Bus Rapid Transit System

[Busjack]

Actually as I understand the map, the proposed dedicated bus lanes only go to 83rd but the route will still end at Stony Island/103rd.

That is what I meant, even if I didn't type it out.

The comparison I was trying to make is that the original map in the Tribune had the "bus only lanes" down to 87th. On the other hand, the zones for the other 3 routes seem to have been expanded from what was indicated in that map to what is now indicted on various presentations on the CTA site. Of course, all is proposed, but what is on the CTA site is much more than the 10.2 miles previously stated, with only Jeffery losing 1/2 mile of dedicated bus lane.

I get 19.1 miles, based on the following:

Jeffery	  67th to 83rd			   279th		 Western to Jeffery		 6Chicago	  Cicero to Michigan		 6.1Halsted	  31st to North			  5

[nextstopchicago]

This is just me, but I'd pay a $0.25 surcharge just to get on any bus rather than waiting. If I was waiting on a corner, and the first bus that came along was $2.25, and I knew that there might be another one coming in the next 2-15 minutes, and it traveled no slower than the one in front of me, I'd still get on the more expensive bus that was there at that moment.

Obviously $130 in the course of a year is money not everyone has or wants to add to their fare (or maybe $100, since some days the cheaper bus might get there first, and then I'd probably take it unless the 'fast bus' was already visible behind it).

I'm just saying from my perspective, and probably from others like me, and extra quarter/ride is anything but a dealbreaker. If the bus is faster, I'd definitely think it's worth it.

[BusExpert32]

I don't understand one thing. Will there be a local 66, 8, and 79 to go along with a BRT route on the same street, or will it only be just one route?

[Busjack]

I don't understand one thing. Will there be a local 66, 8, and 79 to go along with a BRT route on the same street, or will it only be just one route?

The presentation says on page 27:

Combined BRT/local frequencies of 3-6 minutes in peak periods

...

Integrated with but not replacing local bus services

See also the Service Plan slide on page 28.

As I mentioned before, presentations can change, but the FAQs and the like indicate that this will be like the current 14/15 or X route situation, except with the other amenities (traffic signal preemption, "stations," "next bus" display, and dedicated lanes). In fact, there are 2 FAQs saying that.

[Busjack]

The Sun-Times is also indicating another source of money, possibly for this or encouraging people out of their cars and onto the buses, which involves congestion mitigation fees.

[sw4400]

[*]A condition of the BRT grant is

D. Implementing BRT Service Branding(Including unique system livery and identity by the end of phase II)

So my latest take is that any BRT buses will be out of either the mystery exercise of 58 options, or after that the RFP for 900 more (of which we have not heard after the due date). CTA certainly isn't going to be repainting 6400s for that purpose.

As you said Busjack, the buses will have a unique livery and identity. That's what the 58 buses might be for(this is too small of an option just to be continuing deliveries of the DE60LF's)... approx 14 buses per BRT garage(with one or two having an extra bus or two). New Flyer is probably working on these now or soon will be. Look for these to be possibly DE60LFR's(this'll fit the unique identity part of what you said), as far as the livery... your guess is as good as mine. But the former NABI CompoBus color would look good on a BRT bus, IMO. Kedzie and 103rd St. Garages already are getting New Flyer DE60LF's. Sometime soon, Chicago and 77th St. should get or borrow a few so their Bus Operators will get the feel of these buses so when BRT Service starts at these garages, they are familiar with these buses.

[Busjack]

We can speculate all we want, but the way BusHunter was counting the Seattle options, the 58 other buses apparently are from that spec. Odds are, the paint might be different, but they won't be the restyled ones.

[BusHunter]

We can speculate all we want, but the way BusHunter was counting the Seattle options, the 58 other buses apparently are from that spec. Odds are, the paint might be different, but they won't be the restyled ones.

I see you found something I said that I believe has now changed. All indications are now that they will be the restyled ones. According to Daerah's report awhile back under the #4000's arrives thread, people in authority at Kedzie have told him they will be the restyled ones. Also I said that before I knew about the bid awarded for 58 buses seperately.(the newswire link for october)and lastly the report in the CTAtattler about huberman seeing buses with three doors. Logically this would be around the same timeframe as an actual order is placed. Cronologically it appears that the order will end with #4149 then shortly after these 58 rapid transit designed buses will show up. And after that this up to 900 order might start possibly winter 2009 or early 2010 after the pilot with more buses needed to expand to 100 miles BRT. After the expansion in possibly 2011 buses may be received in attempts to retire the novas. But still that might be a little early.

[BusExpert32]

The presentation says on page 27:

See also the Service Plan slide on page 28.

As I mentioned before, presentations can change, but the FAQs and the like indicate that this will be like the current 14/15 or X route situation, except with the other amenities (traffic signal preemption, "stations," "next bus" display, and dedicated lanes). In fact, there are 2 FAQs saying that.

Thanks. So any 60 foot hybrids recieved for BRT service won't retire any 6000s, since BRT routes function just like other CTA express routes- operating both local and express routes along the same corridor, but BRT seems to be more effecient. Also, if the CTA decides to expand BRT service, they would be dramatically increasing the fleet as well.

[Busjack]

Thanks. So any 60 foot hybrids recieved for BRT service won't retire any 6000s, since BRT routes function just like other CTA express routes- operating both local and express routes along the same corridor, but BRT seems to be more effecient. Also, if the CTA decides to expand BRT service, they would be dramatically increasing the fleet as well.

Mostly correct, especially with regard to 8, 66, and 79. However, it appears that there is a direct substitution for 14 (we already have 14 Express and 15 Local), so that would free up what is running there (I supposed mostly NABIs) to go somewhere else. On the other hand, since it appears that there are 40+ NABIs at 103 and most of them are used on 14 (some on 26, and others scattered sightings elsewhere), 58 of whatever isn't going to do the entire job of equipping 4 BRT routes. Since 14 is over a 2 hour round trip, according to the posted schedule, it would take at least 30 buses to keep a 4 minute rush hour headway.

I guess we'll have to wait less than a year and see (at least with regard to the grant phase).

[nextstopchicago]

The 2nd line of the Mexico City BRT plan was launched on Tuesday. Seems to have been a pretty successful opening week, as far as I can tell from a site I look at from time to time. The first line, on Insurgentes running north/south, carries far more than the number it was built for about 3 years ago, and they've added what they call "biarticulated buses" - an artic with 3 segments instead of the normal two. They also changed the transfer point between two portions of the first route in order to diminish the large crowds that would get off the A buses at the former single transfer point.

Line 2 is on a major east-west road called Eje 4, which I think means "Axis four", one of the numbered main boulevards interspersed every mile or two through the city. They ultimately plan 10 routes, I believed, supplementing the 11 or 12 existing subway lines, which are gridded and intertwining, rather than the centrally-oriented system we've got. (While a 'cross-town' route or two arguably makes sense here, Mexico City's different pattern of development, with density across a broad area and no particular center that dominates in the way our downtown does, makes such a system with very high-capacity lines in a gridded network absolutely necessary.)

I may have mentioned back in the spring that we were really impressed with Linea 1 when we visited in April. They're simultaneously getting rid of large numbers of "peseros", little buses that are generally old and high-polluting. So the BRT doesn't represent an enormous expansion of capacity. Instead, it's a real expansion of capacity, a faster ride in more fuel-efficient and cleaner buses. They plan to work in the coming year on the "zero emissions corridor," though that's a misnomer, since it will require electricity from plants that will have emissions. But the emissions per HP will go down.

[Busjack]

A few other things to throw in. If 58 buses would be needed for 30 miles of BRT, then three times that would be needed for 100 miles. ( or about 174 total BRT artics) Also depending on if the actual BRT service gets started before the 58 so called "mystery buses" arrives, the 58 could actually wind up replacing what would be left for #6000's which would be in the 70's when #1000's are done along with up to #4149.

I get your point that if Phase I is started with conventional equipment, the mystery buses would displace those buses, which then would retire whatever is left of the 6000s.

To make it more complicated:

• Based on gray lines on the map, some X routes would become BRT. Therefore, whatever is on say X9, X49, and X54 at that point would be replaced with BRT buses. Of course, even more BRT buses would be needed on routes such as the hypothetical X63.
  
• Based on there already being 30 to 40 buses on 14, if 14 gets BRT equipment, 58 isn't going to cover the demand for buses on (hypothetical) X8, X66 and X79, as well as 14. I figure that at least 36 buses would be needed to cover X8, X66 and X79, if they have a similar frequency to X9 or X80.
  
• As jajuan pointed out, the mileage covered by BRT routes isn't the same as the mileage of streets with dedicated BRT lanes. I get about 42 for the former and 19 for the latter. Your 30 is somewhat in the middle. Obviously, the new buses would have to traverse the entire 42 miles, even if "stations" are on 20 of them.
  

By now, I suppose I and everyone else are confused.

[BusHunter]

I get your point that if Phase I is started with conventional equipment, the mystery buses would displace those buses, which then would retire whatever is left of the 6000s.

To make it more complicated:

• Based on gray lines on the map, some X routes would become BRT. Therefore, whatever is on say X9, X49, and X54 at that point would be replaced with BRT buses. Of course, even more BRT buses would be needed on routes such as the hypothetical X63.
  
• Based on there already being 30 to 40 buses on 14, if 14 gets BRT equipment, 58 isn't going to cover the demand for buses on (hypothetical) X8, X66 and X79, as well as 14. I figure that at least 36 buses would be needed to cover X8, X66 and X79, if they have a similar frequency to X9 or X80.
  
• As jajuan pointed out, the mileage covered by BRT routes isn't the same as the mileage of streets with dedicated BRT lanes. I get about 42 for the former and 19 for the latter. Your 30 is somewhat in the middle. Obviously, the new buses would have to traverse the entire 42 miles, even if "stations" are on 20 of them.
  

By now, I suppose I and everyone else are confused.

To comment on your first point, it sounds to me like if what you are saying is true about the BRT's replacing X routes, that CTA in a way is going to attempt to charge extra for the limited service. Case in point, you ride X9 now for standard fare and in the future you ride for premium fare. Regardless, I don't believe that would work especially if BRT's run in peak directions only, unless that changes and that would most likely be too disruptive to main street parking. Plus BRT would have to run in the midday and I don't see the need yet for that. On the second point, 58 should cover the initial phase. These are only partial routes with no parking to slow down the buses. The bigger question would be how to get those back in place for another trip. The opposite side of the street wouldn't be BRT and would be slower on say a 79th or Chicago route. Although in the latter you could take the Eisenhower expy. 2009 should be an interesting year!! :huh:

[Busjack]

To comment on your first point, it sounds to me like if what you are saying is true about the BRT's replacing X routes, that CTA in a way is going to attempt to charge extra for the limited service. Case in point, you ride X9 now for standard fare and in the future you ride for premium fare. Regardless, I don't believe that would work especially if BRT's run in peak directions only, unless that changes and that would most likely be too disruptive to main street parking. Plus BRT would have to run in the midday and I don't see the need yet for that. On the second point, 58 should cover the initial phase. These are only partial routes with no parking to slow down the buses. The bigger question would be how to get those back in place for another trip. The opposite side of the street wouldn't be BRT and would be slower on say a 79th or Chicago route. Although in the latter you could take the Eisenhower expy. 2009 should be an interesting year!!

It seems like you are equating "no parking in the dedicated lane" with BRT.

The FAQ seems to make a distinction:

Q: When will BRT operate?

A: During the pilot phase, BRT will operate from early morning to mid-evening. In designated areas, dedicated lanes will be used during both morning and evening rush hours, in peak direction.

[sw4400]

It looks like, at least temporarily, BRT plans have been halted. Unless I read wrong here.... http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/new...20&seenIt=1

[DE60LFR 9000 - the b]

It looks like, at least temporarily, BRT plans have been halted. Unless I read wrong here.... http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/new...20&seenIt=1

That sucks. Gotta love the politicians in this state.

[jajuan]

It looks like, at least temporarily, BRT plans have been halted. Unless I read wrong here.... http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/new...20&seenIt=1

What the h---?!? Frank Kruesi was the chief lobbyist on this? After the chaos he caused at the CTA? Good grief. And they wonder why this venture failed for now.

[Busjack]

Well, according to the Sun-Times:

When Peters refused to budge, Daley did the unthinkable. He waved goodbye to $153 million in federal funding.

As a result, Chicago will abandon its futuristic plan to create "bus rapid transit service" in four pilot corridors that would include dedicated lanes during rush periods, traffic lights that turn green automatically for hybrid, articulated CTA buses, fewer bus stops and front and rear boarding by passengers who pay in advance at kiosks or portable fare boxes.

So maybe it isn't temporary. Da Mare doesn't need any stinking federal money.*

Also, it took a lot of digging on the S-T site for me to find this.

In light of that, I'll take down my prior two posts, but save the link to the Sun Times commenting on Kruesi being the lobbyist.

___

*Unless he is betting on better terms in two weeks, as Crain's implied.

[Busjack]

Amazing, that as of this moment, the Tribune doesn't have it. Also, the Sun-Times never put it on the front page of its website, and now has only the headline buried under Transportation. I suppose someone doesn't want to let us know, or doesn't think this is important.

Update: Googling, it appears that Sneed is taking the position implied in the footnote in my prior post.

[Busjack]

Finally something from the Tribune, although albeit only in the Clout Street blog.

[trainman8119]

I would bet the ranch that the Obama administration will reinstitute the funding.

After all, that is all part of his economic plan.

But I can't say that I am unhappy that this has, for the time being, fallen apart.

I am skeptical about it being beneficial. After all, first, we are talking CTA. Second

I see this as a way to get away from basic services, which CTA doesn't always

accomplish well. As this is supposedly planned to be a "test" you can bet when

money dries up again (and you know it will), this "pet project" will continue at

the expense of either higher fares, service will be cut or both.

I would have rather seen the $153 million put to maintain and improve current

service before new projects that are a hope at best.

Also...another case of "it's not my fault" on behalf of the city for not meeting the deadline.

High five to the feds for standing up.

[sw4400]

Quote below taken from this article: http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_...-city-hall.html

"The CTA was to have used about $37 million of the $153 million federal grant to buy double-long, hybrid buses to serve the corridors."

What does this mean? Is this just a simple man's term for articulated, or are we talking about something longer than 60'?

[Busjack]

Quote below taken from this article: http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/clout_...-city-hall.html

"The CTA was to have used about $37 million of the $153 million federal grant to buy double-long, hybrid buses to serve the corridors."

What does this mean? Is this just a simple man's term for articulated, or are we talking about something longer than 60'?

Simple man's. Especially since it was Hilkevitch.

What I'm wondering about is if and how this affects, for instance, the mystery order for 58 buses. BTW, I went through the CTA contract awards PDF this morning, and didn't see it on it (the 150 buses were, however).

[nextstopchicago]

Oh well.

But where does this leave the Western Avenue project, which isn't really BRT, but an effort to put some real meaning into an express designation? Articles about approval from the city council back in July said this would start signal priority would start in January, meaning now. Is everything still on schedule?

[Busjack]

For those of you who want to play around with speculation what a New Flyer articulated redesign BRT would look like, here is a blank one on busdrawings.com. Note that copyright notice, however.