Circle Line / Gray Line

[Mike Payne]

39 minutes ago, jajuan said:

And it's still not worth pursuing. because it still says nothing about how CTA is supposed schedule around ME Electric Main Line and South Shore Line trains. Nor does it explain where CTA is supposed to get the money to pay for such a transfer or how to pay to build its own separate grade right of way of trackage if there was any thought to do so, which if memory serves of how you were proposing this years ago there was no such thought. So again the mayor should have left this dead idea in the dust and not have resurrected it out of the ashes.

There is absolutely NO point in discussing this with you! It has been stated a zillion times (and the first thing on all these websites) is that it would use the E X I S T I N G  Metra (NOT CTA) trains and tracks! (with CTA Decals applied to the sides of the bi-level Metra Highliner II cars used in Gray Line service)

Yet you continue to talk about "building separate grade trackage" -- Please read what it says about using Only E X I S T I N G Metra (NOT CTA) Facilities: www.grayline.20m.com

How do you manage to miss that?

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, chicagopcclcar said:

My first question is....Why would the CTA want to takeover this deficit operation ($64 million deficit yearly)?

 

DH

We all have posed this question to him and he still hasn't provided an answer to it yet.   This deficit you cited is based on current operations.   Yet he wants to increase operations astronomically without saying how it would be paid for.  His only mantra is, it already exists as ME, just change a logo,  increase frequency and presto!!!

[jajuan]

8 hours ago, Mike Payne said:

There is absolutely NO point in discussing this with you! It has been stated a zillion times (and the first thing on all these websites) is that it would use the E X I S T I N G  Metra (NOT CTA) trains and tracks! (with CTA Decals applied to the sides of the bi-level Metra Highliner II cars used in Gray Line service)

Yet you continue to talk about "building separate grade trackage" -- Please read what it says about using Only E X I S T I N G Metra (NOT CTA) Facilities: www.grayline.20m.com

How do you manage to miss that?

Right the same Metra cars and tracks as I thought. So what I said over this weekend on the number of ways this proposal is flawed from so many angles and totally impractical and the reasons I stated all stand. 

[jajuan]

3 hours ago, chicagopcclcar said:

My first question is....Why would the CTA want to takeover this deficit operation ($64 million deficit yearly)? SOURCE: "Metra covered an operating deficit of $64 million in 2015, when the line generate $46 million in revenue but cost $110 million to operate." http://chicagoreporter.com/revamped-...he-fast-track/

 

 

 

DH

That doesn't even count that the resulting service duplication isn't warranted not to mention what I already said about CTA not needing the headache of trying to create schedules around Metra and South Shore trains from riders expecting a smaller serice headway interval from trains labeled as CTA.

2 hours ago, artthouwill said:

We all have posed this question to him and he still hasn't provided an answer to it yet.   This deficit you cited is based on current operations.   Yet he wants to increase operations astronomically without saying how it would be paid for.  His only mantra is, it already exists as ME, just change a logo,  increase frequency and presto!!!

And we know things are not as simple as he keeps trying to present it.

[Busjack]

7 minutes ago, jajuan said:

CTA not needing the headache of trying to create schedules around Metra and South Shore trains

NICTD is funding a study to see if the ME can handle West Lake trains (if that ever gets built by the projected 2023). as well as to cure a bottleneck at Millennium Station. Also, IIRC, the last time Mike claimed that Chicago gave him a consultant, this gout derailed with regard to drawing plans for new CTA stations on the ME, and the consultant saying that the required dwell time at the stations would be too high.

But to get down to the bottom line, it is as I said before, Emanuel thinking he can buy votes where Mike used to live, by making promises he knows he can't keep.

[jajuan]

1 minute ago, Busjack said:

NICTD is funding a study to see if the ME can handle West Lake trains (if that ever gets built by the projected 2023). as well as to cure a bottleneck at Millennium Station. Also, IIRC, the last time Mike claimed that Chicago gave him a consultant, this gout derailed with regard to drawing plans for new CTA stations on the ME, and the consultant saying that the required dwell time at the stations would be too high.

But to get down to the bottom line, it is as I said before, Emanuel thinking he can buy votes where Mike used to live, by making promises he knows he can't keep.

On that part regarding the mayor's throwing his name in this we're in total agreement.

[garmon757]

Alright everybody, this topic is going through some rough patches as of lately. I just want y'all to relax, settle down, and state your responses in a civiled manner. Also, PLEASE make sure to back up your facts that flows with this topic.  Carry on. 

[Mike Payne]

Are these folks wrong also: http://www.modernmetraelectric.org

[Mike Payne]

Gray Line trains would run on the inner (local) tracks, Metra University Park and South Shore trains would use the outer (express) tracks; their operations would not conflict with each other:   http://www.grayline.20m.com/photo4.html

[Busjack]

10 hours ago, Mike Payne said:

Gray Line trains would run on the inner (local) tracks, Metra University Park and South Shore trains would use the outer (express) tracks; their operations would not conflict with each other:   http://www.grayline.20m.com/photo4.html

So what was all the business about that you had to build new stations (57th was not good enough for you, you wanted a second Hegewisch station), you didn't have a terminal at Randolph St, and NICTD's capital plan that there is already a chokepoint at Randolph Street?

Then the point in art's post about who was going to pick up the current operating deficit, not to mention the increased cost for supposedly increased service.

Your link to a ~17 year old site you established doesn't answer these questions, not that this project has been alive for about 10. Also, I don't think Rahm is attempting to buy  your vote. Has he hired you as a consultant? That should have been the next step if he had any serious interest.But I guess he doesn't want to file a Title VI complaint against himself or his man, Martin Oberman.

 

[Mike Payne]

57 minutes ago, Busjack said:

So what was all the business about that you had to build new stations (57th was not good enough for you, you wanted a second Hegewisch station), you didn't have a terminal at Randolph St, and NICTD's capital plan that there is already a chokepoint at Randolph Street?

Then the point in art's post about who was going to pick up the current operating deficit, not to mention the increased cost for supposedly increased service.

Your link to a ~17 year old site you established doesn't answer these questions, not that this project has been alive for about 10. Also, I don't think Rahm is attempting to buy  your vote. Has he hired you as a consultant? That should have been the next step if he had any serious interest.But I guess he doesn't want to file a Title VI complaint against himself or his man, Martin Oberman.

 

So what do you think about these folks efforts:   http://www.modernmetraelectric.org   

And with the new TIF Legislation, only CTA 'L' Lines seem to eligible;  a CTA Gray Line branded service would be eligible for the local TIF's, a modified Metra Electric branded operation would not:   http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-rahm-emanuel-tifs-cta-20160706-story.html

[Busjack]

44 minutes ago, Mike Payne said:

...

And with the new TIF Legislation, only CTA 'L' Lines seem to eligible;  a CTA Gray Line branded service would be eligible for the local TIF's, a modified Metra Electric branded operation would not:   http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-rahm-emanuel-tifs-cta-20160706-story.html

I read the legislation, and it specifically said RPM, Blue Line, Red South, and Union Station* (note that Union Station is not owned by  CTA, but Amtrak). So, no, it wouldn't help the Gray Line, even if CTA bought it from Metra.

You are now grasping at straws.

_______________________

*(c) As used in this Section, a redevelopment project area is limited to the Chicago Union Station Master Plan, the Chicago Transit Authority's Red and Purple Modernization Program, Chicago Transit Authority's Blue Line Modernization and Extension, and the Chicago Transit Authority's Red Line Extension." (65 ILCS 5/11-74.4-3.3 new)

And, BTW, only the primary source controls.

[Mike Payne]

Things can always be changed, and you didn't answer the question about the Coalition for a Modern Metra Electric!

[Busjack]

3 minutes ago, Mike Payne said:

Things can always be changed, and you didn't answer the question about the Coalition for a Modern Metra Electric!

• Lobby your Republican General Assembly member from DuPage county to pass a law to divert more taxes from Chicago corporate purposes.
• I'm not going to be diverted to answering any foamers, just as I don't reply to the simulator topic. Instead,  you have had 18 years to formulate an actual business plan for this, instead of saying it was a free good, but you have not. The burden is on the person asserting the affirmative.

[Mike Payne]

23 minutes ago, Busjack said:

• Lobby your Republican General Assembly member from DuPage county to pass a law to divert more taxes from Chicago corporate purposes.
• I'm not going to be diverted to answering any foamers, just as I don't reply to the simulator topic. Instead,  you have had 18 years to formulate an actual business plan for this, instead of saying it was a free good, but you have not. The burden is on the person asserting the affirmative.

+  Why would I lobby a DuPage County official relating to the South Side of Chicago?

+  Multiple Chambers of Commerce Members are "foamers", that is quite offensive to me -- just like I get called on; and I don't have any "burden", any more than you have a "burden" to answer "foamers" Sir ......

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Mike Payne said:

+  Why would I lobby a DuPage County official relating to the South Side of Chicago?

You said on the Sun-Times and CTA Tattler where you lived, but I'm not going further here into your personal business.

 

1 hour ago, Mike Payne said:

I don't have any "burden",

Sorry, Sir, you do. You want something done that so far has not been done for at least 20 years. No different than Emanuel has the burden of convincing the feds to fund the Red Line South, on which nothing has been done for 40 years. Need stuff like actual capital and operating costs, passenger surveys (like Pace did for the I-55 project) so that ridership and fare revenue can be estimated, and the like. No different than the Tollway saying it can fund Ill 390 at 20 cents per mile, but not even that would fund Ill 53 in Lake County.

I think it could be safely said that the only reason that the ME other than the mainline still has any service is that Metra would have the burden at abandonment proceedings, and it isn't worth it to them to face the activists at the hearings and your Title VI complaint. So, it lets sleeping dogs lie.

[Mike Payne]

2 hours ago, Busjack said:

You said on the Sun-Times and CTA Tattler where you lived, but I'm not going further here into your personal business.

 

Sorry, Sir, you do. You want something done that so far has not been done for at least 20 years. No different than Emanuel has the burden of convincing the feds to fund the Red Line South, on which nothing has been done for 40 years. Need stuff like actual capital and operating costs, passenger surveys (like Pace did for the I-55 project) so that ridership and fare revenue can be estimated, and the like. No different than the Tollway saying it can fund Ill 390 at 20 cents per mile, but not even that would fund Ill 53 in Lake County.

I think it could be safely said that the only reason that the ME other than the mainline still has any service is that Metra would have the burden at abandonment proceedings, and it isn't worth it to them to face the activists at the hearings and your Title VI complaint. So, it lets sleeping dogs lie.

I have no more "burden" than you "don't have to answer "foamers" -- Sir. 

We are not operating as "superiors" and "subordinates"; and why you won't comment on CMME is your own issue ....

[sw4400]

@Busjack, @Mike Payne, comments are getting a little uncivil again after @garmon757 said to tone it down a bit. Please let's get back on point without the bickering, ok? Keep it cool.

[artthouwill]

16 hours ago, Mike Payne said:

Gray Line trains would run on the inner (local) tracks, Metra University Park and South Shore trains would use the outer (express) tracks; their operations would not conflict with each other:   http://www.grayline.20m.com/photo4.html

At the risk of my own sanity,  I'm going to play along with this Gray Line for a moment.   Let me assure 20 minutes headway during peak times on the Blue Island branch and 20 minutes headway during peak times on the South Chicago branch.   I chose 20 minutes to give stations from 63rd northward 10 minute headways.  Also I did it to account for train passage at Halsted on the Blue Island branch since the branch mostly consists of one track. 

It seems we need another platform at Kensington to put the Gray Line trains on the inner tracks and Metra and NICTD trains on the outer tracks.   We also must build a new crossover for NICTD trains.  Also at Kensington and 57th, and 11th,CTA CAS will man the stations with fare controls and those wishing to ride Metra must purchase a ticket and/or show a valid Metra ticket to the CTA agent to gain access to the platform.   

Now what do we do at Van Buren?   Must we have a CTA agent and fare controls there also?   The congestion there currently is bad enough that some of the pm locals actually board on the innermost inbound track.

What about Randolph/Millennium station?   Does the NICTD have to share Metra's station while the Gray Line trains use the current South Shore platforms? 

Now we have increased electricity costs, more agents to hire for all of those Gray Line stations   Guess who stands to lose?   The Red line.  So now the discrepancy between south Red line ridership and north Red line ridership grows even more.  There's also the south side Green line that could lose the few riders it has.  How much will it cost to demolish the Green Line including the brand spanking new McCormick station? 

With the current express bus service along the south lakefront,  the South Chicago branch is sure to continue to run empty trains,  just more frequently.   CTA has to pay Metra to ru empty trains with no cost recovery whatsoever. 

Contrary to your beliefs,  there is always and will always be train conflicts along this corridor,  Gray Line or not. However,  Gray Line service as you propose increases the likelihood and severity of conflicts.   We haven't even started to discuss the possibility of increased traffic with the proposed West Lake service. 

 

I'm coming out of fantasy now. ...Won't you join me?

?  

[Mike Payne]

4 hours ago, artthouwill said:

At the risk of my own sanity,  I'm going to play along with this Gray Line for a moment.   Let me assure 20 minutes headway during peak times on the Blue Island branch and 20 minutes headway during peak times on the South Chicago branch.   I chose 20 minutes to give stations from 63rd northward 10 minute headways.  Also I did it to account for train passage at Halsted on the Blue Island branch since the branch mostly consists of one track. 

It seems we need another platform at Kensington to put the Gray Line trains on the inner tracks and Metra and NICTD trains on the outer tracks.   We also must build a new crossover for NICTD trains.  Also at Kensington and 57th, and 11th,CTA CAS will man the stations with fare controls and those wishing to ride Metra must purchase a ticket and/or show a valid Metra ticket to the CTA agent to gain access to the platform.   

Now what do we do at Van Buren?   Must we have a CTA agent and fare controls there also?   The congestion there currently is bad enough that some of the pm locals actually board on the innermost inbound track.

What about Randolph/Millennium station?   Does the NICTD have to share Metra's station while the Gray Line trains use the current South Shore platforms? 

Now we have increased electricity costs, more agents to hire for all of those Gray Line stations   Guess who stands to lose?   The Red line.  So now the discrepancy between south Red line ridership and north Red line ridership grows even more.  There's also the south side Green line that could lose the few riders it has.  How much will it cost to demolish the Green Line including the brand spanking new McCormick station? 

With the current express bus service along the south lakefront,  the South Chicago branch is sure to continue to run empty trains,  just more frequently.   CTA has to pay Metra to ru empty trains with no cost recovery whatsoever. 

Contrary to your beliefs,  there is always and will always be train conflicts along this corridor,  Gray Line or not. However,  Gray Line service as you propose increases the likelihood and severity of conflicts.   We haven't even started to discuss the possibility of increased traffic with the proposed West Lake service. 

 

I'm coming out of fantasy now. ...Won't you join me?

?  

Where did demolishing the Green Line come from?

 I'm not in any "fantasy", but I do see that I can be insulted unrestrained -- without any recourse!

And I notice no one will comment on CMME's efforts (multiple local Chambers of Commerce, made up of local Business Owners -- But they don't know what their own communities need); what do you think of CMME art: http://www.modernmetraelectric.org

remember sw4400 said to be more "civil"!

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, Mike Payne said:

And I notice no one will comment on CMME's efforts (multiple local Chambers of Commerce, made up of local Business Owners -- But they don't know what their own communities need)

Maybe the Chambers of Commerce will get you the resources to get something accomplished. But you have been unsuccessful for 15 years after winning the CATS prize, so maybe you'll find  something more successful than playing Don Quixote (your term, not mine) on blogs and message boards. @artthouwill, @jajuan, nor I  am going to get you your Gray Line.

Nothing insulting about that.

[Mike Payne]

2 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Maybe the Chambers of Commerce will get you the resources to get something accomplished. But you have been unsuccessful for 15 years after winning the CATS prize, so maybe you'll find  something more successful than playing Don Quixote (your term, not mine) on blogs and message boards.

Nothing insulting about that.

I believe they will, they have some power, in two weeks they're meeting Elected Officials and Transit Agency Officials in Pullman.

I am Don Quixote, I was a Field Tech and now I'm a gas station cashier -- how much Political clout does that engender?

 

[Mike Payne]

As to the questions about Millennium Station berthing:

Gray Line trains would use tracks 5 and 6, the platform between them equipped with Ventra TVM & Turnstyle barrier fare controls (flat CTA Fare charged);  Kensington on 5, South Chicago on 6. Both tracks can berth 2 four-car trains.

Metra University Park 3-zone rush-hour expresses would berth on tracks 2, 3 and 4, with tap in/out distance-based Metra fares (open platforms).

South Shore's platforms would remain totally unaffected by any of these operations.

[artthouwill]

11 hours ago, Mike Payne said:

Where did demolishing the Green Line come from?

 I'm not in any "fantasy", but I do see that I can be insulted unrestrained -- without any recourse!

And I notice no one will comment on CMME's efforts (multiple local Chambers of Commerce, made up of local Business Owners -- But they don't know what their own communities need); what do you think of CMME art: http://www.modernmetraelectric.org

remember sw4400 said to be more "civil"!

I read the link.

 

Pertaining to Ventra,  there is a law already concerning using Ventra on all three services.   But since there are no fare controls on Metra,  they still have kinks to work out collecting their own fares,  let alone transfers.

The state can barely fund itself and I don't expect them to find fools gold for this. 

 

Like I said earlier,  no new ridership would be created but the potential to pull ridership from the Red line and to a lesser degree,  the Green line. 

Where do the funds come from to make all of the stations safe and accessible? 

Maybe I should propose the same thing for the Mt Greenwood area and make the Beverly branch of the Rock Island a CTA service too.  How about Gale wood and the Milwaukee District West .    Are we going to take Hegewisch from NICTD too?

We will see what happens.   Government has been known to throw away money (Block 37 subway station).

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

The state can barely fund itself and I don't expect them to find fools gold for this. 

 

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

We will see what happens.   Government has been known to throw away money (Block 37 subway station).

You have gotten to a point that ties into the Transit TIF issue:

Through both the legislation saying that the Chicago Board of Education is authorized to levy a property tax solely for its pension fund, as well as the Transit TIF legislation, there seems to be enough of a bipartisan consensus that the state is not going to pay, but if Chicago wants to levy taxes for its own purposes, feel free to do so. But, as you indicate, with all the problems Chicago taxpayers now have to face, I don't think subsidizing Metra is high on the priority list.

The Block 37 situation only indicates that Daley was more than willing to throw away money that Emanuel realizes the city now does not have, but he is not willing to blame Daley for the mess he left.

1 hour ago, artthouwill said:

Maybe I should propose the same thing for the Mt Greenwood area and make the Beverly branch of the Rock Island a CTA service too.  How about Gale wood and the Milwaukee District West .  Are we going to take Hegewisch from NICTD too?

How about all the discriminated against brown people near Healy and Grayland on the Milw. N.? In fact, the only reason Ravenswood station on the UPN got rebuilt was that it has heavy passenger traffic, and somehow those passengers aren't begging for transfer rights from the 81 bus. Seems like the developer of the Mariano's TOD at Lawrence and Ravenswood was able to do it without the UPN being a CTA service either.

As noted above in this topic, a new Hegewisch station was part of the plan proposed by the consultant whom Mike said City Hall personally gave him, until Mike said that City Hall sent the consultant to kill the project. Can't have it both ways. Actually the consultant was sent to the SE Commission.