My ideal CTA routes/changes

[Busjack]

I'm pretty sure that Busjack stated somewhere that the CTA should pull bus service from Evanston, Skokie, and Oak Park. But anyway, the CTA does run routes outside of 3 miles such as #168 and #169, and Pace does run routes in downtown.

The border line between CTA and Pace territory can always be heavily disputable.

However, I believe that the CTA should run all service that feeds into its rail stations (with no duplication) and Pace should run all service deeper into the suburbs that feeds the suburban Metra stations.

I did say that CTA should pull bus service from Evanston, Skokie, and Oak Park.

Basically my philosophy, which I stated at least on the Yahoo group, if not here, is the following:

1. The agency should be the one that serves the residents who live where they are picked up.
   
2. The RTA should use its powers to stop competition, especially where rule 1 is violated.
   

Based on this philosophy, there might be an argument for the 21 extension, if it is proved that basically people from Chicago ride to North Riverside Plaza. But I wonder if it would be sustainable if rule was like in the days of private enterprise, where someone who didn't have the territory could not pick up local passengers (i.e. United couldn't pick up locals on Touhy east of Kedzie).

The feeder philosophy doesn't work. Based on that theory, 747 to St. Charles would be a CTA route, because it feeds the Forest Park Blue Line Station. I'm sure the CTA wouldn't give a care about maintaining that route. Also, as pointed out, you can't say both that CTA should have 422 and that Pace should have it as community transit, because it runs ElDorados.

All the feeder philosophy proves is that the RTA should more aggressively push its programs of interconnectivity and a universal fare card. What good would it do if, for instance, you rode a Pace 272 (from North Divsion) to Golf Mill and have to transfer to a CTA 270 to get to, say, Oakton Street, and CTA does not honor a Pace transfer. And who would operate the 270/272 interline operated by Northwest Division?

That would be the express route to transit system suicide.

[Busjack]

Those [168, 169] should be either splitted up or cut then.

No, those are private routes that should be so treated.

[Busjack]

Note one exception to my prior post.

In 1997, CTA and Pace made a coordinated decision that CTA would cede certain light routes to Pace, and only provide supplemental service, such as 56A running half way between 270's 20 minute intervals during midday, or cutbacks on 49A and 108. The old 204 and 254 on Saturdays were a similar situation.

I have no quarrel with that if done in a coordinated manner. However, the 90 business was not.

[PACE 834]

I don't know if this applies or not,but are the"L"routes(Yellow Line to Skokie,Blue Line to Forest Park,Green Line to Harlem and Pink Line to Cicero) to be pulled from the suburbs also?

[Tcmetro]

Instead of removing CTA bus routes in the suburbs, Pace should pay CTA to extend city routes further into the suburbs to provide better service to the customers and to get rid of unnecessary transfers. I would hope that CTA routes are extended into the north suburbs, as they get far less Pace service than the south area.

[Guest metralink]

First, the legality of the situation can be changed. The RTA act was just rewritten, probably not for years will this get touched again.

Note, there will be no excess of operating costs, since I proposed that the CTA could completely take over the 40 footer routes, and not duplicate the service. So, whatever money Pace was using for its heavy routes connecting to CTA stations would be given to CTA to run it. Thus, leaving Pace with close to all 30 footers and paratransit vehicle service.

CTA operating costs are more expensive, CTA drivers are paid more than Pace drivers so just replacing the current service would require a hire operaring costs. Plus the cta has no garages in the burbs.

So why would this region do this again?

[Guest metralink]

Well, it's really 50-50 right now on "encroachment" for CTA and Pace. You can't just burn the CTA on this one. The CTA runs service in the suburbs, but Pace also consistently runs service in city limits. There's a lot of philosophy here. If you want the CTA to back off the nearby suburbs, then you should believe that Pace should beat it from all city limits as well.

For example:

#250 and #330- no way can they terminate on O'Hare Airport grounds

#270- should terminate at Milwaukee/ Imlay

#290- should terminate at the Lincolnwood Town Center

#319- should be cut back to Harlem

#353- should just be run by the CTA

Midway Feeders- should not be run to Midway Airport, since that's in "Chicago"; maybe Ford

City Mall? No wait, that's in "Chicago" too.

95th/Dan Ryan Pace feeders- same story as Midway, but much deeper into the city, so more emphasis into it

* But you all will probably say that Pace must feed its routes into the CTA stations, without it mattering if the stations are in Chicago city limits or not. But when the CTA feeds its #90 to the Green Line through the suburbs, there's a problem.

Pace should run express through the city portions with one stop to connect to local cta service at the start of the corridor. This will be more like BRT service providing service to the suburban markets. Why should the suburban residents make a forced transfer, let them ride express to the stations. Service should be designed by markets.

[Buslover88]

I did say that CTA should pull bus service from Evanston, Skokie, and Oak Park.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you, at least on the Evanston (and perhaps Oak Park) part. I disagree because I don't think any real harm is being done by serving those suburbs. They're right off of Chicago, so I don't see a real problem, especially in Oak Park's case. The southbound portion of #91 Austin from North Avenue to Roosevelt serves Oak Park, as well as the eastbound portion of #72 North from Harlem to Austin. I see more of a problem with routes like #97 (goes all the way into Skokie) and #201 (goes all through Evanston if I'm not mistaken).

[Busjack]

I don't know if this applies or not,but are the"L"routes(Yellow Line to Skokie,Blue Line to Forest Park,Green Line to Harlem and Pink Line to Cicero) to be pulled from the suburbs also?

No, because Pace doesn't have an L system.

Instead of removing CTA bus routes in the suburbs, Pace should pay CTA to extend city routes further into the suburbs to provide better service to the customers and to get rid of unnecessary transfers. I would hope that CTA routes are extended into the north suburbs, as they get far less Pace service than the south area.

With what? Each service board gets its statutory allocation of sales tax money. This idea has the same flaw as the Gray Line proposal. Mike Payne said that CTA should buy ME service from Metra. My response: CTA is crying poverty and has no incentive to share. At least his response was that CTA could cut the south side express buses, but since the South Lake Shore Drive restructuring had just happened, that does not appear likely. Payne finally got his opportunity to make a presentation to the RTA, but I predict that's going nowhere. The RTA has discretionary funds, but those are basically used to cover the CTA's existing deficit. These ideas also don't seem to get funded from the Innovation Fund.

As far as Pace having less service in the North Shore, it is because there is less demand. I saw the numbers when they did the restructuring in 2005, and they support my view that most of the North Shore Division could be converted to community transit and serve the area better.

Also, I don't know what the political situation is in the Toronto metro area, but read my prior post about suburban perception of the Daley machine, how it has run CTA, and only thinks that the suburbs are a revenue source (apparently it even thinks the CTA is one too).

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you, at least on the Evanston (and perhaps Oak Park) part. I disagree because I don't think any real harm is being done by serving those suburbs. They're right off of Chicago, so I don't see a real problem, especially in Oak Park's case. The southbound portion of #91 Austin from North Avenue to Roosevelt serves Oak Park, as well as the eastbound portion of #72 North from Harlem to Austin. I see more of a problem with routes like #97 (goes all the way into Skokie) and #201 (goes all through Evanston if I'm not mistaken).

Oak Park I have less of a quarrel, although I don't like the 90 extension overlapping 305, 307, and 318 without any attempt to coordinate with Pace. 72 is clearly in Chicago on the westbound side, and Pace 318 doesn't compete with it.

The Evanston and Skokie situations are clearly historical accidents: Evanston was because Nortran was not ready to step up when the Evanston and Glenview Bus Companies went out of business, and Skokie when CTA discontinued L service on the Niles Center Line (since reinstated on the Skokie Swift). In the Evanston case, I was always bothered by the mix of 201-204 with 208, 212, 213, and 250. Then throw in the Doomsday threat to cut all Evanston service because none of it ran on Sunday, and the competition between 205 and 212 (again a lack of cooperation) getting the far end of 212 rerouted, and you get the basis for my point.

As far as my philosophy of the unit that picks up the people where they live should control, clearly 97 and the 200s are local Evanston and Skokie routes, unless you make the argument that 97 is the Howard bus, but CTA does not, and 215 also serves Howard.

I suppose you can make an argument about retaining the 54A because it was originally a CTA route to Devon, there probably is demand between the city and Old Orchard, and Pace doesn't want to run it. 93 is a similar situation. But certainly there was no justification for the CTA proposal to bring back 13 (Jeff Park to SW Skokie) to compete with 226, which was in the CMAP request list, but apparently not funded, like the 54A was.

[jajuan]

I'll agree with the better coordination part of the argument. That's why I supported the proposal floated some years ago in the state legislature to scrap the three service boards in favor of a new RTA superagency that would theoretically coordinate services more efficiently than the three current service boards seem to be able to do by themselves. That should save some money because you wouldn't need to pay three service board heads $100,000+ and the boards could be streamlined under the new agency. Some on the forum make the argument that the RTA doesn't have sufficient oversight problems or doesn't aggressively enforce the ones it already has, but I would argue the problem is having three service boards in the first place. That's why we have these issues of this agency's service undercuts the other agency's service in terms of how service is provided between city and suburbs and passengers not being able to switch between CTA and Pace as efficiently as in the past because each decided to wage fare wars on the other. In this day and age with more and more people cross commuting between city and burbs for jobs, it's time we had a more efficient, streamlined way of providing bus sevice than the convoluted mess that we have in this region now. The Metra system in its current form seems to work given the distances involved in transporting passengers, but the way bus service is divvied out needs some big improvements.

[Busjack]

I'll agree with the better coordination part of the argument. That's why I supported the proposal floated some years ago in the state legislature to scrap the three service boards in favor of a new RTA superagency that would theoretically coordinate services more efficiently than the three current service boards seem to be able to do by themselves. ...

I agree with that (and supported following the NY MTA model), but don't see how that is possible in the current political environment.

Thus, my other comments are subject to that realization.

[jajuan]

I agree with that (and supported following the NY MTA model), but don't see how that is possible in the current political environment.

Thus, my other comments are subject to that realization.

When I was making my prior post, it occurred to me how the current political climate now makes the idea so much harder to implement especially given the revelations that Pace drivers get 401k's as opposed to CTA drivers paying into the pension plan.

[BusExpert32]

I did say that CTA should pull bus service from Evanston, Skokie, and Oak Park.

Basically my philosophy, which I stated at least on the Yahoo group, if not here, is the following:

1. The agency should be the one that serves the residents who live where they are picked up.
   
2. The RTA should use its powers to stop competition, especially where rule 1 is violated.
   

Based on this philosophy, there might be an argument for the 21 extension, if it is proved that basically people from Chicago ride to North Riverside Plaza. But I wonder if it would be sustainable if rule was like in the days of private enterprise, where someone who didn't have the territory could not pick up local passengers (i.e. United couldn't pick up locals on Touhy east of Kedzie).

The feeder philosophy doesn't work. Based on that theory, 747 to St. Charles would be a CTA route, because it feeds the Forest Park Blue Line Station. I'm sure the CTA wouldn't give a care about maintaining that route. Also, as pointed out, you can't say both that CTA should have 422 and that Pace should have it as community transit, because it runs ElDorados.

All the feeder philosophy proves is that the RTA should more aggressively push its programs of interconnectivity and a universal fare card. What good would it do if, for instance, you rode a Pace 272 (from North Divsion) to Golf Mill and have to transfer to a CTA 270 to get to, say, Oakton Street, and CTA does not honor a Pace transfer. And who would operate the 270/272 interline operated by Northwest Division?

That would be the express route to transit system suicide.

Yes. Pace transfers that CTA doesn't accept would kill it, but the universal transfer that used to be could be reinstated.

The emphasis on the feeder theory could be put on CTA train stations within city limits for the most part. A few of the feeders to stations in the suburbs might work, but there would be those few exceptions, such as the 422 and 747 that Pace could still operate. But with the feeders to Chicago, why couldn't the CTA run service by themselves from places like Jefferson Park to Golf Mill or Howard Red Line to Cumberland Blue Line or O'Hare?

[Busjack]

Yes. Pace transfers that CTA doesn't accept would kill it, but the universal transfer that used to be could But with the feeders to Chicago, why couldn't the CTA run service by themselves from places like Jefferson Park to Golf Mill or Howard Red Line to Cumberland Blue Line or O'Hare?

For the reason I stated. Pace riders would have to make a transfer at Golf Mill to a CTA bus, perhaps to transfer to another Pace bus before hitting Imlay. And what happens to the Pace interline as I previously mentioned, making such a transfer unncessary if there is a J on the schedule? And CTA would howl about competition by the Niles free bus in the 270 situation.

Politically, this is just a way to disassemble the Pace system, and put most of it under a political control that suburbanites will not accept, and which has no interest in suburban service, while, as others point out, seriously increasing costs. Let the CTA take care of its own problems first.

[Buslover88]

I don't like the 90 extension overlapping 305, 307, and 318 without any attempt to coordinate with Pace. 72 is clearly in Chicago on the westbound side, and Pace 318 doesn't compete with it.

Me either. I'd rather see Pace do the extension part of #90.

As far as my philosophy of the unit that picks up the people where they live should control, clearly 97 and the 200s are local Evanston and Skokie routes, unless you make the argument that 97 is the Howard bus, but CTA does not, and 215 also serves Howard.

I agree to this also. Those #200s and #97 are Evanston/Skokie routes and should be ran by Pace in my opinion.

I suppose you can make an argument about retaining the 54A because it was originally a CTA route to Devon, there probably is demand between the city and Old Orchard, and Pace doesn't want to run it.

Where does Chicago end on Cicero up there where #54A runs? I'm asking because I don't know about that area.

[Busjack]

Where does Chicago end on Cicero up there where #54A runs? I'm asking because I don't know about that area.

Irving Park Blue Line station.

Way back, the original idea was north of the Cicero-Montrose loop (when the 54 trolley bus ended there), but at some point it became a feeder for the Blue Line.

[artthouwill]

The purpose of the 90 extension to the Green Line was to connect the Green and Blue Line (O'Hare branch) and cut travel time between the western suburbs and O'Hare. When I was in Oak Park, riding the 90 from the Green Line to the Harlem/Higgins Blue Line station then transferring to the Blue Line made anO'Hare trip less than 1 hour travel time. Without it, I would either have to ride a 307, 305 or 318 to the Forest Park Blue Line and ride all the way around ( about 1 20min to 1 1/2 hrs) or ride the Green Line train downtown (25 min) and transfer to the Blue Line (45 - 50 min downtown to O'Hare). Or I would have to ride a 307 north to Grand, transfer to the 90 and transfer again at the Blue Line at Harlem/Higgins. I actually like the fact that CTA can connect its two rail lines this way and the Pace routes aren't suffering from any loss of passengers as a result of this extension.

[Tcmetro]

Obviously transit in the Chicago needs to be rethought. Scrap CTA, Pace and Metra and create a regional transit system. The region would be divided into subareas where all sales tax collected in that area will be spent on transit in that area.

[Buslover88]

Irving Park Blue Line station.

I didn't word my question right. I meant to ask where the city limits of Chicago ended on #54A.

[MetroShadow]

I didn't word my question right. I meant to ask where the city limits of Chicago ended on #54A.

Devon-ish (or Pratt)...

[Busjack]

Devon-ish (or Pratt)...

Devon (also according to maps).

Basically, that area is the Edens Expressway on the west, and single family homes and a few strip stores on the east. Some office development on the west side south of Devon.

The old 14 bus went from Cicero-Montrose to Devon-Kedzie (as discussed in connection with the Superdawg Feeder). At some point at which I am unaware, the Devon part was cut and N. Cicero/Skokie Blvd. became the 54A. Bill V.'s route description for 54A might help.

[Busjack]

The purpose of the 90 extension to the Green Line was to connect the Green and Blue Line (O'Hare branch) and cut travel time between the western suburbs and O'Hare. When I was in Oak Park, riding the 90 from the Green Line to the Harlem/Higgins Blue Line station then transferring to the Blue Line made anO'Hare trip less than 1 hour travel time. Without it, I would either have to ride a 307, 305 or 318 to the Forest Park Blue Line and ride all the way around ( about 1 20min to 1 1/2 hrs) or ride the Green Line train downtown (25 min) and transfer to the Blue Line (45 - 50 min downtown to O'Hare). Or I would have to ride a 307 north to Grand, transfer to the 90 and transfer again at the Blue Line at Harlem/Higgins. I actually like the fact that CTA can connect its two rail lines this way and the Pace routes aren't suffering from any loss of passengers as a result of this extension.

I'll accept the first 90%, but wonder about the proof that Pace didn't lose ridership. That also brings up the converse of metralink's point that maybe 90 shouldn't drop off northbound or pick up southbound south of Grand, but things don't work that way anymore, except theoretically on the rush hour 270.

CTA sure howled when Pace was running a West Division fare promotion, which I think was the final straw into the state legislature giving the RTA coordination authority (70 ILCS 3615/2.12b), although, since an inquiry depends on 9 RTA directors asking for it, is a sham.

From the reports of CTA cooperating with Pace in changing signs and bus stops in the south overlap zones, maybe both are now being more sensitive.

[BusExpert32]

A few more inquiries:

* What ever happened to what used to be the #312? It appears on maps from 2006, but in 2007 it's off. I don't remember what ever happened with it. There is no direct substitution for it now, so I'm wondering if the CTA could run it if it deserves the service and since Pace is out (similar to the 54A and 93)?

* I know my theory of feeders to CTA train stations was much too obscure, so I propose only a few small routes that enter CTA stations that don't go very far into the burbs to be run by the CTA:

- #209, #210, #215, #225, #240, #241, the old #312? (not sure about this one though), #318, #353 (only the portion in Chicago), #382, and maybe the #307 (but Pace would lose a great deal of ridership, so most likely no)

I proposed the #215 and #307 to be run by the CTA despite their major ridership status for Pace, since the CTA seems to be willing to continue operating in Oak Park, Evanston, and Skokie. They are are probably willing to do so for better connections to their rail lines in the suburbs (90 connects Green to Blue, and 97 connects Yellow to Red and Purple).

[MetroShadow]

A few more inquiries:

* What ever happened to what used to be the #312? It appears on maps from 2006, but in 2007 it's off. I don't remember what ever happened with it. There is no direct substitution for it now, so I'm wondering if the CTA could run it if it deserves the service and since Pace is out (similar to the 54A and 93)?

I think that route was discontinued even before that in 2005 due to low ridership and the 302 fared far better service through Cicero and Berwyn (and Riverside). Service on Ogden between Cicero and Austin are non-existent (and the roads are bad enough that putting a NABI on it would literally break it in two).

[Zol87]

What about the 270, 226, & 290? They serve the same purpose as the CTA buses that enter the burbs. They connect people to jobs, shopping, entertainment, and recreation. The balance between CTA territory and Pace territory is fair in my opinion. These routes help city people get into the burbs and suburban people get int the city in areas that are not near train lines.