Destination Signs

[trainman8119]

Does it drive anybody else nuts how poor the destination signs are. For all the technology involved, you would think that you could get a sign that actually can tell you where you might be going.

I hate it when you read a sign that says:

"56 Milwaukee...Jeff Blue Li"...or

"62 Dear/Kinzie"

And that is if they are working to start with. It is a disgrace how many don't work at all.

As much as the LED's are considered more feasable to make buses interchangable between garages, I really miss the old curtain signs. They seemed to be more reliable and at least gave you a more detailed idea of where a bus was going. Maybe they wouldn't move buses so much and save a buck if they had to change the rolls. They use enough paper on the windshields with the signs being out anyway. Ho hum !!

[Busjack]

The nonworking ones are, of course, a disgrace, and you see, especially on 14 and 26, nearly new buses with paper signs. Mechanically, I don't know if it is a hardware problem with the signs, or a programming problem with either the signs or the Clever Devices system that sets them.

I hate it when you read a sign that says:

"56 Milwaukee...Jeff Blue Li"...or

"62 Dear/Kinzie"

This is remdiable, and seems a throwback from when the flip dot signs had a limited number of characters on a line, and CTA's policy that the route be on the first sign and the destination on the second (although they have stepped away from it). Bus lines generally seem too lazy to program the LED signs to their full potential. It is possible, as indicated by Hammond Transit, to program the sign with several transistions indicating all points of interest on the route, such as 1N RABIN TRANSIT CENTER/1N BISHOP NOLL ECT/1N HAMMOND S. SHORE/1N WHITING/1N 106-EWING CTA (or something like that). Maybe they have enough memory to so program the signs, since Hammond only has 6 routes. Pace did something similar on routes 422 and 423 (422 OLD ORCHARD/422 GLENVIEW 422/NORTHBRK CT) although I am having an e-mail feud with their customer service because some of the runs will not display that sign. Again, I don't know if the problem is that the driver consistently uses the wrong sign, or the Intelligent Bus System on some runs isn't properly programmed to select it.

Also, with the new programming systems, they could use icons to indicate that a bus goes to a train station, for instance, but don't.

{I previously had a comment about

145 GRACE-LK SHORE, when the schedule and audio indicated that the bus goes to Clarendon/Montrose, but the schedule now posted says that Grace is the destination and has an effective date of August 29, 2004. I didn't save stuff to see what, if anything changed.}

While the curtain signs could show more information, once they put the routes on the front sign, the destinations seemed scrunched on two lines to the right. This became more unreadable when they went (in 1976) from all caps to caps and lower case. Only the 1979 RTA Flxs had large enough signs to accommodate all the information. Apparently the D901s could have had large signs, but most of the sign area was blanked out. I also assume that the real old curtain signs, in the form of

62 ARCHER DOWNTOWN, were because it was too costly to change a curtain sign if the downtown terminal were slightly moved.

This gives me a real throwback idea. Since each sign is separately programmable, and to reduce flipping, why not just put the destination in front and the route on the side?

Finally, does anyone know why CTA went from Twinvision signs on the 6400s to Luminator on the 7500s? It seemed as though the Twinvisions were more versatile, especially as to character size and lower case.

[trainman8119]

I like the idea of the destination on the front and the route on the side. One thing I have learned about the transit business is if it makes sense, it'll never happen.

As for the "Archer Downtown"....at least you knew it was going someplace downtown.

Pace for awhile with the Orion VI's used 2 lines on their signs with no filpping...but I have not seen to many those signs lately. It could be used on the 208, in both directions, for example, but they have gone to the flipping.

[Busjack]

Pace changed 208 and 250 Evanston Davis CTA as trainman8119 said, even though it wasn't necessary to reprogram those signs after the restructuring. They also changed 210 Glenbrook Hospital from a two line sign, but did add the flip for either via Lincoln or via Cicero and Pratt. Unchanged is the 270 Glenbrook Hospital. What is strange on that one, is that on the express runs, only the second line flips (270 GLENBROOK HOSPITAL to 270 GLENBROOK EXPRESS).

Also, for a misleading CTA sign, 14 JEFFERY EXPRESS/14 MADISON JEFF, implying that it goes to Madison and Jeffery, instead of Madison and Jefferson. Why they didn't leave the second sign 14 NW STA is beyond me.

[geneking7320]

On the issue of digital signs,

What do you folks think of multiple displays as on the Pace NABI 6200s and Muni's buses in San Francisco? On another forum I have suggested CTA show route number and destination as I have seen on Pace route 290.

[trainman8119]

I have not seen the San Francisco buses, but, again, the idea of the actual destination being displayed on the sign is what I am after...example:

56 JEFFERSON PARK L

29 NAVY PIER

14 OGILVIE STATION

How about "156 BELMONT-HALSTED" instead of the "wonderfully accurate" "156 LASALLE/BELMONT (flip) HALSTED". To me that looks like the Route is La Salle-Belmont that goes to Halsted instead of La Salle that goes to Belmont-Halsted.

[Busjack]

On the issue of digital signs,

What do you folks think of multiple displays as on the Pace NABI 6200s...? On another forum I have suggested CTA show route number and destination as I have seen on Pace route 290.

I'm not sure what you mean here, as Pace is now completely inconsistent with regard to its destination signs (South and West tend to show route names, while Southwest and Northwest don't, and you have aberrations like the 422 and 423 signs mentioned earlier, or 272 GOLF MILL/TO HAWTHORNE, which, before the flip on 2300s and 2400s, implies that the bus is going to Golf Mill instead of from there). I wasn't in favor of Pace not including route names, because one time I almost got on a 213 NORTHBRK CT in Evanston, when I wanted a 212 (because I was going to downtown Northbrook), but, with the elimination of 212, that particular problem doesn't exist any more.

[geneking7320]

Hi;

Your examples are exactly what I am talking about.

Also, the Pace NABI 6200s I've seen have destination signs on the drivers side of the bus too. It should be noted Muni Neoplan and NABI buses have a rear window and a destination sign is located there also.

I have not seen the San Francisco buses, but, again, the idea of the actual destination being displayed on the sign is what I am after...example:

                     56 JEFFERSON PARK L

                      29 NAVY PIER

                      14 OGILVIE STATION

How about "156 BELMONT-HALSTED" instead of the "wonderfully accurate" "156 LASALLE/BELMONT (flip) HALSTED". To me that looks like the Route is La Salle-Belmont that goes to Halsted instead of La Salle that goes to Belmont-Halsted.

[geneking7320]

Busjack is right, Pace divisions are inconsistent in there use of destination signs. I do like how the northwest division handles it on #290 by showing the route number and destination only.

[Busjack]

Also, the Pace NABI 6200s I've seen have destination signs on the drivers side of the bus too. It should be noted Muni Neoplan and NABI buses have a rear window and a destination sign is located there also.

I now understand what you mean, but the only time I saw an advantage to the left side destination sign was at the Elgin terminal, where the left side of the southbound buses faces the waiting room.

[trainman8119]

I don't see much use for the destination signs on the driver side at all. All it seems to tell me is that the bus I may want to ride is going by me...because the only way I am going to catch it if it is on the street (as opposed to a terminal) is to run out into traffic to cross before it leaves the bus stop.

To me, that is another way to waste money...just like the bike racks. If the CTA were to have them, they would probably be blank, with a piece of paper under it with handwriting of the route number or something.

[RIPTA42]

How about "156 BELMONT-HALSTED" instead of the "wonderfully accurate" "156 LASALLE/BELMONT (flip) HALSTED". To me that looks like the Route is La Salle-Belmont that goes to Halsted instead of La Salle that goes to Belmont-Halsted.

That's arguably acceptable, since the 156 makes stops along Belmont from Sheridan to Halsted.

One really bad flip is Pace's "225 JEFFERSON/225 PARK CTA". Is the 225 an express to Jefferson St in the West Loop? And "PARK CTA" Pace's recommendation for how the RTA could better allocate funding across the service boards?

"22 CLARK/22 HOWARD RED L" is annoying. The Purple L and Yellow L should be insulted. "HOWARD CTA" would make a lot more sense.

The first time I saw the "GET IN THE/GO LANE!!!" PR messgae, I only caught the last part of it. I thought one of the teams at Lane Tech made it to the finals. "GET I|/GO LA" on the rear sign is really helpful, too.

[geneking7320]

Pace #290 gets it right by saying "HOWARD CTA" and "CUMBERLAND CTA".

I think the biggest hoot is the following sign:

97 DEMP YELLOW L

Seen on route 97 Skokie buses.

[Busjack]

One really bad flip is Pace's "225 JEFFERSON/225 PARK CTA".  Is the 225 an express to Jefferson St in the West Loop?  And "PARK CTA" Pace's recommendation for how the RTA could better allocate funding across the service boards?

Just about all the Jefferson Park feeders (226 and 270) have basically the same sign. Originally they were JEFF PARK (over) CTA STATION, and I believe that the 270 Express is still that, except CTA STATION flips with EXPRESS.

"22 CLARK/22 HOWARD RED L" is annoying.  The Purple L and Yellow L should be insulted.  "HOWARD CTA" would make a lot more sense.

The HOWARD RED L makes sense if it is a southbound bus, but not necessarily for the ones having Howard as a north terminal (this also includes 147). Some buses at other stations also aren't primarily there to interchange with the L, such as 55, 59 and 63 at Midway, and 29 at State. In the old days, they didn't have the yellow roll sign indicating Rapid Transit [the destination was HOWARD-HERMITAGE or CLARK-HOWARD], and I believe that State is still 29 STATE-95th, not 29 STATE/95-Red Line.

"Howard CTA" doesn't seem to work as well on a CTA bus as a Pace one. Maybe take another Pace and Hammond approach, and call it Howard Transit Center. [Krambles would call it an intermodal center, but that would never fit or be understood on a sign.]

The Clever Devices sign does say to XFER to RED YELLOW PURPLE lines.

Pace #290 gets it right by saying "HOWARD CTA" and "CUMBERLAND CTA".

I previously noted that 290 is very inconsistent, with such signs as 290 CENTRAL to FARGO LOOP, indicating that it is a Central Avenue or Central Road bus.

[trainman8119]

In the old days of the roll signs, express routes were in red, and for a long time, anything that had to do with an "L" station had some sort of yellow. For you real old timers, Limited routes were in green.

I remember some old Flxible new looks (8500's) had the destination sign that was white on black:

76 Logan Square

Rapid Transit

Buses that came out of Logan Square were either:

76 Diversey-Harlem if the bus was routed on Diversey

If the bus operated via Wrightwood out of Logan Square, the sign was a little backwards:

HARLEM VIA WRIGHTWOOD ROUTE 76

Again, all of these signs told you were you were going. The side signs simply had the route number and name, so you knew what bus you were on. Seeing as how many of the LED signs don't work (I counted 7 outside of Union Station this morning on Adams street) maybe they should go back to using that method of the route number and name on the side. At least there would be $$$ savings in paper usage.

[Busjack]

 

If the bus operated via Wrightwood out of Logan Square, the sign was a little backwards:

          HARLEM VIA WRIGHTWOOD ROUTE 76

I remember that kind of sign on the depot routes (1, 2, 38, 151, 156, 157) in the early 70s, but didn't know they were used elsewhere. But, I guess that would make sense, since Diversey was then run as part of the Boulevard System. I had asked in another group about the origin of this style, and it apparently was introduced by the CTA in the late 1950's. Usually "Route" would be above the number:

NORTHWESTERN ROUTE

VIA DREXEL

STATION 1

[Busjack]

For you real old timers, Limited routes were in green.

I have in my den a side roll sign of 1974 vintage, that CTA sold off in 1976, with 63 LIMITED on a green background. I don't think that route was in service by then.

[RIPTA42]

"Howard CTA" doesn't seem to work as well on a CTA bus as a Pace one. Maybe take another Pace and Hammond approach, and call it Howard Transit Center. [Krambles would call it an intermodal center, but that would never fit or be understood on a sign.]

True, I wasn't thinking about the fact that the bus itself is CTA, and to say it's going to "CTA" doesn't make sense. I was also thinking that "L" was poor way of abbreviating "Line" (as in JEFF BLUE LINE), not L as in "the 'L'."

The Clever Devices sign does say to XFER to RED YELLOW PURPLE lines.

Speaking of the automated system, the announcement at the west end of the 92 is "Jefferson Park," with no mention of the Blue Line. At the east end, it announces "Berwyn Red Line, Transfer to Red Line." .

[MetroShadow]

PACE South and Southwest is quite efficent on the signage which at times make sense, but others it doesn't. For Example:

382 104-Pulaski

Via Central

349 S. Western

to 79th St.

349 S. Western (Flip) Harvey TC

381 Dan Ryan L

381 Morraine

Valley Coll

379/382/383/384/385 Midway CTA

As for 352 and 359, their signage is far different since its either a "limited" or "express" route (from Harvey).

-------------------------------------------------------

Keep in mind that with Northwest/North Shore, 210 (before the realignment) was a little off with their signs, although it was straightforward:

210 EXPRESS to

MICHIGAN AV.

210 GLENBROOK

HOSPITAL

210 WESTERN CTA

210 GLENBOOK (flip) HOSPITAL (flip) LINCOLNWOOD

-or-

210 WESTERN CTA (flip) LINCOLNWOOD

_______________________________________________

215 is about right:

215 HOWARD CTA

215 OLD ORCHARD

_______________________________________________

And they've made an improvement on 290:

290 Central Ave. (that's so noone would get confused with Central to Fargo Loop Anymore)

[geneking7320]

I'm curious about the destination signs for routes 3 and 29 both served by the 77th Garage. The southbound King Dr. local needs two messages:

3 KING DR

3 TO 95TH

Whereas the southbound State St. bus needs only this:

29 STATE - 95

If you can get the message in one viewing it's a plus.

[Busjack]

384 and 386 reinforce what I don't like about some Pace signs--not indicating the route, especially since both have the same two terminals: Orland Square and Midway CTA. 384 short turns indicate 111-Ridgeland, but the two routes are not otherwise distinguished as being via Ridgeland or Harlem, and it sure makes a difference if you are getting off at somewhere other than the terminals. I previously mentioned a similar complaint with regard to 212 and 213 at Evanston, but 212 is now dead.

The 384 and 386 situation is more aggravating, in that the routes are interlined and come about the same time to Orland Square; thus you might see a bus that arrives as 386 ORLAND SQUARE and not note that its sign flipped to 384 MIDWAY CTA (although Pace does seem to have a pattern of changing the sign a bit before arriving at the terminal).

[Busjack]

I'm curious about the destination signs for routes 3 and 29 both served by the 77th Garage. The southbound King Dr. local needs two messages:

      3 KING DR

      3   TO 95TH

Whereas the southbound State St. bus needs only this:

      29 STATE - 95

There really isn't a good explanation for this difference. CTA maps always say that the sign flips from the route to the destination, but that isn't consistent. Some may be a legacy from when a sign could only display 15 characters, but that doesn't justify the distinction here.

[sw4400]

What confuses me is when a Bus reads the following....

80 Irving Park

80 to Harlem

Via Blue Line

Why does it say Via "L color" Line?

The "L" trains sometimes confuse me too. I remember two such instances. The first is the North/West Bound Brown Line trains going to Kimball have the Brown destination signs that say "Kimball" on the roller curtain, but going back to the Loop, all the roller curtains had Orange destination signs that said "Midway" on them.

The second time I was waiting for a Kimball bound "L" train at Addison. For those who ride the Brown Line, you know this line uses the 3200 Morrison-Knudsen trains and the 2600 Budd trains. Well, when my train arrives, it is a six-car 2400 Boeing-Vertol train with Kimball roller curtains. That has been the only time I've seen a 2400-Series car on the Brown Line since I started using it about a year and a half ago.

[Busjack]

The second time I was waiting for a Kimball bound "L" train at Addison.  For those who ride the Brown Line, you know this line uses the 3200 Morrison-Knudsen trains and the 2600 Budd trains.  Well, when my train arrives, it is a six-car 2400 Boeing-Vertol train with Kimball roller curtains.  That has been the only time I've seen a 2400-Series car on the Brown Line since I started using it about a year and a half ago.

It was probably a Ravenston; check out chicago-l.org for details.

[trainman8119]

geneking7320 Wrote:

I'm curious about the destination signs for routes 3 and 29 both served by the 77th Garage. The southbound King Dr. local needs two messages:

3 KING DR

3 TO 95TH

Whereas the southbound State St. bus needs only this:

29 STATE - 95

----------------------------------------------------------------

I believe Cicero Ave does the same thing in that it displays:

54 Cicero-24.

I also saw another dandy one today in Park Ridge. How about this:

68 NW HWY (flip)

PARK RIDGE CNW

Huh ???? The CNW has not been the CNW for about 15 years...it has been the Union Pacific. Maybe the CTA should take a note from Pace here and display PARK RIDGE METRA.