Seatless Train on Brown Line

[ArcherRider]

I reading ChicagoTribune.com and saw an article about the CTA in fall on the certain Brown Line train in Rush Hour would not have seats in them? My opinion is a back ideas. What do you people think?

[Busjack]

It might help to post in English, but here is the link.

Carole Brown is lying.

...said CTA chairwoman Carole Brown.

In addition, the CTA cannot buy all the new rail cars it needs until the state comes through with new capital funding for transit, she said.

But then, the article says, a few paragraphs later:

About 400 rail cars being built for the CTA will have some aisle-facing seats. They are set for delivery in 2010.

That's the real reason there aren't additional cars--the order was delayed for 2 years, because CTA originally specified DC traction.

Also, the cramp is on the Brown Line, which has the 3 track problems.

Are the seatless cars going to be in the same place on each train, or does everyone jockey on the platform to be the one of 120 who crams into the car with seats?

Who pays to put the seats back in the cars when the emergency is over? Or is the Brown Line getting cars ready to be scrapped? And it isn't like the 3200s had that many seats, anyway.

The more one thinks about this...

[BusHunter]

You mean to tell me that 8 car trains on the Brown line with Purple line's additional service on the same track south of Belmont is not enough capacity? I wonder why they just didn't go with more aisle facing seating like the test railcar #3407. At least more people could sit down and it would be a better test for the impending purchase of future #5000's, running an 8 car train this way.

[trainman8119]

You mean to tell me that 8 car trains on the Brown line with Purple line's additional service on the same track south of Belmont is not enough capacity? I wonder why they just didn't go with more aisle facing seating like the test railcar #3407. At least more people could sit down and it would be a better test for the impending purchase of future #5000's, running an 8 car train this way.

This whole idea is proposterous to me. For an organization that claims to be providing "service" to people, what a joke. I though the initial single seating on the old Flyer 1600's was bad, then the scary thought of aisle facing seating, and now this. Once again, this shows you that those in charge don't have a clue. They don't have the first idea of what customer service is, or should be, and obviously don't ride it enough either. And if that isn't enough, man, what kind of safety hazarda are being created by shoehorning and overfilling an L car and/or bus. What makes this all worse, these jokers seem to be proud of making proposals like this.

And through it all, the constant whining about lack of $$$$$ again, from an organization that continually moves buses from once garage to another for no real sound reason, then cries about how fuel costs are killing their budget !!!!!!!!

[BusHunter]

This whole idea is proposterous to me. For an organization that claims to be providing "service" to people, what a joke. I though the initial single seating on the old Flyer 1600's was bad, then the scary thought of aisle facing seating, and now this. Once again, this shows you that those in charge don't have a clue. They don't have the first idea of what customer service is, or should be, and obviously don't ride it enough either. And if that isn't enough, man, what kind of safety hazarda are being created by shoehorning and overfilling an L car and/or bus. What makes this all worse, these jokers seem to be proud of making proposals like this.

And through it all, the constant whining about lack of $$$$$ again, from an organization that continually moves buses from once garage to another for no real sound reason, then cries about how fuel costs are killing their budget !!!!!!!!

You know these railcars are not the only thing to become seatless lately. If you look on the O'hare branch, at all the expressway stops they have removed the old shelters where you could sit down and are replacing them with black stand up shelters with no seating. Addison just got theirs this week. Now you can't even sit down before you catch a seatless train. This whole idea is not really senior friendly. It's the seniors and pregnant woman that need the seats the most. Is the CTA trying to turn off seniors in riding the "L " for free? I wonder. What's next a seatless bus ? ( I hope not) Don't be surprised if you see people bringing their own chairs on the " L" . At least then they'll have a seat. :lol:

[Busjack]

What's next a seatless bus ? ( I hope not)

The Trib said no, the Sun-Times said yes.

[Buslover88]

The Trib said no, the Sun-Times said yes.

I just hope the Tribute's right.

This whole idea is proposterous to me. For an organization that claims to be providing "service" to people, what a joke. I though the initial single seating on the old Flyer 1600's was bad, then the scary thought of aisle facing seating, and now this. Once again, this shows you that those in charge don't have a clue. They don't have the first idea of what customer service is, or should be, and obviously don't ride it enough either. And if that isn't enough, man, what kind of safety hazarda are being created by shoehorning and overfilling an L car and/or bus. What makes this all worse, these jokers seem to be proud of making proposals like this.

And through it all, the constant whining about lack of $$$$$ again, from an organization that continually moves buses from once garage to another for no real sound reason, then cries about how fuel costs are killing their budget !!!!!!!!

This is something I can totally agree with you on. The CTA doesn't have no idea about their costumer and that's just sad for a company like them.

[BusExpert32]

I just hope the Tribute's right.

This is something I can totally agree with you on. The CTA doesn't have no idea about their costumer and that's just sad for a company like them.

I must agree. With many senior, disabled, or pregnant customers riding the CTA, eliminating seats in trains (and maybe buses) would only solve capacity issues by discouraging these people from taking the CTA. Is the CTA trying to lose money?

[MVTArider]

The only place for seatless trains in my opinion should be short tram lines like at the Orlando Airport or a terminal to parking garage connection train. On an actual public subway/el train? Please

I doubt they could eliminate seats on buses since I think that would invite lawsuits.

[Busjack]

Is the CTA trying to lose money?

Again, the problem is transit economics. The way just about any government run transit system thinks is that it loses 50% on each rider. The fewer riders, the less they lose, they think, until they have to go into Doomsday. Look at this month's President's Report--additional fares are offset by additional labor costs (have to give overtime) and additional fuel costs are not offset.

This isn't 1922, which was about the last time the (private) transit companies made money in Chicago (except for the motor coach, the rest were bankrupt by 1927). But, even in the 40s, they made enough to have equipment and pension reserves, and pay property taxes. CTA does none of that and still has a huge deficit, even after receiving tax subsidies.

Thus, it does not have an economic incentive to accommodate customers, although it might have a slight political one.

Although the airlines are supposed to be for profit corporations, I am surprised that they are also starting to act this way. And for those who think it might be better in a former communist country (supposedly they invested more in subways than vehicular infrastructure), I saw a documentary on Channel 20 that the Moscow subway was 125% over capacity.

Finally, this is an effect of bad planning through the Kruesi regime. They were so worried about low volume New Start extensions (Circle Line, Ogden Trolley, Block 37, etc.) that they ignored the trunk lines. As the current President's Report indicates, that has also come back to haunt them.

[trainman8119]

Finally, this is an effect of bad planning through the Kruesi regime. They were so worried about low volume New Start extensions (Circle Line, Ogden Trolley, Block 37, etc.) that they ignored the trunk lines. As the current President's Report indicates, that has also come back to haunt them.

Ding ding ding ding ding ding !!!!!!! Bingo !!!!!! What good is anything new, expansive or added if you can't manage what you have currently...something I have trumped for many many years.

[Busjack]

Ding ding ding ding ding ding !!!!!!! Bingo !!!!!! What good is anything new, expansive or added if you can't manage what you have currently...something I have trumped for many many years.

It is good for the concrete and steel erection industries and construction unions. Who do you think writes all the letters to the editor in favor of raising tolls on the Tollway? Who do you think sends out the troops on election day? I'm surprised that they haven't been fully mobilized for the capital bill.

Of course, it isn't good for the riders, but as this thread points out repeatedly, that isn't the priority.

[MVTArider]

... And for those who think it might be better in a former communist country (supposedly they invested more in subways than vehicular infrastructure), I saw a documentary on Channel 20 that the Moscow subway was 125% over capacity....

Thats something interesting I have seen on the travel shows on tv. They strongly recommend public transit in many areas for tourists because it is reliable and efficient for going one place to the next, especially former communist countries, but they also say to avoid rush hours and not to expect a seat as trains are usually at capacity.

Really for the big picture I think that there is not any perfect solution. You just have to work with what is best. It would be foolish to expect everyone to drive a car everywhere, but it would also be foolish to remove all personal vehicles and only have buses/trains everywhere. The key is to find the best combination of roads for cars and the trucks that deliver the goods we consume, and transit options like buses, trains, bike paths, etc. to keep roads from being too congested.

Since the CTA Brown line is filling so much that they are thinking of going seatless with some train cars the CTA should instead be looking at what they can do to improve service on the Brown Line since they have so many riders. Whether that means an even greater frequency or adding an express version I don't know. from observations are their any stations that a lot of people seem to be traveling between? Or is it all of them?

End Rant

[Busjack]

Thats something interesting I have seen on the travel shows on tv. They strongly recommend public transit in many areas for tourists because it is reliable and efficient for going one place to the next, especially former communist countries, but they also say to avoid rush hours and not to expect a seat as trains are usually at capacity.

The premise was that street traffic was even worse, unless you are Putin.

[Busjack]

Since the CTA Brown line is filling so much that they are thinking of going seatless with some train cars the CTA should instead be looking at what they can do to improve service on the Brown Line since they have so many riders. Whether that means an even greater frequency or adding an express version I don't know. from observations are their any stations that a lot of people seem to be traveling between? Or is it all of them?

The point of the Brown Line project was supposedly to add capacity. Theoretically it still has a year to completion.

The debate has been since the delivery of additional cars has been delayed two years, because the rocket scientists then at the CTA specified DC cars when the suppliers wouldn't bid on them, and then had to resolicit (see my previous post), what additional equipment will CTA have to put on the Brown Line when it is completed? There was also the debate about where CTA would store that additional equipment, since it was not expanding the Kimball Yard. One could argue that it could store it at 54th, since the Pink Line isn't using many cars, and has been disassociated from the Blue Line.

My estimate of where the greatest loading is is on the stretch where the Brown Line coincides with the Red and Purple, i.e. from Fullerton to Belmont. The Purple was also made local there to pick up some of the crowd, and the crush standees are pretty much gone at Belmont. Of course, some of this may be affected by half of the Brown Line stations being closed for renovation. If there are other members of the forum who ride onto the Ravenswood branch (i.e. past Southport), please let us know.

Shortturning some cars at Belmont could alleviate some of the shortage, assuming that the signals could handle it. If one really needed cars, the suggestion to run some Blue Line trains only between Jefferson Park and UIC-Halsted may also make sense, as that is the high traffic part of that route. Again, that assumes that the signals can handle it.

[BusHunter]

If you missed this, Wgn's noon broadcast showed the seatless Brown line cars. One of which is #3321. They say it will be ran in tonight's rush hour. The cars are basically the same with half the seats removed and the other half in there original locations. The cars are marked yellow by the doors with the words max on there sides. Huberman claims you can get 20 more people into the cars. To me wouldn't it make more sense to put in longitudinal seating in. You'd have more seats and you could squeeze in more people.

[Busjack]

If you missed this, Wgn's noon broadcast showed the seatless Brown line cars. One of which is #3321. They say it will be ran in tonight's rush hour. The cars are basically the same with half the seats removed and the other half in there original locations. The cars are marked yellow by the doors with the words max on there sides. Huberman claims you can get 20 more people into the cars. To me wouldn't it make more sense to put in longitudinal seating in. You'd have more seats and you could squeeze in more people.

What was interesting is that earlier Tribune reports indicated that they were "seatless cars," but later versions said some seats were left in because the weight the cars would be carrying if they were completely packed would exceed their rated capacity.

[Guest]

The Trib said no, the Sun-Times said yes.

I wouldnt discount seatless buses!. But then were talking about incompetent CTA management. The real problem is that the entire Brown line corridor has been so congested for years and years, more people moving into the neighborhood, the transportation is very good up and down the lakefront so that entices people to use PT more. But we all know its reached its capacity, the eight car service on the Brown line should have been done decades ago. I think the idea of seatless cars is good. There are people who would rather stand than sit then there are people who would rather sit than stand. So it benefits rail passengers either way you look at it. As for seatless buses, now thats a ridiculous idea which I hope CTA dosent implement. I think the seatless cars should be given a chance.

[greenstreet]

What was interesting is that earlier Tribune reports indicated that they were "seatless cars," but later versions said some seats were left in because the weight the cars would be carrying if they were completely packed would exceed their rated capacity.

The initial, early morning Trib report was pretty speculative. It said, "The CTA is expected to announce...." seatless cars. It closed with, "Friday's expected announcement..."

Clearly, the Trib writer (can't call him a reporter) based his report on speculation, in a rush to publish, rather than waiting for the CTA's announcement that they were removing some seats. His later update corrected the misinformation, without addressing it.

Reduced-seating press release

According to the release, they are removing 12 or 14 of the 39 seats on each of six cars (three married pairs).

[geneking7320]

One more thought on the reduced seat Brown line cars...

One of the papers mentioned that those cars would be at the front of the train [operating cab end]. If that is true consider that the Brown line loops at one end [The Loop] and changes ends at Kimball/Lawrence.

So if they run two reduced seat cars per train said cars would be at alternate ends [out of Kimball] upon leaving Kimball.

Gene