Seattle Articulateds 2

[Busjack]

What do you mean? Or are you joking about more TMCs at North Park and a swap with FG?

I have in my head what I mean. What I was joking about is that in past instances (such as the one relating to the hybrid articulated option) I have tried to outguess rmadison when he does have inside information. Let's just say that there is a rationale for what I implied, and I have left enough of a hint (as did rmadison) that if something does happen in March as he indicated, maybe this time I have figured it out.

As far as Danielsmusic and wordguy's comments are concerned, again, from my reading of the President's Report, the goal is not to alleviate crowding per se, but to decrease the number of units on a street by 25% by putting a 50% larger vehicle there. (You have to know how to compute reciprocals for that to make any sense.)

[Danielsmusic]

As far as Danielsmusic and wordguy's comments are concerned, again, from my reading of the President's Report, the goal is not to alleviate crowding per se, but to decrease the number of units on a street by 25% by putting a 50% larger vehicle there. (You have to know how to compute reciprocals for that to make any sense.)

I do understand, but I don't think it's correct. I mean, what you're saying is true, but when people board artics, they don't stand in the back and they don't fill in the space the way people are willing to on the 40-footers. So, while this is a decent plan mathematically, people really won't utilize the space the way they should (at least in my opinion).

[wordguy]

Articulated buses can actually make tighter turns that 40-foot buses, because the front half of the bus is really like a 35-foot bus. The trailer merely follows behind wherever the front end goes.

The only issue that articulated buses have that would put them at a disadvantage would be the extra length possibly not clearing an intersection or around parked cars when pulling into a bus stop. However, if people are parked legally, even that shouldn't be a problem.

===Illegal parking could actually prove to be a serious problem, IMO. With accelerated enforcement, perhaps car owners who park in bus stops could be persuaded to change their ways. But delivery trucks could be another matter. Unlike supermarkets and other chain stores, the small retail businesses along streets such as 79th or Clark don't have loading docks. Delivery drivers generally operate on tight schedules and are often forced by time constraints to either double-park or use bus stops.

Since existing bus stops would probably need to be extended to accommodate the longer buses, already scarce legal parking in many communities could become more of a problem. This in turn could raise the hackles of shoppers and merchants.

Also, increased headways with fewer buses would result in more dwell time and slower service on already slow routes overall, wouldn't it? While I understand that driveability isn't really a problem, I'm still not convinced (with all due respect) that assigning artics to such routes is a wise idea. (I realize that the 145 operates for a short distance on Wilson, but on thorouhfares where the congestion continues for miles, there could be problems).

[Danielsmusic]

Is there already a bus series numbered in the 7800s? If there is a Pace series numbered that way, I wouldn't know because I don't pay attention to Pace buses. If there isn't, I bet that the Seattle New Flyer artics will be numbered in the 7800s.

[Guest]

Articulated buses can actually make tighter turns that 40-foot buses, because the front half of the bus is really like a 35-foot bus. The trailer merely follows behind wherever the front end goes.

The only issue that articulated buses have that would put them at a disadvantage would be the extra length possibly not clearing an intersection or around parked cars when pulling into a bus stop. However, if people are parked legally, even that shouldn't be a problem.

===Illegal parking could actually prove to be a serious problem, IMO. With accelerated enforcement, perhaps car owners who park in bus stops could be persuaded to change their ways. But delivery trucks could be another matter. Unlike supermarkets and other chain stores, the small retail businesses along streets such as 79th or Clark don't have loading docks. Delivery drivers generally operate on tight schedules and are often forced by time constraints to either double-park or use bus stops.

Since existing bus stops would probably need to be extended to accommodate the longer buses, already scarce legal parking in many communities could become more of a problem. This in turn could raise the hackles of shoppers and merchants.

Also, increased headways with fewer buses would result in more dwell time and slower service on already slow routes overall, wouldn't it? While I understand that driveability isn't really a problem, I'm still not convinced (with all due respect) that assigning artics to such routes is a wise idea. (I realize that the 145 operates for a short distance on Wilson, but on thorouhfares where the congestion continues for miles, there could be problems).

I have to make a correction to your statement, the newer CTA artics cant make the turns as easy as the 40ft buses unlike the old MAN artics. Reason being that the old buses were 55ft long, the newer NABIs are 60ft long. But the real reason is that the old MANs trailer wheels would pivot and turn wherever the front section went. The new NABIs do not have this, their trailer wheels do not have pivot or turn and whats worse they are the drive wheels where the MANs drive wheels were the located in the center. I drove the old CTA MAN artics and they were a relatively easy bus to drive .

[Danielsmusic]

I have to make a correction to your statement, the newer CTA artics cant make the turns as easy as the 40ft buses unlike the old MAN artics. Reason being that the old buses were 55ft long, the newer NABIs are 60ft long. But the real reason is that the old MANs trailer wheels would pivot and turn wherever the front section went. The new NABIs do not have this, their trailer wheels do not have pivot or turn and whats worse they are the drive wheels where the MANs drive wheels were the located in the center. I drove the old CTA MAN artics and they were a relatively easy bus to drive .

My uncle (who is rediculously irresponsible) let me steer a 7100-series around the old turnaround @ Wilson/Ravenswood for the 135. Very easy. I've noticed the NABIs having trouble with the back section trailing well - this explains it.

[Danielsmusic]

Since existing bus stops would probably need to be extended to accommodate the longer buses, already scarce legal parking in many communities could become more of a problem. This in turn could raise the hackles of shoppers and merchants.

Wrong. If you take the southbound 156, most of the stops are either always blocked or too short for the NABIs. If you wait at North Avenue, the operator will stop in the middle of the street, blocking both the right lane and the southwest part of the intersection. You have to walk through the parking lane (not actually a parking lane) to get to the door of the bus. Also, the old 135/145 stop on the southeast side of the Wilson/Ravenswood intersection right next to the old Zephyr restaraunt was too short. Another example: the wb stop just west of the North/Milwaukee/Damen interstection on the 72 (right by the old auxilary L station exit) doesn't seem to convince drivers to pull all the way past the intersection, so the buses (all 40-footers) are right in the middle of the intersection.

[BusExpert32]

Is there already a bus series numbered in the 7800s? If there is a Pace series numbered that way, I wouldn't know because I don't pay attention to Pace buses. If there isn't, I bet that the Seattle New Flyer artics will be numbered in the 7800s.

Pace and the CTA don't number their series' differently as many of their series numbers overlap. But the CTA does number their buses and trains diffrently, so, since there is no train series in the 7800s or higher, you can surely bet anything between 7800-9900 for the Articulated Hybrids (no trains numbered higher than 3399).

[Danielsmusic]

Pace and the CTA don't number their series' differently as many of their series numbers overlap. But the CTA does number their buses and trains diffrently, so, since there is no train series in the 7800s or higher, you can surely bet anything between 7800-9900 for the Articulated Hybrids (no trains numbered higher than 3399).

Well then I bet the Seattle artics will be numbered in the 7800 series. All of the CTA's artics (except for the MAN demonstrator in 1974) have been numbered in the 7000s.

1979 MAN SG-220-16.5-2A - 7000s

1983 MAN SG-310-16.5-2A - 7100s

1982 MAN SG-310-18-2L - 7300s

2003 NABI 60-LFW - 7500s

2008 New Flyer DE60LF - 7800s

[trainman8119]

Well then I bet the Seattle artics will be numbered in the 7800 series. All of the CTA's artics (except for the MAN demonstrator in 1974) have been numbered in the 7000s.

1979 MAN SG-220-16.5-2A - 7000s

1983 MAN SG-310-16.5-2A - 7100s

1982 MAN SG-310-18-2L - 7300s

2003 NABI 60-LFW - 7500s

2008 New Flyer DE60LF - 7800s

Here is a possible idea. Since they are hybrids, how about 600 or 700 series. Then, all the hybrid buses would have 3 digit numbers and could be identifed easily. My initial thought was 700 to keep the 7 in the artic, but with more than 100 due, that wouldn't work. So if you went into 600 you could carry into 700.

[jajuan]

Here is a possible idea. Since they are hybrids, how about 600 or 700 series. Then, all the hybrid buses would have 3 digit numbers and could be identifed easily. My initial thought was 700 to keep the 7 in the artic, but with more than 100 due, that wouldn't work. So if you went into 600 you could carry into 700.

I see your point there, and it does make sense. However, the problem would be that the Optimas aren't hybrids and they use three-digit bus numbers. It's still a good idea though.

[Busjack]

I see your point there, and it does make sense. However, the problem would be that the Optimas aren't hybrids and they use three-digit bus numbers. It's still a good idea though.

Also, if I remember correctly, there are some utility trucks in those series. You have to consider all CTA equipment, not just buses.

As I previously said, this is of little consequence. In fact, I can imagine some mole saying "those Internet ... think its going to be 7800, so since we haven't ordered them yet, let's cross them up and make it 3500 (or something else)." Remember, there is still a bunch of people who believe that the Bombardier L cars are going to be 3500s, despite it being over a year since the 5000 presentation was made.

[BusHunter]

Well then I bet the Seattle artics will be numbered in the 7800 series. All of the CTA's artics (except for the MAN demonstrator in 1974) have been numbered in the 7000s.

1979 MAN SG-220-16.5-2A - 7000s

1983 MAN SG-310-16.5-2A - 7100s

1982 MAN SG-310-18-2L - 7300s

2003 NABI 60-LFW - 7500s

2008 New Flyer DE60LF - 7800s

Your bet is most likely correct. It makes the most sense to number these buses #7800 - #7949 because they are artics. Probably the #7800 composite bus is toast anyway, and with the bad blood with NABI all ties are most likely severed. I think the #800 and #900 hybrids are numbered that way because they were an experiment at the time and if they fail and are retired will not make a gaping hole in the fleet numbers. Probably the #500's were numbered that way because they are essentially a half of a standard bus therefore half a four digit number.

[BusExpert32]

Your bet is most likely correct. It makes the most sense to number these buses #7800 - #7949 because they are artics. Probably the #7800 composite bus is toast anyway, and with the bad blood with NABI all ties are most likely severed. I think the #800 and #900 hybrids are numbered that way because they were an experiment at the time and if they fail and are retired will not make a gaping hole in the fleet numbers. Probably the #500's were numbered that way because they are essentially a half of a standard bus therefore half a four digit number.

#7800 was retired a while ago, and the numbering of the Optimas has nothing to do with their size- they could've been numbered in the 9900s just as well and it wouldn't have made a difference.

[Busjack]

With the publicity about change orders for the L cars and the like, I don't see anything in the press or on transitchicago.com about the board acting on this option. Anything happen, or was this put off for a month, despite a supposed Jan. deadline?

[Busjack]

Another board meeting, and no mention of this. With the supposed Jan deadline, is this dead? Or like most things, subject to interminable continuances?

[Danielsmusic]

Another board meeting, and no mention of this. With the supposed Jan deadline, is this dead? Or like most things, subject to interminable continuances?

No one at CTA really expects things to go as planned. I don't think anyone actually imagined that the 7800s (as I'm calling them) would arrive soon.

[Busjack]

No one at CTA really expects things to go as planned. I don't think anyone actually imagined that the 7800s (as I'm calling them) would arrive soon.

The question isn't whether they would arrive soon. The question was whether the board will exercise the option, which supposedly had an expiration date. If it doesn't, they won't be arriving at all.

[Danielsmusic]

The question isn't whether they would arrive soon. The question was whether the board will exercise the option, which supposedly had an expiration date. If it doesn't, they won't be arriving at all.

Two of the NP supervisors said that the CTA is for sure getting the buses. This may not be true, given the incredible lack of knowledge that most CTA workers seem to posses. However, the employees at NP who do know what they're talking about all seem to agree that the 7800s will be approved.

[Busjack]

Two of the NP supervisors said that the CTA is for sure getting the buses. This may not be true, given the incredible lack of knowledge that most CTA workers seem to posses. However, the employees at NP who do know what they're talking about all seem to agree that the 7800s will be approved.

Total gossip. The only body that can exercise the option is THE CTA BOARD. And they can do it only if (1) there is still a live option on the table, and only NEW FLYER knows that, and (2) staff can find a way to finance it, as directed by the Board in January, and street supervisors aren't that staff.

Enough said. I don't know what stake you have in either preserving the articulated hybrid story or relaying information from sources that are not in a position to have any (unless they have a cousin in the Planning or Finance departments).

[Danielsmusic]

Enough said. I don't know what stake you have in either preserving the articulated hybrid story or relaying information from sources that are not in a position to have any (unless they have a cousin in the Planning or Finance departments).

I'M TELLING YOU MY SOURCE SO THAT YOU CAN DECIDE WHETHER THE INFORMATION IS CORRECT OR NOT. DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT MY "STAKE" IN RELAYING INFORMATION!!! IF YOU HAVE SOME ISSUE WITH ME, TELL ME!!! BUT DO NOT SAY I SHOULDN'T BE RELAYING INFORMATION! I DON'T LIE ABOUT THE SOURCES, SO THERE'S NO REASON TO QUESTION ME POSTING THE INFO.

[trainman8119]

Looks like the hybrid artcis are still in play. Today's Sun-Times outlines a $225 spending plan which includes the following

The federal money will also speed up bus overhauls, allow for the lease of 150 new hybrid 60-foot articulated (accordion-style) buses, improve train door and brake safety, fund lighting and structural repairs, and expand upgrades to the signal system.

Here is the link for the whole story

[Buslover88]

Total gossip. The only body that can exercise the option is THE CTA BOARD. And they can do it only if (1) there is still a live option on the table, and only NEW FLYER knows that, and (2) staff can find a way to finance it, as directed by the Board in January, and street supervisors aren't that staff.

You are right about this.

I don't know what stake you have in either preserving the articulated hybrid story or relaying information from sources that are not in a position to have any (unless they have a cousin in the Planning or Finance departments).

Okay, that sounded harsh. I don't think Danielsmusic has a "stake" about it because all he is doing is telling us he hears, but I will agree that it IS gossip amongst the drivers.

I'M TELLING YOU MY SOURCE SO THAT YOU CAN DECIDE WHETHER THE INFORMATION IS CORRECT OR NOT. DON'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT MY "STAKE" IN RELAYING INFORMATION!!! IF YOU HAVE SOME ISSUE WITH ME, TELL ME!!! BUT DO NOT SAY I SHOULDN'T BE RELAYING INFORMATION! I DON'T LIE ABOUT THE SOURCES, SO THERE'S NO REASON TO QUESTION ME POSTING THE INFO.

Okay, just relax. No need to get all hyped up just because Busjack's being harsh about things. That's his problem, and he needs to deal with it. Personally, I think you guys should PM each other if there's going to be an arguement. I'm not trying to start anything here so don't call me any names as I am only trying to help get everything settled.

Enough said, to the both of you.

[Busjack]

Looks like the hybrid artcis are still in play. Today's Sun-Times outlines a $225 spending plan which includes the following

Here is the link for the whole story

I saw it too. I found it interesting that the Sun-Times said this, but the CTA Press Release, and other sources didn't. I don't believe that the PowerPoint originally included it, but the preexisting slide is at least now on page 15. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Danielsmusic]

Okay, just relax. No need to get all hyped up just because Busjack's being harsh about things. That's his problem, and he needs to deal with it. Personally, I think you guys should PM each other if there's going to be an arguement. I'm not trying to start anything here so don't call me any names as I am only trying to help get everything settled.

Enough said, to the both of you.

You're right.