2200-series - Updates (Retired)

[trainman8119]

I just got a magazine with an article on the Smithsonian, saying that it got 6719 because someone bought it for them at scrap value, but CTA wasn't willing to sell them 6720. (Similar from the SI official site.) So maybe you have something there.

BTW, the 5000s constitute a similar size order delivered at a similar rate. However, $51,000 a car is sure different than $1.4 million.

I know I am being silly, but you would think for all they trouble they went through to get 6719 back to its original state that the Smithsonian would have finished the job and put the old scripted numbers instead of keeping the style at its retirement.

[Busjack]

Correction to my prior post. The article said that the Smithsonian wasn't willing to pay for 6720, not that CTA wouldn't sell.

[Busjack]

On the main topic, CTA has a solicitation for scrapping rail cars, due 8/7. Cracking it open, the thing of interest to us is that it is for approximately 30 2200s and 70 2400s.

I don't recall a solicitation for the first approximately 110 2200s, but apparently the last 30 aren't under that contract.

Other point is that the pick up is at the Skokie Shops ramp.

As usual, the bid is plus or minus the American Metal Market Maximum for #1 Heavy Melt, and the purchaser agrees that they may only be used as scrap metal.

[BusHunter]

On the main topic, CTA has a solicitation for scrapping rail cars, due 8/7. Cracking it open, the thing of interest to us is that it is for approximately 30 2200s and 70 2400s.

I don't recall a solicitation for the first approximately 110 2200s, but apparently the last 30 aren't under that contract.

Other point is that the pick up is at the Skokie Shops ramp.

As usual, the bid is plus or minus the American Metal Market Maximum for #1 Heavy Melt, and the purchaser agrees that they may only be used as scrap metal.

The purple line has been running about a dozen #2600 cars for over two weeks, so they probably could spare losing #2400 cars. The purple line shouldn't need 120 cars, they only need about 80-90 cars. I think they are just hanging on to the extras so they can rotate around the fleet, as they are old cars and most likely have more maintenance issues. Also some of the #2400's on the Orange line are extras. (They actually need some of them now since they lost #3200's to the Brown line.) By the sound of the solicitation, they are getting ready to deal off 70 #2400's. The question is when? If the bid is due by 8/7, maybe a month or two after?

[Busjack]

...The question is when? If the bid is due by 8/7, maybe a month or two after?

Don't know that, but if the 5000s thread indicates that CTA has received about 280 new cars and has scrapped maybe 110, there seems to be an awful lot of excess that could go quickly. The prior official word was that the fleet was up 90 (~1190 to ~1280), but now we would we talking about almost twice that, although I suppose that part of the 30 (like 20) are now out of service, leaving CTA up 150.

[BusHunter]

Don't know that, but if the 5000s thread indicates that CTA has received about 280 new cars and has scrapped maybe 110, there seems to be an awful lot of excess that could go quickly. The prior official word was that the fleet was up 90 (~1190 to ~1280), but now we would we talking about almost twice that, although I suppose that part of the 30 (like 20) are now out of service, leaving CTA up 150.

Unless CTA is getting off the "we're going to store extra cars" policy, at least with the older cars. They shouldn't really worry about storing the soon to be retired #2200's and #2400's. Those are old cars anyway. I would start the storing when it comes time to retire part of the #2600's. I didn't really understand the Orange line swap recently that puts more #2400's in service. Maybe they intend to send Red line #2600's to the Orange line to swap out the #2400's as the blue line doesn't need many more newer cars and the Purple line could always borrow cars off the Red line. But regardless unless they are going into the extra cars and retiring them, there's no way they could scrap 70 #2400 cars at least until the end of the year.

[Busjack]

... But regardless unless they are going into the extra cars and retiring them, there's no way they could scrap 70 #2400 cars at least until the end of the year.

We now have the combination of (1) whether they have finished the welding on the first about 230 5000s, (2) why they have extra cars now when demand is down because nothing is running south of 63rd, and (3) what they will need when something does run south of 63rd in October.

I concur with you that if the plan is to save 400 2600s until the 7000s, that's about all they should be saving. It also appears that the only real need for more cars consists of the Brownage runs. Maybe they think that when the Red Line is fixed that they can schedule trains on closer intervals.

But I am certainly not the one sitting in that office.

[mkohut]

If you go by Claypool claiming there will be 20 minutes less in a round that should mean less train cars are needed for the Red Line.

[Busjack]

If you go by Claypool claiming there will be 20 minutes less in a round that should mean less train cars are needed for the Red Line.

Not necessarily, since if the train speed goes from 6 mph to 55, they won't be stacked one on top of the other, and can run more frequently.

[BusHunter]

Not necessarily, since if the train speed goes from 6 mph to 55, they won't be stacked one on top of the other, and can run more frequently.

Could be the case. The Red line has been hovering at around 400 cars, before that total was in the 360's, but then we're going back to whether they are storing cars there or not. Howard yard does not empty at rush hour, there's a good 40 cars surplus. Totals should really drop on the Red line when they have all new cars and a faster Dan Ryan. They won't have all those trains trapped in slow zones, which increases the fleet total. In saying that, it makes me wonder why the fleet total didn't drop for the Ryan closure, they are now using slow zone free south side trackage.

[artthouwill]

Not necessarily, since if the train speed goes from 6 mph to 55, they won't be stacked one on top of the other, and can run more frequently.

Could be, but whatever time saved by the speed of the Ryan section will certainly be offset by the ever increasing slow zones on the NSM.

[artthouwill]

Could be the case. The Red line has been hovering at around 400 cars, before that total was in the 360's, but then we're going back to whether they are storing cars there or not. Howard yard does not empty at rush hour, there's a good 40 cars surplus. Totals should really drop on the Red line when they have all new cars and a faster Dan Ryan. They won't have all those trains trapped in slow zones, which increases the fleet total. In saying that, it makes me wonder why the fleet total didn't drop for the Ryan closure, they are now using slow zone free south side trackage.

Trains get backed up frequently on the SSM with Red AND Green Line trains on it. One morning at 5:00 a.m, we sat at 33rd St a good five minutes going SB, AT 5 A.M. waiting for a train to clear 35th St. During Today's peak period this afternoon SB trains were leaving nearly every 2 minutes from 35th.

Also remember that most of this stretch of track is NOT 55 mph. You can only go 15 mph on the 13th St incline. It's only about 15 mph for Green Line trains to switch from the outer tracks to the SSM. It's about 35mph from Cullerton to Cermak, 55 mph Cermak to 25th, 35 mph from 25th to 30th, 55 mph from 30th to 35th (assuming no train is immediately ahead). Then its about 40mph to about 38th St, then its 15mph from there to the Indiana station and continuing to about 41st before picking up a little speed to 43rd.. There's a restricted speed between 47th and 51st due to that slight S curve at about 49th and another restricted speed area from 57th to 59th junction. Continuing west, there isn't enough stretch to gain any speed before turning at Yale and again just before 63rd . Unlike the Ryan, there are more frequent stops and turns on the SSM and Englewood branch. .

Also consider the North Side still needs the frequency, which is why some trains get turned at Roosevelt during peak times. Perhaps they need to turn more back (although I don't know how well that will go over with South Siders).

[BusHunter]

Trains get backed up frequently on the SSM with Red AND Green Line trains on it. One morning at 5:00 a.m, we sat at 33rd St a good five minutes going SB, AT 5 A.M. waiting for a train to clear 35th St. During Today's peak period this afternoon SB trains were leaving nearly every 2 minutes from 35th.

Also remember that most of this stretch of track is NOT 55 mph. You can only go 15 mph on the 13th St incline. It's only about 15 mph for Green Line trains to switch from the outer tracks to the SSM. It's about 35mph from Cullerton to Cermak, 55 mph Cermak to 25th, 35 mph from 25th to 30th, 55 mph from 30th to 35th (assuming no train is immediately ahead). Then its about 40mph to about 38th St, then its 15mph from there to the Indiana station and continuing to about 41st before picking up a little speed to 43rd.. There's a restricted speed between 47th and 51st due to that slight S curve at about 49th and another restricted speed area from 57th to 59th junction. Continuing west, there isn't enough stretch to gain any speed before turning at Yale and again just before 63rd . Unlike the Ryan, there are more frequent stops and turns on the SSM and Englewood branch. .

Also consider the North Side still needs the frequency, which is why some trains get turned at Roosevelt during peak times. Perhaps they need to turn more back (although I don't know how well that will go over with South Siders).

Your last statement hits the needle on the head, I don't believe track speeds play a major part in the use of all the current Red line fleet, that's a result of too many trains or congestion in one space. I wonder though could they turn more trains at Roosevelt back north? Seems to me, the SB Red line is less crowded than when it ran the Dan Ryan, In fact the Green line seems to be gaining ridership. I wonder if all the South side congestion with extra trains is necessary. I wonder if it would have been a better solution to just run a south side only Green line train that circles the loop and turn more Red line trains back at Roosevelt. I guess we'll never know.

BTW, back to topic, #2249-50 was in service yesterday, so it's hiatus in the yard has ended. All ten cars are still in service as of yesterday. Reports are that the final in service train will be today. We shall see.

[Busjack]

... I wonder if it would have been a better solution to just run a south side only Green line train that circles the loop and turn more Red line trains back at Roosevelt. I guess we'll never know.

That gets down to all the statements that the Loop is overcrowded, although certainly less so than when the Lake-Dan Ryan used to run there. Of course, there weren't the Orange and Pink lines then. But it can't help efficiency to cut down the number of trains that go straight through Tower 18.

From statements that Lake recovered from the 1994 closure, but the south side never did, any benefit would be to the west side.

This does go back to a survey cited in the CTA Tattler that the Red Line north was much heavier than south. Maybe fixing the tracks will fix the problem, but the other solution seems to be full time express service on the north side (as indicated by making Wilson a dual platform station, for instance).

[csl3407]

Apparently, yesterday was the last day that the 2200s ran in scheduled service. At least, that was the plan.

Maybe some of our train-spotters can confirm or refute that.

[jcmorris]

Apparently, yesterday was the last day that the 2200s ran in service. At least, that was the plan.

Maybe some of our train-spotters can confirm or refute that.

Bummer. Waited from 17:05 to 17:45 at Clark and Lake yesterday and didn't see one. Plan on sticking around today after work to see if I can spot one as well.

[csl3407]

Bummer. Waited from 17:05 to 17:45 at Clark and Lake yesterday and didn't see one. Plan on sticking around today after work to see if I can spot one as well.

You may not be completely out of luck. An old guy taking pictures on the system, who clearly seemed to think he was "in-the-know", said that the CTA has a special commemorative trip planned for the 2200's next week. It won't replace a revenue trip, but will run in addition to the regular service. Is that reliable? I don't know.

[jcmorris]

You may not be completely out of luck. An old guy taking pictures on the system, who clearly seemed to think he was "in-the-know", said that the CTA has a special commemorative trip planned for the 2200's next week. It won't replace a revenue trip, but will run in addition to the regular service. Is that reliable? I don't know.

Тhis past weekend I went to Skokie Shops and could only see one stripped down car. As of a couple days ago there were still a long line of them at Rosemont Yard, powered on. I plan on checking today to see if that's still the case.

I love the idea of a commerative trip, but would CTA keep it under wraps so close to the event?

[Busjack]

...

I love the idea of a commerative trip, but would CTA keep it under wraps so close to the event?

No, if it is for the public. Yes if it is for the privileged few.

But as I have said earlier, unless they are going to run the 2200s in their original configuration, I don't care. I still have my memories of 1970.

[BusHunter]

If you want to go by facts, Busjack had reported the bid due 8/7 for the scrapping of 30 #2200's cars. If you count the cars at Rosemont paired with the ten still around that leaves 4-6 cars left to be scrapped.

[Busjack]

If you want to go by facts, Busjack had reported the bid due 8/7 for the scrapping of 30 #2200's cars. If you count the cars at Rosemont paired with the ten still around that leaves 4-6 cars left to be scrapped.

Not sure about your math. If the bid is for 30 cars to be scrapped, one would assume that it is for that many, unless, like some requisitions, it doesn't mean what it says.

[BusHunter]

Not sure about your math. If the bid is for 30 cars to be scrapped, one would assume that it is for that many, unless, like some requisitions, it doesn't mean what it says.

If you read between the lines, what this means is not all the #2200's are getting scrapped yet. Some will remain either at Rosemont or more likely at Skokie Shops. Actually if you look at the L rosters, I have 36 cars still to be received at Skokie for scrapping.

[Busjack]

If you read between the lines, what this means is not all the #2200's are getting scrapped yet. Some will remain either at Rosemont or more likely at Skokie Shops. Actually if you look at the L rosters, I have 36 cars still to be received at Skokie for scrapping.

O.K. You imply that there are 6 cars not on that solicitation. Whether they go before the 30 in the solicitation may be another question.

[jcmorris]

No 2200s in the afternoon rush hour yesterday or today. I think they have been pulled from service.

[trainman8119]

On my way to work this morning (4:15am), there was an 8 car string of 2700s (at least some of

the numbers I saw were mid range 2700s) out of service heading to north toward Rosemont.

Spotted the train running behind a regular scheduled in service train just south of Irving Park.

That sounds like it would pretty much make up for 10 2200s being taken out and retired.