Pace stiumulus package

[Busjack]

Not including the order for 58, how many Eldorado's does Pace have?

... Of course if no one on the Pace board rides the buses (even with a bus stop right in front of Pace headquarters), anything is possible.

140 (2600-2741 except 13s). Total options are up to 222.

Of course, I thought that the really strange thing was that Pace Headquarters is served by a contractor route. I also wonder how all the ADA protesters get to there each and every meeting.

[artthouwill]

140 (2600-2741 except 13s). Total options are up to 222.

Of course, I thought that the really strange thing was that Pace Headquarters is served by a contractor route. I also wonder how all the ADA protesters get to there each and every meeting.

Pace as always done a better job of policing the contractors than they do their own divisions..

[MVTArider]

There was a report on WGN Radio News at 1 p.m. that Mark Kirk is apparently getting into a dispute with Pace that it doesn't intend to use the stimulus funds for hybrid buses, while Rocky Donahue gave the usual Pace response (also documented in several months of minutes) that basically a 30 foot hybrid bus doesn't pay, a 30 foot diesel bus uses less fuel than a 40 foot hybrid, and the only open contract Pace has within the time constraints of the stimulus bill is for the 30 footers.

(Caution: comparing different bus operating conditions.)

Since its Pace, I assume most if not all of the routes that the El Doraditos will be on are not stop and start routes in heavy traffic. That would probably be another strike against hybrids IMO since, according to Southwest Transit's Fact Sheet, SW's 2006 New Flyer (D40LFRs) get 5.4 mpg when they are used generally for express service with some stop and go time in Minneapolis, whereas the CTA New Flyer Hybrids were doing well with around 4 mpg operating in Chicago traffic of course.

Youre absolutely right. How does Pace justify the decision to purchase only 30ft buses when there are still a number of routes that would not be suitable for them, in my case the #606.

Hopefully people could manage...

(picture is from Google)

[Busjack]

(Caution: comparing different bus operating conditions.)

Since its Pace, I assume most if not all of the routes that the El Doraditos will be on are not stop and start routes in heavy traffic. That would probably be another strike against hybrids IMO ....

The only ones that would qualify as start and stop would be in Niles, but they already have their Eldorados.

The only other places where Eldorados are now applied are exurbia (Aurora and Elgin) where that might apply, North Shore (where they aren't picking up much of anyone*), and feeders (where the buses run one or two hours a day, and hence can't burn or save much fuel).

Of course, there is the speculation where the next 58 would go.

We got into the start and stop rationale with CTA's hybrids, which seems to be met when the 800s are assigned to downtown routes, but not when the 4000s were put into substitute service for the NABIs, which involve some LSD express service, although also being in stop and go traffic on both extremes of the route. Someone else said they do not "rely" on regenerative braking, but on recharging while cruising. I really don't want to get into that debate again.

Not to mention it again, but the Pace OTR RFP is for hybrids, and thus definitely for expressway service. Of course, with the Tollways always being under construction (more for political than congestion mitigation purposes), any assigned there would be in stop and go conditions.

____________

*Kirk, being from Highland Park, has frequently talked about hybrid buses, and I have had the suspicion for a couple of years that either the city or Kirk wants to swap out the 2006 ElDorados there.

[Guest]

(Caution: comparing different bus operating conditions.)

Since its Pace, I assume most if not all of the routes that the El Doraditos will be on are not stop and start routes in heavy traffic. That would probably be another strike against hybrids IMO since, according to Southwest Transit's Fact Sheet, SW's 2006 New Flyer (D40LFRs) get 5.4 mpg when they are used generally for express service with some stop and go time in Minneapolis, whereas the CTA New Flyer Hybrids were doing well with around 4 mpg operating in Chicago traffic of course.

Hopefully people could manage...

(picture is from Google)

This pic, looks like a NABI operating on the #606 turning south on Elmhurst from Algonquin Rd. :)

[MetroShadow]

This pic, looks like a NABI operating on the #606 turning south on Elmhurst from Algonquin Rd.

I was just about to say that myself.

[Busjack]

Getting back to the topic, since the President was touting recovery.gov, I tried to see if there was anything on this topic. Clicking furiously away, I found the FTA site, I found fairly recent press releases for Metra and CTA,* as of the June 19 releases, but nothing for Pace.

So, I wonder if this is all SNAFUed.

_______

* CTA seems to have started its spending before the official word of the grant.

[trainman8119]

Getting back to the topic, since the President was touting recovery.gov, I tried to see if there was anything on this topic. Clicking furiously away, I found the FTA site, I found fairly recent press releases for Metra and CTA,* as of the June 19 releases, but nothing for Pace.

So, I wonder if this is all SNAFUed.

Here is the line from the CTA notice...

CTA plans to replace as many as 58 60-foot hybrid diesel-electric buses;

Is this a typo in the announcement...or are there 58 hybrids on the way out already ?????

(Busjack..how did you miss this ??? )

[Busjack]

Here is the line from the CTA notice...

Is this a typo in the announcement...or are there 58 hybrids on the way out already ?????

(Busjack..how did you miss this ??? )

I didn't miss it, but again I chalk it up to gummint competence or lack thereof. Also, this not being a CTA thread.

[RIPTA42]

Of course, with the Tollways always being under construction (more for political than congestion mitigation purposes

Off topic, but having done the traffic analysis for nearly the entire Tollway system, I disagree.

[MetroShadow]

I didn't miss it, but again I chalk it up to gummint competence or lack thereof. Also, this not being a CTA thread.

Proofreading and Grammar Nazi-ism is quite important with Federal Bureaucrats, I think :P

[qwantae]

Youre absolutely right. How does Pace justify the decision to purchase only 30ft buses when there are still a number of routes that would not be suitable for them, in my case the #606.

What is going on with Pace? Are they out of their mind like we are at Vermont in a very small town? They need to get it together and buy 40-60 foot (like Orion VII) buses badly before they are retiring the NABI 2401s, which they could've ordered more 40 foots at the beginning the retirement of 2200s Ikarus. If they are not ordering no more 40 foot buses then they need to rebuild/ or rehab the Orion VIs, 40 ft NABI LFs and Nova Classics.

Gosh!! 30 foot will be a more than a headache on #270, 381, 383, 318, 322, of course 352.

[Busjack]

What is going on with Pace? Are they out of their mind like we are at Vermont in a very small town? They need to get it together and buy 40-60 foot (like Orion VII) buses badly before they are retiring the NABI 2401s, which they could've ordered more 40 foots at the beginning the retirement of 2200s Ikarus. If they are not ordering no more 40 foot buses then they need to rebuild/ or rehab the Orion VIs, 40 ft NABI LFs and Nova Classics.

Gosh!! 30 foot will be a more than a headache on #270, 381, 383, 318, 322, of course 352.

I think again people are coming to conclusions without having any facts or indications from Pace.

As I previously noted, the only statement from Pace, either officially or in the news, is that the only contract it has in place within the time limits of ARRA is with ElDorado.

Most of the buses you mention won't be eligible for replacement (at least under normal FTA guidelines) until 2011. Eve if those guidelines don't apply because new buses would be purchased under state capital bills, there is no indication what Pace would buy with that money. As I previously noted, Pace has indicated an intention to buy 45 foot buses.

[MetroShadow]

I think again people are coming to conclusions without having any facts or indications from Pace.

As I previously noted, the only statement from Pace, either officially or in the news, is that the only contract it has in place within the time limits of ARRA is with ElDorado.

Most of the buses you mention won't be eligible for replacement (at least under normal FTA guidelines) until 2011. Eve if those guidelines don't apply because new buses would be purchased under state capital bills, there is no indication what Pace would buy with that money. As I previously noted, Pace has indicated an intention to buy 45 foot buses.

True. All we know is that the Eldorkos contract would be exercised, and I sense that would cause some shuffling anyway. Also, there's that contract for the OTR coaches (although wouldn't it make sense to attempt to contract out the buses in the meantime?)

I know that once the 2401's are gone (The 50 or so buses), you have to make a 1 to 1 exchange (in my opinion). Those NABI's (which are junk) would be replaced (or sent elsewhere) around 2011-13. I'd elect using Gillig or Orion when we have to come back to this issue.

[qwantae]

This pic, looks like a NABI operating on the #606 turning south on Elmhurst from Algonquin Rd.

I know thats right, especially after big pick up at United Airlines on Algonquin Rd.

[Busjack]

... Also, there's that contract for the OTR coaches (although wouldn't it make sense to attempt to contract out the buses in the meantime?).....

I still haven't figured out why Pace, in effect, pulled the requests for contracts for routes 855 and 889, even though both called for the contractors to furnish equipment.

Maybe (as indicated in the Finance Committee Report noted above), they figured that since ARRA was paying for 58 ElDorados, they could divert the previous capital budget money for 38 ElDorados to the OTR proposal, and use grants from wherever (hotly debated where) to run the I55 BRT and Rosemont services themselves. Not being a clairvoyant, I can only surmise. Also, I can only surmise what happens if the ARRA grant gets messed up.

[Busjack]

I just received Moving Forward, which states that Pace is applying for TIGGER grants to purchase and test 10 hybrid paratransits and 10 hybrid 30 footers.

Of course, the release also has the usual stuff on that the ARRA grant is for diesels because of the time constraint, a 30 foot diesel is more efficient than a 40 foot hybrid, etc.

I also wondered why there was a federal program named after a Winnie the Pooh character, but apparently is stands for Transit Investments for Greenhouse Gas and Energy Reduction. Maybe the bus will be orange with stripes.*

I also suppose that since Toyota and GMC can build a hybrid pickup truck, a hybrid paratransit vehicle shouldn't be that difficult.

BTW, also a discussion of Transit Signal Priority in this issue, and why far side stops make sense.

Update: Following the link noted above, it appears that TIGGER is oversubcribed in that the grant applications exceed the appropriation by about 12 to 1 (FAQ 6).

________

*Maybe it will also be introduced by our Jr. Senator, who Roe Conn says sounds like....

[MetroShadow]

I think we also overlooked the 2380's because those are older than the 2401's, but I would assume that Pace would keep them (since they haven't had an RFP for that).

[Busjack]

I think we also overlooked the 2380's because those are older than the 2401's, but I would assume that Pace would keep them (since they haven't had an RFP for that).

According to the Pace 2009 budget, which may now be too high with respect to Ikarus, and a bit too low with respect to Orions (probably balancing out), is that the following are over 12 years:

Type	Acquired Number Age LengthIkarus  1992	   3	 16	40Orion   1992	  11	 16	35Orion   1993	  59	 15	40Nova	1996	  22	 13	40

So, according to Pace, there are 95 buses eligible for replacement under FTA guidelines.

There are 58 ElDorados in this order.

Hence, there not being indications of service or fleet reductions officially from Pace at the moment, there are 37 buses still to replace if and when the ElDo order is received; 22 Nova Classics and 15 Orions. There probably is not an urgent need to replace the Novas, which are undoubtedly low mileage, given how they were used, but the usual caveat should be given that nothing has been said regarding what buses would eventually replace those 37 buses.

[Guest]

SHIP THE NOVA CLASSICS TO ACADEMY!! WE HAVE 16YR OLD ORIONS ON THEIR LAST LEGS, STILL RUNNING HERE, COME ON PACE MAKE A MOVE!

[Busjack]

SHIP THE NOVA CLASSICS TO ACADEMY!! WE HAVE 16YR OLD ORIONS ON THEIR LAST LEGS, STILL RUNNING HERE, COME ON PACE MAKE A MOVE!

Well, since you have Orions ready to replace that's possible. Also, since Academy often gets buses near the end of their service lives, that's possible.

However, first the ElDos (which apparently haven't been funded yet) need to arrive. Then 11 would have to be assigned to SW to displace the Novas. (I'm assuming that NS would get 15 ElDos to replace the Orions there, but not another 8 to displace its Novas).

This does, however, propose a scenario for using ElDos that would not have an impact on Academy's capacity, of which I had not previously thought. I still think you are going to get some ElDos for 696 and 699, and maybe 326 and 616.

I could further speculate, but there probably wouldn't be a point. :rolleyes:

[twyztdmynd]

According to the Pace 2009 budget, which may now be too high with respect to Ikarus, and a bit too low with respect to Orions (probably balancing out), is that the following are over 12 years:

What about MCI D4000's? on 887-8 ?

[MetroShadow]

What about MCI D4000's? on 887-8 ?

The 6900's are about 6 years old...If anything, they need more but South has those 8 for a reason.

I would come up for a suggestion for Colonial or Academy to hand over some of the OTR's for the 600 or 606 though.

But I can definitely see the Eldorko's on the smaller routes (aside from the express routes).

[Busjack]

The 6900's are about 6 years old...If anything, they need more but South has those 8 for a reason.

I would come up for a suggestion for Colonial or Academy to hand over some of the OTR's for the 600 or 606 though.

But I can definitely see the Eldorko's on the smaller routes (aside from the express routes).

Of course two are available because 355 was cut back. However. I did see 6902 in the open garage doorway of the South Holland garage, so I am not sure of its status.

[cta 5555]

From what i been told pace is going to send them back to mci.