that that report said that BNSF and Wabtec were working on a battery electric locomotive.)

As @Sam92 pointed out, it won't be third rail, for additional reasons that the line is the main Burlington freight route with several working yards, and it runs at grade through various high-population suburbs. It's bad enough there are various grade crossing accidents; wait until some child  gets fried on the tracks. In fact, after the Lee case, I don't see how CTA gets away with at-grade third rail, or removing the cyclone fence gates at Maple and Isabella on the Purple Line (pitting rubber pyramids between the tracks, instead).

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[Smolensk]

Whenever there is a major snow storm or extended polar vortex, the Metra Electric and South Shore Lines shut down.  Sure, the diesel lines have delays of various kinds, but they keep running.

I think reliability of transit counts for something, no matter how wonderful electric trains are.

[jajuan]

On 4/7/2024 at 11:32 AM, Sam92 said:

Never gonna happen. Also ME uses overhead and double deck trains with no issue. The most electrification that would happen is the battery electric trains that are being looked at but never would they waste time putting 3rd rails nor wires up for a line. 

 

On 4/7/2024 at 3:26 PM, Busjack said:

Other than whether Metra can afford it, it doesn't own the tracks--BNSF (i.e. Warren Buffet) does. While some federal money has gone into private railroads on which Metra has trackage rights, Metra doesn't even control the operation on the BNSF. When the New Yawk juvenile posted the same point, he ignored a report  to which he linked *saying that freight railroads won't electrify. (Note that that report said that BNSF and Wabtec were working on a battery electric locomotive.)

As @Sam92 pointed out, it won't be third rail, for additional reasons that the line is the main Burlington freight route with several working yards, and it runs at grade through various high-population suburbs. It's bad enough there are various grade crossing accidents; wait until some child  gets fried on the tracks. In fact, after the Lee case, I don't see how CTA gets away with at-grade third rail, or removing the cyclone fence gates at Maple and Isabella on the Purple Line (pitting rubber pyramids between the tracks, instead).

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@Busjack got at the most important part of why we wouldn't see electrification of the line. Metra doesn't own the tracks. Caltrain just finished electrifying its line last month between San Francisco and San Jose-Tamien stations, which is the portion not owned by Union Pacific, and has been testing its new EMU train consists along the line for the last few months. Most of those tests that I've seen posted by California train and transit fans on YouTube have been speed tests done at or just under the trains' days top speed.

They'd been planning electrification since 1992. That's gets into the other main reason why we wouldn't see Metra electrify the line. Between the haggling and back and forth Metra and RTA would have to do with local and state government as well as getting a green light and funding from the feds, it takes too damn long to get these types of extensive projects off the ground. Just look at the Red Line extension project to 130th Street. CTA has been proposing the extension and playing around with different alternative potential rights of way for at least as long many as many of us have been members of this forum across both its original iteration on the previous website that founding member Kevin had created and the present form we're all communicating in now. They're just now finally getting out planning fantasyland and into solid commitments and plans to build. Put another way, my adult niece who's now in her early 20s was still practically a kindergartner at the time that we were in those early years of CTA's proposals for the project, and we were discussing possibilities with many of us making very credible points then that CTA wasn't likely to get this done. As I recall, they were also still in the midst of proposing other things like Orange to Ford City, Blue Line to Elmhurst and Blue Line from Forest Park to Mannheim Road.

[Elkmn]

Yeah, so that's out of the question. Are there any metra lines that metra owns track of that are worth electrification? Maybe the Milwaukee district or the rock island?

[Busjack]

2 minutes ago, Elkmn said:

Yeah, so that's out of the question. Are there any metra lines that metra owns track of that are worth electrification? Maybe the Milwaukee district or the rock island?

RI (Beverly branch) is getting the battery trainsets.

While Metra owns the Miw Dist., it is still subject to CPKC trackage rights and heavy freight traffic.

If anything would make sense, it might be UP-N, but that's not happening, either.

[Elkmn]

if metra could easily get money, would they put up catenary on the beverly route?

[Busjack]

8 minutes ago, Elkmn said:

if metra could easily get money, would they put up catenary on the beverly route?

My answe aboveimplies no. They just spent $186 M for the BEs.

[Sam92]

5 hours ago, Elkmn said:

if metra could easily get money, would they put up catenary on the beverly route?

 

6 hours ago, Busjack said:

RI (Beverly branch) is getting the battery trainsets.

While Metra owns the Miw Dist., it is still subject to CPKC trackage rights and heavy freight traffic.

If anything would make sense, it might be UP-N, but that's not happening, either.

Also cantenary for just one line limits fleet flexibility, and is prone to wires snapping 

[NewFlyerMCI]

On 5/5/2024 at 3:08 PM, Elkmn said:

if metra could easily get money, would they put up catenary on the beverly route?

It's likely no, but notably, the Stadler BEMUs they are getting can easily have a pantograph added and be converted to a standard EMU. And while @Sam92's point about fleet flexibility is valid, I'll also note that it's wouldn't be an unusual for Metra since they have the MED, and the RI is already operationally separate from the rest of the system. But yes, still very unlikely.

[Busjack]

13 hours ago, NewFlyerMCI said:

It's likely no, but notably, the Stadler BEMUs they are getting can easily have a pantograph added and be converted to a standard EMU. And while @Sam92's point about fleet flexibility is valid, I'll also note that it's wouldn't be an unusual for Metra since they have the MED, and the RI is already operationally separate from the rest of the system. But yes, still very unlikely.

But why, if Metra has paid for the BE power units, then pay for catenary, unless something very unforeseen happens?

Also, in response to a NY juvenile's question on when Metra is going to electrify, I said 1927. Similar to my comment about another transit pundir, it didn't build the ME; it bought it from the IC. It wasn't later going to convert a lakefront line to diesel.

[NewFlyerMCI]

11 hours ago, Busjack said:

But why, if Metra has paid for the BE power units, then pay for catenary, unless something very unforeseen happens?

I’m only mentioning that they have the capability to convert to EMU in the unlikely event they decide to electrify all or a portion of the RID, not speculating that they will do that, which is why I started and ended my response with saying that they are unlikely to electrify

[busfan2847]

On 5/8/2024 at 8:49 AM, Busjack said:

But why, if Metra has paid for the BE power units, then pay for catenary, unless something very unforeseen happens?

Also, in response to a NY juvenile's question on when Metra is going to electrify, I said 1927. Similar to my comment about another transit pundir, it didn't build the ME; it bought it from the IC. It wasn't later going to convert a lakefront line to diesel.

Electrifying part or all of the Beverley Branch would allow the batteries to be recharged while the train is in service, extending the number of hours the trains could remain in service.

[Busjack]

21 minutes ago, busfan2847 said:

Electrifying part or all of the Beverley Branch would allow the batteries to be recharged while the train is in service, extending the number of hours the trains could remain in service.

But the whole point was one charger for the pantograph to contact in the yard. While the Stadler videos show the BE FLIRT running on some partially electrified lines, the stories, such as this one state that  Germany is relying on fixed chargers. Stadler article Keeping going when the catenary ends: the FLIRT Akku

[busfan2847]

30 minutes ago, Busjack said:

But the whole point was one charger for the pantograph to contact in the yard. While the Stadler videos show the BE FLIRT running on some partially electrified lines, the stories, such as this one state that  Germany is relying on fixed chargers. Stadler article Keeping going when the catenary ends: the FLIRT Akku

Germany is not relying on fixed chargers.

"The batteries are charged when the trains are operating on sections of route with 15 kV 16·7 Hz electrification and at stations fitted with overhead catenary. DB Netz is spending €40m to install electrification ‘islands’ totalling 11 km on selected routes by December, which will reduce the longest unelectrified gaps to less than 80 km."

They are filling in gaps of the electrified system with "islands" to allow the trains to recharge in service, while running.