My ideal CTA routes/changes

[Busjack]

Yes, I am. I'm actually just going to drop the #42 idea, since it's seeming less feasible every time I think about it. I'm now sticking with the old #38 with the two branches on the south end. New proposal:

38: The south portion of the Green Line should be shut down at all times and replaced with bus service every day. The #38 that ran when the Green Line was under construction should replace it.

My only response to that is to sell it to the 3rd Ward (and probably 15th and 20th Ward) politicians. Also, explain to the FTA how to waive the last about 30 years of the 40 year service life.

If you can get over those hurdles, no objection from me.

[BusExpert32]

My only response to that is to sell it to the 3rd Ward (and probably 15th and 20th Ward) politicians. Also, explain to the FTA how to waive the last about 30 years of the 40 year service life.

If you can get over those hurdles, no objection from me.

Too many hurdles to cancel it for good. Wow, my head is really swimming now, but I will finish this proposal off like this:

12 extension and return of the 16: Are feasible, since not all of the #12 runs would have have to head to Forest Park, but only enough to appropriately increase frequency on a busy Roosevelt corrider, and Lake Street could use local service again.

38: The south portion of the Green Line should not be run on weekends and could be replaced with bus service on weekends and holidays. The #38 that ran when the Green Line was under construction should replace it during those times.

[Busjack]

Too many hurdles to cancel it for good. Wow, my head is really swimming now, but I will finish this proposal off like this:

12 extension and return of the 16: Are feasible, since not all of the #12 runs would have have to head to Forest Park, but only enough to appropriately increase frequency on a busy Roosevelt corrider, and Lake Street could use local service again.

Why do you think the frequency does not meet the demand (other than the proposed bar hopper special)?

As I noted, the West Side Restructuring is over. If CTA couldn't find the demand (as it apparently did for 21 and 90) then ....

[BusExpert32]

Why do you think the frequency does not meet the demand (other than the proposed bar hopper special)?

As I noted, the West Side Restructuring is over. If CTA couldn't find the demand (as it apparently did for 21 and 90) then ....

My major beef with the current #12 is the relocation of its west terminal to Harrison/Central, leaving the busy stretch between Central and Austin to Pace's #305 which runs about every 30 minutes during rush hour, every hour on Saturday, and nothing on Sunday. I said that only a few trips could be extended farther west to at least increase these frequencies somewhat.

[geneking7320]

Yes, I am. I'm actually just going to drop the #42 idea, since it's seeming less feasible every time I think about it. I'm now sticking with the old #38 with the two branches on the south end. New proposal:

38: The south portion of the Green Line should be shut down at all times and replaced with bus service every day. The #38 that ran when the Green Line was under construction should replace it.

I imagine the numbers could justify such a move I just have a problem replacing a non-poluting rail service with a bus which does polute.

Gene King

[jajuan]

Too many hurdles to cancel it for good. Wow, my head is really swimming now, but I will finish this proposal off like this:

12 extension and return of the 16: Are feasible, since not all of the #12 runs would have have to head to Forest Park, but only enough to appropriately increase frequency on a busy Roosevelt corrider, and Lake Street could use local service again.

38: The south portion of the Green Line should not be run on weekends and could be replaced with bus service on weekends and holidays. The #38 that ran when the Green Line was under construction should replace it during those times.

I can't really fall behind any replacement of daytime rail service with much slower bus service even if your proposal is just for weekend service. Even though you're proposing express service similar to the 38 Michigan Express from the Green line reconstruction days, that bus still has to contend with sharing the road with other vehicles while the train zips past all that car traffic. Why would anyone want to give up a ten minute ride for what could be a twenty minute one when a bus still has to contend with other street traffic. Also with the snowstorms we get here, a train in a lot of cases can negotiate that bad weather better than a bus, especially given the snow may no be removed from the streets as quickly as a lot of us would like. That's another factor to consider in a proposal to replace trains with buses.

[artthouwill]

I would suggest the 145 enter Lake Shore at Irving Pk at all times of operation (thus eliminating the 148). If necessary, short turn some 146s at Lake Shore and Sheridan. If it weren't for Truman College, I would suggest rush hour only service for the 145, since most of the route north of Irving Pk parallels the Red Line and most of the passengers actually board along the Lake Shore portion of the route.

[BusExpert32]

I can't really fall behind any replacement of daytime rail service with much slower bus service even if your proposal is just for weekend service. Even though you're proposing express service similar to the 38 Michigan Express from the Green line reconstruction days, that bus still has to contend with sharing the road with other vehicles while the train zips past all that car traffic. Why would anyone want to give up a ten minute ride for what could be a twenty minute one when a bus still has to contend with other street traffic. Also with the snowstorms we get here, a train in a lot of cases can negotiate that bad weather better than a bus, especially given the snow may no be removed from the streets as quickly as a lot of us would like. That's another factor to consider in a proposal to replace trains with buses.

Well, since Busjack was getting irritated by none of our proposals saving money, I came up with the best money saving solution at this point. Actually, I think my proposal for doing this on the weekends only is more than adequate. The southern portion of the Green Line will never be productive, since people going to all the major traffic generators along the line won't use this service. As Busjack put it: anyone who tried the Green Line to get to Hyde Park (the IIT could be thrown in as well) won't do it again since it scared the bleep out of them. Bus service will always dominate in these areas because of the Green Line's reputation, and you don't have to walk far through rough neighborhoods from the bus stop to your destination.

And if anyone would be upset about giving up an unproductive weekend rail line, then I suggest the Red Line.

[Busjack]

Actually, I think my proposal for doing this on the weekends only is more than adequate.

The weekend part of the proposal doesn't bother me.

The thing I figure is that in the old days, there was fare collection on the train, including on such portions as the Lake branch of the Lake-Dan Ryan, on weekends. There were various barriers placed on the platforms so you could only enter the car with the conductor. As I previously mentioned, Evanston was then run with single unit and single operator cars. Also, in those days, just about every route (except the Skokie Swift) had some owl service.

However, when that was eliminated with the transit card system, it became necessary to staff each station with a customer assistant. Thus, at that point it would seem more economical to substitute a bus if there isn't enough traffic entering a station to justify a CA. There was owl service on the Green Line shortly after it reopened, but it didn't last long.

[BusExpert32]

Another round of improvements from me:

13: A new fixed route along the Elston corrider from Milwaukee/Imlay to Clark/Division Red Line.

89: A new fixed route that would start at the Logan Square Blue Line station, then head north on Kedzie, then turn on Foster and head to NEIU. It would run right through he University and exit on Bryn Mawr. And finally, Bryn Mawr to Kedzie and Kedzie to the Devon/Kedzie terminal.

90: Extend it to 63rd/Archer.

205: Extend it to the Northbrook mall.

*About my proposed 90 and 205 extensions, I propose to only to do it if the CTA would be willing to take over service along these entire corriders instead of just a small portion that Busjack finds to be a waste of taxpayer money. What I mean is, what would you guys think if the CTA told Pace to beat it with he #307 and #422 and run service along these corriders themselves?

[Busjack]

*About my proposed 90 and 205 extensions, I propose to only to do it if the CTA would be willing to take over service along these entire corriders instead of just a small portion that Busjack finds to be a waste of taxpayer money. What I mean is, what would you guys think if the CTA told Pace to beat it with he #307 and #422 and run service along these corriders themselves?

Since one of these affects me, I will comment.

The problem with the 422 compared to the old 212 is that the Evanston part was dropped because CTA started competing with it on that portion, resulting in a 15 minute longer ride for those on the outer portion who were left with the 422.

Now, if CTA would instate 20 or 30 minute service to Northbrook Court, and then not say that suburban taxpayers owe it something, fine. I don't see that happening.*

I mentioned somewhere (I think in connection with a private service tirade) that the real answer might be to just can most North Shore Division routes, including 422, and institute something like the community transit call a ride model being used in West Joliet.

That would probably serve the people better in Northbrook and Glenview than a once an hour bus snaking on Shermer and Waukegan roads. It probably would better serve places bypassed by the bus, including the Kohls and Target shopping center and Willow Festival. I mentioned, in connection with Doomsday, to Northbrook politcos that they should look into it, but they weren't interested.

BTW, it would look better on the books because Pace could use Suburban Mobility Funds to pay for it, instead of its general RTA allocation.

_________

*Especially on a route that runs mostly ElDorados.

[BusExpert32]

I mentioned somewhere (I think in connection with a private service tirade) that the real answer might be to just can most North Shore Division routes, including 422, and institute something like the community transit call a ride model being used in West Joliet.

That would probably serve the people better in Northbrook and Glenview than a once an hour bus snaking on Shermer and Waukegan roads. It probably would better serve places bypassed by the bus, including the Kohls and Target shopping center and Willow Festival. I mentioned, in connection with Doomsday, to Northbrook politcos that they should look into it, but they weren't interested.

BTW, it would look better on the books because Pace could use Suburban Mobility Funds to pay for it, instead of its general RTA allocation.

How about this outside of the box idea then:

* The CTA should take over any Pace service in the nearby suburbs that calls for a 40 footer.

* This would result in Pace becoming a transit agency with a fleet of almost all 30 foot El Dorados and paratransit vehicles. And also, Pace service in surrounding suburbs that doesn't call for a 40 footer can be replaced with your idea of a dial a ride model run with either El Dorados or paratransit vehicles.

[Guest metralink]

How about this outside the box idea then:

* The CTA should take over any Pace service in the nearby suburbs that calls for a 40 footer.

* This would result in Pace becoming a transit agency with a fleet of almost all 30 foot El Dorados and paratransit vehicles. And also, Pace service in surrounding suburbs that doesn't call for a 40 footer can be replaced with your idea of a dial a ride model run with either El Dorados or paratransit vehicles.

please explain why the CTA should be expanded into the suburbs. The operating costs will be greater and CTA can't handle what they operate now.

Pace is the legal SUBURBAN BUS AGENCY

[BusExpert32]

please explain why the CTA should be expanded into the suburbs. The operating costs will be greater and CTA can't handle what they operate now.

Pace is the legal SUBURBAN BUS AGENCY

First, the legality of the situation can be changed.

Note, there will be no excess of operating costs, since I proposed that the CTA could completely take over the 40 footer routes, and not duplicate the service. So, whatever money Pace was using for its heavy routes connecting to CTA stations would be given to CTA to run it. Thus, leaving Pace with close to all 30 footers and paratransit vehicle service.

[Busjack]

First, the legality of the situation can be changed.

However, as proven by announcements about Acting CTA Presidents and the like, the politics of the situation cannot. If you can prove that the CTA Board is independent of Daley, and will select someone in conformity with current law, that requires that the Executive Director be a person with experience in public transit, I'll reconsider. However, everyone in the news says that it will be a Daley appointee and a member of his cabinet.

You don't seem to remember Doomsday, when (1) Frank Kruesi and Carole Brown said that the tax increases should all be in the suburbs, and (2) developed a Sunday schedule plan that would have cut all service where CTA had encroached into the suburbs, such as in Evanston.

Thus, CTA recognizes that it serves 40 or so suburbs only when it wants taxes increased there.

You haven't shown that Pace is incapable of doing the job, that CTA is willing to assume the responsibility, or what would be done with the approximately 400 40 foot buses in Pace's fleet. Also, the proposal would split most of the division garages (surely South, West, and North Shore) without CTA having garage space to even house its current fleet. Would CTA run 272 and 565 out of Waukegan, because they sometimes use 40 foot buses? (I guess not, since you said near in suburbs.)

Also, this is inconsistent with your proposal of turning 422 over to CTA, since I said it mostly runs with ElDorados.

Also think of the financial cost, as metralink indicated. CTA supposedly had its pension bailed out by the real estate transfer tax, which isn't generating as expected. Most Pace divisions have 401Ks. How are the drivers going to be integrated into your system?

Metralink is correct about the operating costs, and I am sure trainman can discuss the difference in wage and benefit costs.

But the bottom line--we suburbanites didn't vote for Daley and don't want him running the bus system or his system competing with it.

[trainman8119]

I contend that the systems should be, contraer to popular belief, operated independantly,

within the areas designated when the RTA was created. No matter how hard Pace wants

to operate like the CTA, they can't and shouldn't. They should concentrate on service in

the suburbs and stay there. CTA should abandon the majority of the suburban areas it

serves (such as local Evanston buses). Also, much of the budgetary problems stem

from one agency trying to operate like another. If Pace concentrated on the areas

of service they are proficient with, CTA quit acting like they were trying to run Pace

out of business, and the RTA would quit trying to make Metra the Gold line and

integrating operations and fares into both CTA and Pace, the whole system would

probably end up just fine. If CTA needs to raise fares, fine...shouldn't impact

Pace. If Pace wants to run dial-a-rides (which I still think is foolish...ie. Joliet, although

somehow functional there) only or 30 foot buses or van pools, then so be it. All of these service

boards are so different in how they are operated, yet everyone wants them to be

one in the same.

I know I got totally off topic...but I felt the urge (sorry )

[cta5658]

here's my idea

34: extend to 138th/Indiana only for rush hour, it can make a connection to the #353 and #348

[Zol87]

Would this proposal save any money?:

Put an axe on all weekend Pink, Green, and Purple Line service, and replace the service with express bus routes that only run on weekends and holidays like the old X21.

No way, people need the trains to get around even in the burbs. The Green and Pink serve some lower income areas and they especially need train access 7 days a week. How about improving connections to the train on weekends, especially in the suburbs. For example the only points that you can catch a bus at the Purple line on a Sunday are Davis & Howard.

As Busjack put it: anyone who tried the Green Line to get to Hyde Park (the IIT could be thrown in as well) won't do it again since it scared the bleep out of them. Bus service will always dominate in these areas because of the Green Line's reputation, and you don't have to walk far through rough neighborhoods from the bus stop to your destination.

And if anyone would be upset about giving up an unproductive weekend rail line, then I suggest the Red Line.

The Green line isn't that bad. I've ridden back from Oak Park and Hyde Park (Via Garfield) around midnight and had no problems. you said that "And if anyone would be upset about giving up an unproductive weekend rail line, then I suggest the Red Line." Are you suggesting that the red line cut weekend service as well?

[Zol87]

Another round of improvements from me:

13: A new fixed route along the Elston corrider from Milwaukee/Imlay to Clark/Division Red Line.

89: A new fixed route that would start at the Logan Square Blue Line station, then head north on Kedzie, then turn on Foster and head to NEIU. It would run right through he University and exit on Bryn Mawr. And finally, Bryn Mawr to Kedzie and Kedzie to the Devon/Kedzie terminal.

90: Extend it to 63rd/Archer.

205: Extend it to the Northbrook mall.

*About my proposed 90 and 205 extensions, I propose to only to do it if the CTA would be willing to take over service along these entire corriders instead of just a small portion that Busjack finds to be a waste of taxpayer money. What I mean is, what would you guys think if the CTA told Pace to beat it with he #307 and #422 and run service along these corriders themselves?

I like the first two proposals. Would the #13 also include the Clybourn corridor? The #89 proposal is interesting. It would improve service along the Kedzie corridor and especially in the North Park area. However would it cause competition with the #82 Kimball route?

I don't think that the 205 extension would work well. The CTA does better with routes that start in the city at major transit hubs such as Howard, Jefferson Park, 95th, Forest Park or Midway and serve nearby suburbs that either border the city or have CTA rail service. I notice that the CTA runs more suburban bus service in the nearby north, northwest and west suburbs than it does in the southern and southwestern ones especially south of the city. Northbrook doesn't border the city or have CTA rail service. It is too deep in the burbs and should be Pace's responsibility.

[Busjack]

here's my idea

34: extend to 138th/Indiana only for rush hour, it can make a connection to the #353 and #348

As previously mentioned, 34 originally went to 138-Leyden.

What should really be considered is coordinating service on that corridor. I contend that the 353 to Riverdale bus is a suburban bus in name only, since while the turnaround is in Riverdale, 99% of the route is in Chicago. The part south of 127th to 136th doesn't serve much of anything. If King Dr. needs service south of 95th, CTA should provide it (as trainman indicates). Maybe route 34 that way. (Michigan would still have 119.)

Of course, the real answer would be to extend the Red Line as indicated in the New Start studies, and then route Pace 352, 353, and 359 into wherever the new terminal would be.

[BusExpert32]

No way, people need the trains to get around even in the burbs. The Green and Pink serve some lower income areas and they especially need train access 7 days a week. How about improving connections to the train on weekends, especially in the suburbs. For example the only points that you can catch a bus at the Purple line on a Sunday are Davis & Howard.

The Green line isn't that bad. I've ridden back from Oak Park and Hyde Park (Via Garfield) around midnight and had no problems. you said that "And if anyone would be upset about giving up an unproductive weekend rail line, then I suggest the Red Line." Are you suggesting that the red line cut weekend service as well?

A while ago, I pulled back from axeing all of that service on weekends to only the south portion of the Green Line, and no, I meant that if anyone would be upset with giving up the Green Line on weekends for a bus could use the nearby Red Line.

[BusExpert32]

As previously mentioned, 34 originally went to 138-Leyden.

What should really be considered is coordinating service on that corridor. I contend that the 353 to Riverdale bus is a suburban bus in name only, since while the turnaround is in Riverdale, 99% of the route is in Chicago. The part south of 127th to 136th doesn't serve much of anything. If King Dr. needs service south of 95th, CTA should provide it (as trainman indicates). Maybe route 34 that way. (Michigan would still have 119.)

Of course, the real answer would be to extend the Red Line as indicated in the New Start studies, and then route Pace 352, 353, and 359 into wherever the new terminal would be.

Well, it's really 50-50 right now on "encroachment" for CTA and Pace. You can't just burn the CTA on this one. The CTA runs service in the suburbs, but Pace also consistently runs service in city limits. There's a lot of philosophy here. If you want the CTA to back off the nearby suburbs, then you should believe that Pace should beat it from all city limits as well.

For example:

#250 and #330- no way can they terminate on O'Hare Airport grounds

#270- should terminate at Milwaukee/ Imlay

#290- should terminate at the Lincolnwood Town Center

#319- should be cut back to Harlem

#353- should just be run by the CTA

Midway Feeders- should not be run to Midway Airport, since that's in "Chicago"; maybe Ford

City Mall? No wait, that's in "Chicago" too.

95th/Dan Ryan Pace feeders- same story as Midway, but much deeper into the city, so more emphasis into it

* But you all will probably say that Pace must feed its routes into the CTA stations, without it mattering if the stations are in Chicago city limits or not. But when the CTA feeds its #90 to the Green Line through the suburbs, there's a problem.

[Buslover88]

Well, it's really 50-50 right now on "encroachment" for CTA and Pace. You can't just burn the CTA on this one. The CTA runs service in the suburbs, but Pace also consistently runs service in city limits. There's a lot of philosophy here. If you want the CTA to back off the nearby suburbs, then you should believe that Pace should beat it from all city limits as well.

For example:

#250 and #330- no way can they terminate on O'Hare Airport grounds

#270- should terminate at Milwaukee/ Imlay

#290- should terminate at the Lincolnwood Town Center

#319- should be cut back to Harlem

#353- should just be run by the CTA

Midway Feeders- should not be run to Midway Airport, since that's in "Chicago"; maybe Ford

City Mall? No wait, that's in "Chicago" too.

95th/Dan Ryan Pace feeders- same story as Midway, but much deeper into the city, so more emphasis into it

* But you all will probably say that Pace must feed its routes into the CTA stations, without it mattering if the stations are in Chicago city limits or not. But when the CTA feeds its #90 to the Green Line through the suburbs, there's a problem.

I think you are starting to take this too seriously. I don't think Busjack ever said that Pace routes shouldn't serve places like Midway Airport or Ford City, or CTA serving places like Harlem Green Line or Evanston.

What I think Busjack is speaking of is if you run CTA routes way out into the suburbs into places like Northbrook, Harvey and etc., or if you run Pace routes into a neighborhood like Hyde Park, Lakeview and etc., but I don't think he's speaking of places like Evanston or Riverdale.

In my opinion, both services should run no more than 2 or 3 miles out of their service areas.

[BusExpert32]

I think you are starting to take this too seriously. I don't think Busjack ever said that Pace routes shouldn't serve places like Midway Airport or Ford City, or CTA serving places like Harlem Green Line or Evanston.

What I think Busjack is speaking of is if you run CTA routes way out into the suburbs into places like Northbrook, Harvey and etc., or if you run Pace routes into a neighborhood like Hyde Park, Lakeview and etc., but I don't think he's speaking of places like Evanston or Riverdale.

In my opinion, both services should run no more than 2 or 3 miles out of their service areas.

I'm pretty sure that Busjack stated somewhere that the CTA should pull bus service from Evanston, Skokie, and Oak Park. But anyway, the CTA does run routes outside of 3 miles such as #168 and #169, and Pace does run routes in downtown.

The border line between CTA and Pace territory can always be heavily disputable.

However, I believe that the CTA should run all service that feeds into its rail stations (with no duplication) and Pace should run all service deeper into the suburbs that feeds the suburban Metra stations.

[Buslover88]

But anyway, the CTA does run routes outside of 3 miles such as #168 and #169

Those should be either splitted up or cut then.