busfan4022 Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 I was on the route 87 today, and while the bus driver was waiting at a stop, another operator got onto the bus and they were talking about some sort of shield for the bus drivers. One of the bus drivers said that there is already a prototype on one of 77ths buses already, and are supposed to be on all buses by February. They went on to talk about how it doesn't fully cover up the drivers but instead block of a section (not including the head). My guess is that this so called "shield" is going to be composed of generic plastic. Sounds like a big waste of money to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 I was on the route 87 today, and while the bus driver was waiting at a stop, another operator got onto the bus and they were talking about some sort of shield for the bus drivers. One of the bus drivers said that there is already a prototype on one of 77ths buses already, and are supposed to be on all buses by February. They went on to talk about how it doesn't fully cover up the drivers but instead block of a section (not including the head). My guess is that this so called "shield" is going to be composed of generic plastic. Sounds like a big waste of money to me. There is no real solution to install a protective shield for bus operators, It is just impossible. Buses do not have the type of room and the width that a rapid transit car has. A completely enclosed glass area for a bus operator would take up space already used up thanks to the "Low Floor" design. The operator would have to be able to move in and out of the seat freely. And Im not trying to insult anyone but there are operators that already have a difficult time moving in and out of the drivers seat. And as far the safety issue the operator would have to be able to quickly and safely egress the bus should an emergency arise such as a fire on board or an accident. In my opinion this would not work, it is not safe. Theoretically it would work but it is not practical. All it is doing is profiling the south side area as a high crime infested area just the same as seeing burglar bars at Walgreens such as the one at Homan and Roosevelt on the west side. I dont think this is the answer. A big waste of time and money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 See today's article in the RedEye for more details about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 It is an unfortunate reality that CTA operators have to deal with. People riding the buses know that a bus operator most likely will not rise from their seat if they are assaulted, but then they havent crossed my line! Anyway, it is found that a rider has such an easy escape if they choose to strike an operator they will make that cowardly run for the door knowingly the operator will not leave his seat. Plus the operator will have the concern that his or her job will be jeopardized if they leave the seat to retaliate against a passenger because CTA will not back the operator should the incident be reported to CTA management. I dont think the shield idea is good. If it were up to me I would allow CTA personnel to carry protection such as pepper spray and give operators a little more lee way when it comes to physical assaults against an operator. I once knew an operator on #12 Roosevelt that carried personal protection and for good reason. I wont say what he was carrying but it even scared me. I doubted for a little bit if I really wanted this job when I trained at CTA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 All it is doing is profiling the south side area as a high crime infested area just the same as seeing burglar bars at Walgreens such as the one at Homan and Roosevelt on the west side.The RedEye article didn't mention the incident where the guy sneaked on the bus at Roosevelt and Monitor and gave the driver an el-cabong, resulting in a new bus careening into the fence. So it certainly isn't just a south side problem. However, short of the bulletproof Lazy Susan you see at Harold's Chicken Shack (including in Hyde Park), I don't know what would work, and for the quick escape reason mentioned by 5750, doubt that that would be practical either. Supposedly putting in exact fare boxes 38 or so years ago was supposed to stop this business, but apparently people continue to assault the driver for reasons other than money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 The RedEye article didn't mention the incident where the guy sneaked on the bus at Roosevelt and Monitor and gave the driver an el-cabong, resulting in a new bus careening into the fence. So it certainly isn't just a south side problem. However, short of the bulletproof Lazy Susan you see at Harold's Chicken Shack (including in Hyde Park), I don't know what would work, and for the quick escape reason mentioned by 5750, doubt that that would be practical either. Supposedly putting in exact fare boxes 38 or so years ago was supposed to stop this business, but apparently people continue to assault the driver for reasons other than money. I'm reading the RedEye article as we speak and it mentions that new buses arriving in February will come with partial shields installed. So I'm guessing these will be Flyers 1600 and above depending on how high the Flyers at 103rd and North Park will reach. The incidents mentioned were on a 60 Blue Island/26th and a 79 79th. It's definitely more than a south side issue. Especially in a day and time when people are so disrespectful especially teenagers. The south side incident involve a young punk with nothing better to do with his time. It may not be a perfect solution but at least CTA management is starting to look out for the safety of its bus operators and by extension the riders. Who wants to be injured on a bus because some idiot attacked the driver and causes the bus to have an accident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buslover88 Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Sounds like a big waste of money to me. I agree with this if the driver's head isn't going to be covered as well. jajuan: Not all teenagers are punks as you may think. I'm a teenager myself, yet I don't go out into the streets and cause trouble. I'd rather photograph buses then cause trouble. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanbytes Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I've seen the shields on at least two of the New Flyers out of North Park. It's big enough to keep somebody from doing anything to the driver from behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielsmusic Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I was on the X28 today, and this driver was complaining to me about how 103rd will definitely be the last garage to get the shields. One passenger made me laugh when she said, "It's cause the CTA don't care about black people." The woman was white, in her 70's, and she said it so authoritatively that I just had to laugh. Two weeks ago, I was on the 2 and this guy tried to cut in front of the bus and started to scrape the bus. The operator pulled over and went to the car and started pounding the window. A major argument ensued. And, though it did make us late, I was glad when a cop showed up and ticketed the bad driver. As nice as that was, being an articulated, the bus that had been idle in the road had actually blocked two and-a-half lanes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwantae Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 jajuan: Not all teenagers are punks as you may think. I'm a teenager myself, yet I don't go out into the streets and cause trouble. I'd rather photograph buses then cause trouble. Thats what I did through my teenage years, I was taken alot of pictures of buses when I travel accross the country, I even called transit agencys in the U.S. for an order of schedules, system maps and pictures of buses, like Boston, Miami, Philadelphia, Dayton OH, etc.. It was fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I agree with this if the driver's head isn't going to be covered as well. jajuan: Not all teenagers are punks as you may think. I'm a teenager myself, yet I don't go out into the streets and cause trouble. I'd rather photograph buses then cause trouble. I didn't say all teenagers are punks. I was talking about those who go out and cause trouble. My point was a lot of the trouble I see with dumbbells attacking or threatening drivers are those teenagers and young twentysomethings out trying to impress their friends and prove their masculinity. Basically young folks with nothing to do with their time. And there definitely are a lot. You don't take part in such stupidity. Hurray for you and that's commendable. But don't take my point about those who do as meaning all teenagers. If that's the impression you got, I do apologize. I'm just speaking from what I witness in my part of town. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busfan4022 Posted January 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I didn't say all teenagers are punks. I was talking about those who go out and cause trouble. My point was a lot of the trouble with dumbbells attacking drivers are those teenagers and young twentysomethings out trying to impress their friends. Basically young folks with nothing to do with their time. You don't take put in such stupidity. Hurray for you. But don't take my point about those who do as meaning all teenagers. Teenagers aren't the biggest threat. Most arguments start with the driver talking to passengers, and trying to butt into everything instead of paying attention to their job. Simple, see something wrong, report it. Otherwise don't talk unless spoken to about help. ;] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajuan Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 Teenagers aren't the biggest threat. Most arguments start with the driver talking to passengers, and trying to butt into everything instead of paying attention to their job. Simple, see something wrong, report it. Otherwise don't talk unless spoken to about help. ;] Well we don't want to put it all on the drivers either. If we really want to get down to it, most arguments start from a general lack of respect people in general tend to show for each other these days. Some of it may come from teens, some of it may come from the drivers themselves and some of it may come from adult passengers who definitely should know better. Regardless of who it comes from, the bottom line is if that driver isn't doing anything to threaten your life or your physical safety, you have no business and no right putting him and other passengers in danger by physically attacking him. And I'm willing to bet what some people look at as a driver butting in could actually be a driver not tolerating somebody on the bus disrespecting everybody else with their disruptive behavior. I witness a lot of instances where there's someone being a jerk on the bus and the driver letting him know that it's getting out of hand and everyone else would be like 'just drive the bus and leave him alone.' Some of what we see as someone being a harmless jerk can actually be someone with mental issues that can pose a danger to other people. We don't want our rush to get to our destination to become a means of ignoring what can be a potentially explosive situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcmetro Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 In Minneapolis these shields were installed in the 90s after some shootings on the buses. The shields are supposed to prevent attacks from behind. Do all the buses have cameras? I was suprised to hear that some systems do not have cameras on their buses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busjack Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 In Minneapolis these shields were installed in the 90s after some shootings on the buses. The shields are supposed to prevent attacks from behind. Do all the buses have cameras? I was suprised to hear that some systems do not have cameras on their buses. All CTA buses have cameras. However, unless the cellular communications system is installed (also for Bus Tracker), the images are saved to disk, and are available for later review, but not detection of the crime when it happens. There is supposed to be a hidden panic switch on the Orbital gps system. I don't understand the "shield from an attack from behind" point. Most buses have some sort of divider behind the driver. One would think that an attack would roughly be from the side (passenger standing by the farebox). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westing Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I recently saw one of these shields on an Archer New Flyer. I'll try my best to describe it. It is constructed of acrylic clear plastic and is about 4 feet in height. It is attached to a tubular metal holder like that used for the poles, only it is black. The shield is attached to the corner of the large cabinet behind the driver at about a 10 degree angle. The shield does not come out very far, only about 4 inches. It seems it would only protect the driver from someone accidently bumping into them. If some punk wanted to attack the driver, this plastic divider would not deter them much. Maybe the other shield prototypes are of more substance than the one I saw. I've heard of other cities enclosing the entire driver area behind glass. That would be true protection, the shield I saw was just a false sense of security and waste of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danielsmusic Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 I recently saw one of these shields on an Archer New Flyer. I'll try my best to describe it. It is constructed of acrylic clear plastic and is about 4 feet in height. It is attached to a tubular metal holder like that used for the poles, only it is black. The shield is attached to the corner of the large cabinet behind the driver at about a 10 degree angle. The shield does not come out very far, only about 4 inches. It seems it would only protect the driver from someone accidently bumping into them. If some punk wanted to attack the driver, this plastic divider would not deter them much. Maybe the other shield prototypes are of more substance than the one I saw. I've heard of other cities enclosing the entire driver area behind glass. That would be true protection, the shield I saw was just a false sense of security and waste of money. In the single-level Mercedes buses in London, the driver has a little waist-level door and an attached shield which goes between the cabinet behind the driver and about three inches from the windshield. In the now retired Routemasters (the classic double-decker bus) the driver had a bullet-proof glass-enclosed cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tcmetro Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 In the single-level Mercedes buses in London, the driver has a little waist-level door and an attached shield which goes between the cabinet behind the driver and about three inches from the windshield. In the now retired Routemasters (the classic double-decker bus) the driver had a bullet-proof glass-enclosed cab. They were able to afford conductors on the old Routemasters though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanbytes Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Maybe the other shield prototypes are of more substance than the one I saw. I've heard of other cities enclosing the entire driver area behind glass. That would be true protection, the shield I saw was just a false sense of security and waste of money. You described the shields I saw to a "T". I think they're as much protection as can be provided without making it overly complicated for the drivers to get into and out of the seat or moving it into the area of a divider covering the driver completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusExpert32 Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Protective shields have been implemented in only a few transit agencies in the 90s due to smaller events within each city. However, after the September 11th attacks in '01, many transit agencies including some in New York, New Jersey, Boston, and Miami took action by putting shields in place that covered the whole drivers area. I was very surprised that the CTA decided not to have shields for drivers, knowing that it is the third largest city in the US and should have very high security for buses and trains. I only personally saw what one agency did during my trip to Miami in the summer of 2005. It looked like a Nabi (for Miami-Dade County Transit) that I saw in downtown Miami. The shield covered the whole drivers area, and protected the driver from an attack or anything being thrown at him/her, such as a brick. The driver had to get into his seat by opening a conpartment/door, so this definitely also protected the driver's head. So whatever the CTA is doing (I have yet to personally see it), is a complete waste of money if the driver is not completely protected. Also, the shields are only being tested on the 6400s and 1000s as of now and until February. So what happens in February? How will the shields be placed into the 6000 Flxibles or maybe even the 4400s? Because if the shield takes up enormous space on low floor buses, and the 6000s will not be retired by the New Flyers and cannot have shields, so what will happen to this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
real cta fan Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 [quote name='real cta fan' post='8187' date='Jan 4 2008, 08:17 PM']something signifigant would be the enclosure that the st. louis light rail trains have for it's operators. if you see pic of the interior of the trains, they look alot like busses. Move the fare boxes and have a remote control fare box keypad. Alota money involved. when there is safety involved its priceless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westing Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 something signifigant would be the enclosure that the st. louis light rail trains have for it's operators. if you see pic of the interior of the trains, they look alot like busses. Move the fare boxes and have a remote control fare box keypad. Alota money involved. when there is safety involved its priceless An enclosure like that would be very secure but as you said also very costly. Also, it might not be feasible on every bus. However, if I were a driver I would certainly prefer that kind of security. These experimental shields could be more of an insult than anything. Skimping on security for the sake of positive PR is just wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanbytes Posted January 6, 2008 Report Share Posted January 6, 2008 These experimental shields could be more of an insult than anything. Skimping on security for the sake of positive PR is just wrong. If I was a driver I'd be thankful. Whatever makes me safer no matter how small would be more than welcome. I doubt the design is dictated by PR at all. Like everything it's the result of a battle between form and function. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusHunter Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 If anyone wants to see a protective shield #6883 has one. It's been on it since the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusExpert32 Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 If anyone wants to see a protective shield #6883 has one. It's been on it since the summer. Wow. I never knew that the shields were already here during the summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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