Route Changes at North Park

[Danielsmusic]

In Kevin's post about upcoming route changes, the hope of reducing routes at North Park was mentioned. Here are the route loses at NP I can see happening:

22 More supplementary service (in addition to the current Kedzie service)

36 More supplementary service (in addition to the current Kedzie service)

92 No more school trips

93 Pace could have the majority of runs. Or, interline it along Kedzie with the 52, giving Kedzie the route.

98 Could run from Forest Glen

125 Could do some runs from Kedzie or Chicago (though not as likely as Kedzie)

135 Because the 135 doesn't provide service on Wilson anymore, customers on the Clarendon

segment could walk to Marine and take the 136. If the 136 was beefed up, it could run all the way to Belmont with supplementary service starting at Irving Park

143 Could run from Kedzie like the 134 does - makes sense because the 134 supplements the 156

and the 143 supplements the Belmont 151 runs.

144 If additional service on the 146 was provided, the 144 could feasibly be discontinued (the way it used to be)

148 If some runs on the 145 entered Lake Shore Drive at Irving Park and the 145 was a little beefed up, the 148 could be discontinued

151 Have some Kedzie runs go to Foster

152 No more school trips

154 No more trips

200 Could feasibly be run by Pace

206 Pace could have more runs

[jajuan]

In Kevin's post about upcoming route changes, the hope of reducing routes at North Park was mentioned. Here are the route loses at NP I can see happening:

22 More supplementary service (in addition to the current Kedzie service)

36 More supplementary service (in addition to the current Kedzie service)

92 No more school trips

93 Pace could have the majority of runs. Or, interline it along Kedzie with the 52, giving Kedzie the route.

98 Could run from Forest Glen

125 Could do some runs from Kedzie or Chicago (though not as likely as Kedzie)

135 Because the 135 doesn't provide service on Wilson anymore, customers on the Clarendon

segment could walk to Marine and take the 136. If the 136 was beefed up, it could run all the way to Belmont with supplementary service starting at Irving Park

143 Could run from Kedzie like the 134 does - makes sense because the 134 supplements the 156

and the 143 supplements the Belmont 151 runs.

144 If additional service on the 146 was provided, the 144 could feasibly be discontinued (the way it used to be)

148 If some runs on the 145 entered Lake Shore Drive at Irving Park and the 145 was a little beefed up, the 148 could be discontinued

151 Have some Kedzie runs go to Foster

152 No more school trips

154 No more trips

200 Could feasibly be run by Pace

206 Pace could have more runs

Makes sense though I don't really see CTA giving up service, and therefore revenue even though it may be considered a small amount, to Pace. The 93 especially because half the route is in the city and from evidence of recent past Pace restructurings and the upcoming South Cook restructuring Pace is backing down and scaling back service that comes within the city and otherwise duplicates CTA service. (Though I agree with Busjack that the scale back of 349 is surprising given the current structure of service on Western between 95th and 79th). Back to the topic at hand though, it's more likely to see some local routes at North Park transferred to Kedzie and/or Forest Glen where feasible and an express route or two go to Kedzie than to see any routes get turned over to Pace. I definitely don't see them moving to any elimanations of routes that are not a part of a current 6 month standard test run any time soon given the uproar about eliminating routes as part of the now defunct doomsday plans.

Plus I can't see the people who ride the inner Drive between Irving Park and Belmont going back to any trips of 145 entering the Drive at Irving Park even though that's all the 148 is, an rush hour only form of what the 145 was after the initial Lake Shore restructurings. It never made sense to me to designate those trips as a totally separate route when a notation could have be made that some peak direction rush hour trips of the 145 would operate the Drive to Irving Park instead of Belmont.

[Busjack]

I agree with jajuan that Daniel is reading too much into this. More likely it is mostly shuffling routes among garages, not wholesale restructurings. A vast round of public hearings would be required to make these kinds of changes, something that has not been announced, nor would ever be in this climate. Those kind of changes would also require board approval. Carole Brown isn't going to be turning over routes to Pace, even though I suggested on her blog, nearly 2 years ago, that she do so, along with the money to run the routes. So, forget it Daniel.

Instead, something like the 125 move is possible. Another change I had previously suggested in this forum is to put hybrid articulateds at Chicago Garage and run Belmont with them (along with Chicago, Madison, and Pulaski). I have no inside information that that would happen, but it would make some sense.

This doesn't seem to me to be any different, than, say, when Western was turned over to Archer (rather than 69th and NP), or Halsted was turned over to 69th (rather than 77th and Limits), Addison was turned over to FG (from NP), etc. And, yes, it was 69th before 74th was built. In fact, since 74th seems underutilized, maybe something gets moved there (but probably not from NP). Again, I have in my mind what I would do, but am not going to predict it here.

[trainman8119]

Instead, something like the 125 move is possible. Another change I had previously suggested in this forum is to put hybrid articulateds at Chicago Garage and run Belmont with them (along with Chicago, Madison, and Pulaski). I have no inside information that that would happen, but it would make some sense.

Law of transportation...if it makes sense, it never happens. Artics on Belmont makes a lot of sense...but would Chicago have any room to store them, what with buses reported to be parked on the street. Also, something like that might make more sense to have say, Forest Glen run all Evanston routes (yeah, I know, a lot of deadheading) or 93, 97 or whatever...and then have North Park run Belmont with Artics. Of course that might require NP to have more artics on hand, and I guess they are in a space crunch too. So, bottom line, no real solution to the problem...but I like the idea.

In fact, since 74th seems underutilized, maybe something gets moved there (but probably not from NP). Again, I have in my mind what I would do, but am not going to predict it here.

It would be possible to take some of the south end Kedzie routes and move them to Archer or 74 (moving Archer routes to 74 if you were to take Kedzie and put at Archer) should you want to take some routes from NP and put them at Kedzie. Not a prediction, just a supposition.

[Busjack]

Law of transportation...if it makes sense, it never happens. Artics on Belmont makes a lot of sense...but would Chicago have any room to store them, what with buses reported to be parked on the street.

It would be possible to take some of the south end Kedzie routes and move them to Archer or 74 (moving Archer routes to 74 if you were to take Kedzie and put at Archer) should you want to take some routes from NP and put them at Kedzie. Not a prediction, just a supposition.

1. I was assuming that buses would be relocated, assuming that the hybrid articulateds are received (assumption on assumption).

2. My undisclosed thinking was similar to the second; i.e. Madison goes to Kedzie (slightly inconsistent with my prior thought), Blue Island goes to Archer, and 47 and 51 go to 74th, or something like that.

[Buslover88]

135 Because the 135 doesn't provide service on Wilson anymore, customers on the Clarendon

segment could walk to Marine and take the 136. If the 136 was beefed up, it could run all the way to Belmont with supplementary service starting at Irving Park

143 Could run from Kedzie like the 134 does - makes sense because the 134 supplements the 156

and the 143 supplements the Belmont 151 runs.

I agree with this. I think costumers on #135 could walk a least a little bit to Marine. I also agree that #143 should be ran out of Kedzie.

22 More supplementary service (in addition to the current Kedzie service)

36 More supplementary service (in addition to the current Kedzie service)

What are you talking about when you say #22 and #36 should have "more supplementary service"? They run out of North Park all the time. Maybe you were suggesting that Kedzie could run supplementary service which I would agree to.

92 No more school trips

93 Pace could have the majority of runs. Or, interline it along Kedzie with the 52, giving Kedzie the route.

98 Could run from Forest Glen

125 Could do some runs from Kedzie or Chicago (though not as likely as Kedzie)

I don't know how #92's school trips impact anybody, so i'm not saying anything about #92. I disagree with your #93 proposal because #52 ends on Calforina and Roscoe but #93 starts at Kimball and Lawrence and that seems a little far to be doing any interlining. Also, wouldn't CTA and Pace have to have some kind of meeting about your #93 "proposal"?

Doesn't #98 run with North Park artics? If that was ran out of Forest Glen, you would need 2 or 3 buses following each other. I agree that Chicago and/or Kedzie could help North Park for #125.

151 Have some Kedzie runs go to Foster

I don't think any Kedzie drivers would want to go up to Foster.

152 No more school trips

I completey disagree with this. Do you realize just how many schools #152's school trips serve? The school my sister attends, Schurz High School, needs those trips, but Lane Tech/Gordon needs #152's school trips more. If you think about it, the school trips serve at least 12,000+ students.

200 Could feasibly be run by Pace

206 Pace could have more runs

Again, CTA and Pace would have to talk with each other about that.

[Buslover88]

Here are the routes I think North Park should lose either completey or somewhat:

11 Lincoln-Sedgwick: Kedzie should run some supplement service to this route.

49B North Western - Hmmm ... I thought about this for a while and my conclusion is that Forest Glen could run this route (possibly interline with #81 or #92?)

200 Main Shuttle - Could possibly be ran out of Forest Glen.

201 Central/Ridge - Could possibly be ran out of Forest Glen.

205 - Chicago/Golf - Could possibly be ran out of Forest Glen.

That's all I have to say.

[Busjack]

49B North Western - Hmmm ... I thought about this for a while and my conclusion is that Forest Glen could run this route (possibly interline with #81 or #92?)

The question is how do you interline with 82 or 92, if the east terminal for each is approximately the lakefront (Marine Dr. for 81, Berwyn-Sheridan (after leaving the Red Line station) for 92).

Of course, nearly any route can be assigned to any garage, within reason, so long as one wants to tolerate a certain amount of deadheading. That seems to be the justification for the rumored transfer of Evanston routes to Forest Glen (206 already does it), but the terminal of 49B (Western-Leland) is very close to North Park (Kedzie-Foster).

For that matter, you could change the assumed terminal for 97 from Howard to Skokie, in which case it would be closer to FG. 54A already is based at FG. I don't know what that would do to reliefs on that route.

[Danielsmusic]

What are you talking about when you say #22 and #36 should have "more supplementary service"? They run out of North Park all the time. Maybe you were suggesting that Kedzie could run supplementary service which I would agree to.

If Kedzie started contributing more to the supplementary service on the 22 and 36 (which does already exist), it might help those two routes.

I completey disagree with this. Do you realize just how many schools #152's school trips serve? The school my sister attends, Schurz High School, needs those trips, but Lane Tech/Gordon needs #152's school trips more. If you think about it, the school trips serve at least 12,000+ students.

I don't think the service should be reduced, merely the garage changed.

[Busjack]

I don't think the service should be reduced, merely the garage changed.

Since the main reason for NP handling the school runs is because the equipment from FG assigned to 152 is inadequate, and articulated buses are used, are you also advocating moving the buses? That would seem contrary to the other proposal that equipment should be consolidated. Otherwise, you are massively increasing the equipment, and more importantly, the tripper driver cost for the school service.

[BusHunter]

Either last week or the week before I seen Kedzie artics on the #135 route. Then I saw North Park artics on the #135 the day after. Has there been some type of bus assignment change over here? I thought the assignment was purely North Park's. I don't think it was a fill in either because that day I saw multiple Kedzie artic's on the route. BTW, I don't think if changes are made at North Park #152 will lose North Park's school runs. These are essential to the route. example: You have 4300 kids at Lane Tech waiting for the bus, maybe half that on Addison. If you have a #6000 or other 40 footer pick them up it results in alot of kids being left on the corner. Also it screws up anybody waiting for a bus until at least the Blue line if you are going west. A bigger bus results in a faster recovery time for that area and keeps you from screwing up scheduling too bad. It sounds to me alot of the changes will be in the loop. #125 to Kedzie maybe #135 to Kedzie if it hasn't already, why not the #145 in rush hour a few PM trips end at Grace. You could have those operators become a #156 and return to the garage. The #143 needs to be tied to Kedzie too. Also, there would have to be more #151's from/to Belmont in the rush hour. This route could really use more artics from Kedzie on Michigan avenue in the PM rush hour. There always seems to be a standing load here.

[Busjack]

Either last week or the week before I seen Kedzie artics on the #135 route. Then I saw North Park artics on the #135 the day after. Has there been some type of bus assignment change over here? I thought the assignment was purely North Park's. I don't think it was a fill in either because that day I saw multiple Kedzie artic's on the route.

Did they have K or P run numbers, or was this just based on an observation of the bus fleet numbers?

[BusHunter]

Did they have K or P run numbers, or was this just based on an observation of the bus fleet numbers?

They were Kedzie run numbers.

[Buslover88]

The question is how do you interline with 82 or 92, if the east terminal for each is approximately the lakefront (Marine Dr. for 81, Berwyn-Sheridan (after leaving the Red Line station) for 92).

I was thinking that some runs on #81 and #92 should only go to Kedzie.

If Kedzie started contributing more to the supplementary service on the 22 and 36 (which does already exist), it might help those two routes.

Again, what are you saying? Kedzie does NOT do any trips on #22 and #36.

[rmadisonwi]

Some people in this thread are on the right track...

[Danielsmusic]

Again, what are you saying? Kedzie does NOT do any trips on #22 and #36.

First of all, there ARE Kedzie runs on the 22 and 36, as well as a few Archer runs. I've seen the occasional Chicago, but there ARE supplemental runs. My kid goes to school at North and Clark, and I've seen the buses. There isn't much supplemental stuff, and I think it needs to be increased.

[Danielsmusic]

Since the main reason for NP handling the school runs is because the equipment from FG assigned to 152 is inadequate, and articulated buses are used, are you also advocating moving the buses? That would seem contrary to the other proposal that equipment should be consolidated. Otherwise, you are massively increasing the equipment, and more importantly, the tripper driver cost for the school service.

I was talking to a few NP drivers and they said that their supervisers have been told that the first New Flyer artics are going to Kedzie. Therefore, Kedzie could do supplementary service.

[Danielsmusic]

Also, there would have to be more #151's from/to Belmont in the rush hour. This route could really use more artics from Kedzie on Michigan avenue in the PM rush hour. There always seems to be a standing load here.

A few NP drivers I was talking to said their supervisors said the first New Flyer artics are going to Kedzie. The 151 doesn't run artics from Kedzie on the weekdays because they're needed elsewhere. But, with the Flyer artics, this could easily be fixed.

[jajuan]

A lot of your suggesstions given really make sense and it should be interesting to find out if some of them are among the March changes that have been mentioned and hinted about as the March surprise by madison. I really like the following

125 to Kedzie: This had been assigned to Kedzie before partially and totally after the closing of Limits

135 to Kedzie: If I remember correctly, for a short time after the Limits closing, Kedzie operated some morning runs on this route

143 to Kedzie: Don't know why this was the case from the beginning since the 134 operates from Kedzie

200,201,205: Some or all runs from Forest Glen. Makes sense because 206 operates from here

47 and 51 to 74th also make some sense to me. Maybe a transfer of 52A to 74th could also happen since 52A used to be at 69th which 74th replaced.

[BusExpert32]

First of all, there ARE Kedzie runs on the 22 and 36, as well as a few Archer runs. I've seen the occasional Chicago, but there ARE supplemental runs. My kid goes to school at North and Clark, and I've seen the buses. There isn't much supplemental stuff, and I think it needs to be increased.

What kind of buses did you see at North/Clark? Archer and Kedzie filling runs on the #22 and #36? Since when?

[Chicago13]

What kind of buses did you see at North/Clark? Archer and Kedzie filling runs on the #22 and #36? Since when?

Those are runs most likely tied to the Brown Line project's 3 track operation. I have seen some Chicago runs using New Flyers on Lincoln NB in the PM rush terminating at the Western Brown Line station as recently as last week.

[jajuan]

Those are runs most likely tied to the Brown Line project's 3 track operation. I have seen some Chicago runs using New Flyers on Lincoln NB in the PM rush terminating at the Western Brown Line station as recently as last week.

Yes. The point is the supplemental 3 track runs were operated by Chicago which would be what everyone woud expect to see, not Kedzie or Archer, unless they started just recently. And if they did, everyone wants to know how long Danielmusic has been noticing these Archer and Kedzie runs on 22 and 36. What sorts of buses from Kedzie and Archer had he been seeing on these routes?

[wordguy]

What kind of buses did you see at North/Clark? Archer and Kedzie filling runs on the #22 and #36? Since when?

===I'll have to agree with BusExpert:

#36 has no supplementary runs from other garages.

#22 does have a few rush-hour runs using equipment from Chicago Ave.

[Busjack]

I was talking to a few NP drivers and they said that their supervisers have been told that the first New Flyer artics are going to Kedzie. Therefore, Kedzie could do supplementary service.

Man, talk about garage rumors. The option hasn't yet been exercised, the financing hasn't officially been found, and some drivers say they know where they are going.

[Buslover88]

First of all, there ARE Kedzie runs on the 22 and 36, as well as a few Archer runs. I've seen the occasional Chicago, but there ARE supplemental runs. My kid goes to school at North and Clark, and I've seen the buses. There isn't much supplemental stuff, and I think it needs to be increased.

Okay, if there IS supplement service on #22 and #36, then tell me, when did it start?