CTA Bus Rapid Transit (take two)

[BusHunter]

BusHunter, I agree. A BRT on Cicero would be convenient for those on the NW Side to go to Midway without going through downtown and it might be cheaper to build than an Ashland BRT. And instead of a BRT on Ashland, it would be cheaper to bring back the X9.

They should just bring back the x routes. Is it a realistic assumption that CTA is going to find the cash for several BRT routes? Why have rapid transit service coming in 2020 or later when they could have it now. What's wrong with building your way up? As far as Cicero, just a few years ago the CTA proposed the mid city transitway two blocks away. If they went as far as a rapid transit "L" line proposal, it's mind boggling why they wouldn't pursue a BRT corridor there. In time they probably will get one there but who knows how many years from now that will be. I mean Chicagoians have been waiting 30 years so far for some form of transportation to develop in that corridor. (going back to the crosstown expressway) We're still waiting!!

[jajuan]

I suppose that the consultant's report will sift through the alternatives, since it is an alternatives analysis. There are indications on the CTA's factsheet about such things as serving the Illinois Medical District, being by the United Center, UIC and Malcom X, and the initial part (Courtland to 31st) wouldn't be near north-south rapid transit, except to the extent one could believe that the Pink Line served that corridor (which I doubt).

But if this gets serious, I still contend that "no left turns" for 16 miles is not going to fly when they get around to holding the environmental review hearings. Also, the plan there says it leaves street parking undisturbed, but doesn't really deal with losing one lane each way, reducing Ashland to essentially a two lane street.

The last part of your post about the elimination of left turns from Irving Park to 95th Street is the one part of this that's been sticking in my mind all day. They claim they've been talking to members of the affected communities up this point and I think in their announcement they said it was the community preferred option to do the center bus lanes. And I kept coming back to if that's true who in the community did they talk to? Because I find it hard to believe that most folks living near Ashland from Irving to 95th said they wanted to see the left turns taken away as there are folks who have their cars as an option to get around. My brain kept coming back to who in the world do they think they're fooling? There is no way they talked to a majority of the communities on that whole stretch and they agreed to this part of the proposal. I agree that having no left turns all that way is not going to fly. Another thing that comes to mind is will they keep some form of the local Ashland bus because the current form of the Ashland bus does get a significant senior ridership and having every Ashland bus stopping every half mile with no local stops might present a bit of a hardship for some among that portion of the Ashland ridership as well as members of the disabled community who may also have a harder time walking farther to a bus stop if there's no local bus in place. Either way I agree that this will be quite a hassle and expensive to implement when reviving the X9 would be cheaper and save almost the same amount of time.

[mkohut]

You can add the Circle Line to the list.It would have cover the first part to be build.

Emanuels need to come up with about 10 billion with his connection to get extensions and build any new lines.

[Busjack]

• It was either Western or Ashland, not Cicero, because that's what the Western Corridor planning grant was.
• The Cicero point implies another real reason, which is that Cicero Ave. is under the control of the state (Ill. 50) rather than CDOT. About a month ago, there were the reports that Emanuel couldn't put bike lanes on Jackson, because it was under state jurisdiction, even though US 34 and US 66 were decommissioned there maybe 40 years ago.
• On "not Western because there is both the Ave. and Blvd.," that's probably streetcar thinking. I think art might have been going in the right direction when recommending merging the Blvd. and Ave., and the L station in the middle would be an asset if the BRT stations were in the middle.
• In any event, the central portion of Ashland (at least Lake to Roosevelt) is also Blvd.
• As Skokie pointed out, the Alternatives Analysis consultants never listen to the community until it is too late. They don't get paid as much for suggesting a lower cost alternative, such as no build with signal preemptioin.
• I agree that at some point, the planning money will run out and the X routes again will get consideration.
• But let's see if CTA is withholding the 50-150 artics order because it is waiting to see if it can order buses with left doors.

[mkohut]

This will never happen.In Phrase One they are counting on doors on the left hand side which raises the cost even more.

With a cost of 116 million.Plus, it would limit the amount of routes the bus can be use for.

Plus,i don't think there is a assembly plant set up to add a door on the left hand side for a bus.

[Busjack]

This will never happen.In Phrase One they are counting on doors on the left hand side which raises the cost even more.

With a cost of 116 million.Plus, it would limit the amount of routes the bus can be use for.

Plus,i don't think there is a assembly plant set up to add a door on the left hand side for a bus.

The news coverage last night reminded me...

...This would be similar to the buses on the MBTA Cambridge-Watertown routes, which have two regular doors on the right and one door on the left. Apparently the left door is needed for the underground bus loading zone in the Harvard Square subway station.

So, it can be done.

Now getting into the world of the highly hypothetical...

...If phase one were only the middle section, the buses will still need right doors to cover the outer portions

...The $116 million you cited comes from the Tribune article on the cost of the initial portion, including buses. Thus, just to get the bus purchase part going would need I guess $50 million for the buses. The initial portion only covers 6 miles, so they would need another $100 million to complete the project. coming to a total of $216 million.

Going back to the Tribune article, there is a reference there that "The local No. 9 Ashland bus service would continue to make all regular stops, CTA officials said." I bet that's going to work real efficiently, stuck in traffic in the one street lane each way.

[jtrosario]

Having attended two of the public meetings last year and asking similiar questions to a couple of thoughts posted, here's what I remember from discussions/videos.

Loss of 1 of 2 lanes for cars: Even though there is a loss of one lane, there is also an improvement to the throughput of that lane. For example: currently with 2 lanes, average traffic speed is x mph. WIth 1 lane, the average traffic speed increases to y mph. My recollection was something like x=14 and y=26, so that with 2 lanes at 14mph, the average speed for 1 lane would have to have an average speed of 28mph to make up for it and with all BRT, signal priority improvements, and no traffic turning left, the 1 remaining lane would have an average speed of 26mph. I don't remember the exact numbers given, but the difference was 1 or 2 mph like the example here. (Also personal experience driving next to Light-Rail with signal priority in San Jose, at rush hour and other times were the fastest/easiest to get through even with heavy traffic)

Loss of left turns: Those likely to make left turns will drive down parallel primary streets(also removing some traffic from previous point), those on [Ashland] will use other[side] streets to make a right turn first, then [turn around] to go in the opposite direction. (my interpretation: 3 rights does make a left), Improves safety at Ashland intersections, improves safety for pedestrians at all crossings, including BRT entrances.

Local Bus service: The local Ashland bus still runs on the right side in the remaining lane making all local stops.

Public display attendance: There was good attendance for the choices given and most of the conversations I heard were in support of center lanes running, dedicated lanes, and no removal of parking spaces.

Use: Like many other cities that have BRT[proper- not BRT lite/Jeffery Jump or the old X services], there is an expectation of a significant increase in usage with many opportunities for pedestrian-oriented redevelopment, increased [pedestrain] flow for business, and a significant improvement to areas around all BRT stops. (I personally believe that this will happen best when implemented on the entire route)

Personal notes: I also supported this particular option, and have family members that live one block from Ashland along the BRT route and always drive(like myself). When suggested that they should attend these meeting because they were likely to lose one lane of car lanes AND no Left Turns along Ashland, they were in disbelief, denial, and could not make the time to attend any meetings NOR provide input even via email. I'll be checking again with them this week to see if they care to now(not likely).

[BusHunter]

This will never happen.In Phrase One they are counting on doors on the left hand side which raises the cost even more.

With a cost of 116 million.Plus, it would limit the amount of routes the bus can be use for.

Plus,i don't think there is a assembly plant set up to add a door on the left hand side for a bus.

I agree, it doesn't sound like a good idea. The CTA tattler says some cities use crossovers to get the bus platform on the right side, but CTA claims they are pursueing left side boarding. The CTA Ashland BRT project page http://transitchicago.com/ashlandbrt/#howitworks lists video images as well as pictorial images of what they expect to implement as far as BRT on Ashland. I don't know how they are going to make one lane traffic fly on Ashland, (sounds like they may end up with more traffic on western) but at least they have the sense to have two lanes around the medical district around Polk st. Probably what really needs to be done is to open and close the BRT lanes to traffic under a computerized traffic signalization, (like an express lane opens and closes) but I'm not sure if such technology exists yet.

[Busjack]

In reply to jtrosario:

• I don't see how one gets pedestrian oriented development if the platform is in the middle of the street. Especially if people have to gamble whether to take the local or express. At least on Jeffery, both stop at the same shelters, and the next bus times for both 14 and 15 are displayed.
• I don't see how this improves car and truck flow on Ashland. Maybe someone thinks like Stony Island-Marquette and puts a camera over the left lane of every intersection, but otherwise drivers are going to try to make left turns. Then, if it ever met the sec. 5309 definition of BRT, it ceases to do so. Then is the bus going to push a truck out of the BRT lane?
• As I said with regard to Jeffery, I don't see people willing to be caged in a prepaid fare area in gang territory.
• When it snows, what happens when the two lanes are not distinguishable?
• And as far as people not complaining now, I go back to when the Yellow Line Preferred Alternative turned out to get everybody out in Skokie to denounce it, and you haven't heard anything about it since. I'm sure at this point, most people don't consider this project real, and if they do, they know that the Emanuel administration doesn't listen to the public. But the FTA certainly listens if the environment assessment is flawed.
• Besides that, there is no source of money for this, for the Red Line extension to 130th, the Red Line rebuilding on the North Side, etc. If Emanuel is so convinced that the private in private public partnerships exists for any of these projects, hold a press conference where they step up to the plate.

[See Tea Eh]

Plus,i don't think there is a assembly plant set up to add a door on the left hand side for a bus.

New Flyer has already built artics with left-side doors. They operate in Cleveland, OH, and Eugene, OR, to name two places. Not sure if there are others that have gone with the left-side-door option, but it certainly can be done.

[ChicagoNova]

New Flyer has already built artics with left-side doors. They operate in Cleveland, OH, and Eugene, OR, to name two places. Not sure if there are others that have gone with the left-side-door option, but it certainly can be done.

How about the Xcelsior?

[jajuan]

In reply to jtrosario:

• I don't see how one gets pedestrian oriented development if the platform is in the middle of the street. Especially if people have to gamble whether to take the local or express. At least on Jeffery, both stop at the same shelters, and the next bus times for both 14 and 15 are displayed.
• I don't see how this improves car and truck flow on Ashland. Maybe someone thinks like Stony Island-Marquette and puts a camera over the left lane of every intersection, but otherwise drivers are going to try to make left turns. Then, if it ever met the sec. 5309 definition of BRT, it ceases to do so. Then is the bus going to push a truck out of the BRT lane?
• As I said with regard to Jeffery, I don't see people willing to be caged in a prepaid fare area in gang territory.
• When it snows, what happens when the two lanes are not distinguishable?
• And as far as people not complaining now, I go back to when the Yellow Line Preferred Alternative turned out to get everybody out in Skokie to denounce it, and you haven't heard anything about it since. I'm sure at this point, most people don't consider this project real, and if they do, they know that the Emanuel administration doesn't listen to the public. But the FTA certainly listens if the environment assessment is flawed.
• Besides that, there is no source of money for this, for the Red Line extension to 130th, the Red Line rebuilding on the North Side, etc. If Emanuel is so convinced that the private in private public partnerships exists for any of these projects, hold a press conference where they step up to the plate.

I agree with each point and don't have anything to add beyond that for the time being other than to say every detail that they've revealed of this so far reeks of the parties concerned HAVE NOT LISTENED TO THE PUBLIC so far because my reaction to every detail is "Oh really? I don't believe it" for every detail that they claim is what the public wanted.

[BusHunter]

New Flyer has already built artics with left-side doors. They operate in Cleveland, OH, and Eugene, OR, to name two places. Not sure if there are others that have gone with the left-side-door option, but it certainly can be done.

Yes, the streetsblog link that Kevin has on the home page says they wish to pursue five door buses like the Cleveland health line has(doors on both sides) which is smart in case they ever need to build a station on the right side or use the buses in a non brt like setting. I wonder is New Flyer the only maker of such a bus and if so how can a contract be competitively bid?

[BusHunter]

In reply to jtrosario:

• I don't see how one gets pedestrian oriented development if the platform is in the middle of the street. Especially if people have to gamble whether to take the local or express. At least on Jeffery, both stop at the same shelters, and the next bus times for both 14 and 15 are displayed.
• I don't see how this improves car and truck flow on Ashland. Maybe someone thinks like Stony Island-Marquette and puts a camera over the left lane of every intersection, but otherwise drivers are going to try to make left turns. Then, if it ever met the sec. 5309 definition of BRT, it ceases to do so. Then is the bus going to push a truck out of the BRT lane?
• As I said with regard to Jeffery, I don't see people willing to be caged in a prepaid fare area in gang territory.
• When it snows, what happens when the two lanes are not distinguishable?
• And as far as people not complaining now, I go back to when the Yellow Line Preferred Alternative turned out to get everybody out in Skokie to denounce it, and you haven't heard anything about it since. I'm sure at this point, most people don't consider this project real, and if they do, they know that the Emanuel administration doesn't listen to the public. But the FTA certainly listens if the environment assessment is flawed.
• Besides that, there is no source of money for this, for the Red Line extension to 130th, the Red Line rebuilding on the North Side, etc. If Emanuel is so convinced that the private in private public partnerships exists for any of these projects, hold a press conference where they step up to the plate.

I don't know how their going to keep a paid area seperate from a non paid area when they have no fence or anything blocking a pedestrian from simply crossing the street into the station. I don't like the idea of the station being open either, all anyone needs is a reckless driver running them over while waiting for the bus.

[Busjack]

How about the Xcelsior?

Can't speak to whether there is a 5 door Xcelsior.

Going back to the Boston experience, the question then was whether the frame, with 3 door cut outs, could support the roof equipment for trolley bus operation. I suppose that there would be a similar question whether the lighter frame and composite or fiberglass shell of the Xcelsior would support the roof equipment for a hybrid.

Update: My recollection was of the prior generation. Here is a photo of the current Neoplan-Skoda ETB.

[ChicagoNova]

Can't speak to whether there is a 5 door Xcelsior.

Going back to the Boston experience, the question then was whether the frame, with 3 door cut outs, could support the roof equipment for trolley bus operation. I suppose that there would be a similar question whether the lighter frame and composite or fiberglass shell of the Xcelsior would support the roof equipment for a hybrid.

Update: My recollection was of the prior generation. Here is a photo of the current Neoplan-Skoda ETB.

Check this out. http://www.flickr.com/photos/omnitrans/8045238936/in/faves-78918787@N08/

[Busjack]

Check this out. http://www.flickr.com/photos/omnitrans/8045238936/in/faves-78918787@N08/

That's certainly impressive!

[ChicagoNova]

That's certainly impressive!

Thanks.

[mkohut]

This project is a total disaster.

When you look at the life use of a bus thats alot of money to spend every 12 to 13 years .

If you have the Paulina connector go to the Orange Line.Certainly alot cheaper.

Train Cars last alot longer.

If you go by Claypool ordering the 7000's series.There will be train cars ready to use that don't need ordering.

The money that would be use to buy buses can be use to have the line go pass lake st.

I'll take the speed of a train over a bus.

[Busjack]

This project is a total disaster.

When you look at the life use of a bus thats alot of money to spend every 12 to 13 years .

If you have the Paulina connector go to the Orange Line.Certainly alot cheaper.

Train Cars last alot longer.

If you go by Claypool ordering the 7000's series.There will be train cars ready to use that don't need ordering.

The money that would be use to buy buses can be use to have the line go pass lake st.

I'll take the speed of a train over a bus.

On bus vs. train car, you are apparently talking about $1 million for 12 years vs $2.5 million (estimated cost of the 7000s) for 25-30 years, or essentially a wash.

The main question is what the cost per mile is of appropriating an existing street vs. building new heavy rail. While the proposed central portion could be covered by extending the Paulina connector south of 21st to Archer, as proposed for the Circle Line, one would need to know the price tag of the additional 1+ mile of track, including a bridge over the Chicago River. Then, of course, there would be the cost of new track from 31st to 95th (if there is the right of way) and Lake to Roscoe (assuming that some of the old Metropolitan Elevated right of way is still there, which the Circle Line story didn't, through connecting with the Brown Line). The cost, of course, multiplies, if anyone is considering subway, something that, except punting the Paulina to North and Clybourn portion of the Circle Line, has not been a serious portion of any of the recent New Start proposals.

[mkohut]

Another thing is fuel cost.As i'm sure your aware of how much it was gone up the last couple of days.

I think there is some right of way on Western going south.

Also is the CTA saveing any money with the J14 .If it was a litle more service would be able to add to a line that reality needs it.

[Busjack]

Another thing is fuel cost.As i'm sure your aware of how much it was gone up the last couple of days.

I think there is some right of way on Western going south.

Also is the CTA saveing any money with the J14 .If it was a litle more service would be able to add to a line that reality needs it.

Electricity is no bargain either although CTA has out a requisition to bid in conjunction with the school system.

And go through all the Financial monthly reports on how Karen Walker doesn't have a handle on fuel costs, anyway. BTW, diesel has been pretty stable.

Finally J14 is simply because they got a $10 million grant to do it.

[mkohut]

The point I'm trying to make with J14 is that if it reality save the time they claim it would.They would need 1 or 2 less runs on the route.

[BusHunter]

In response to Busjack, http://journalistsresource.org/studies/environment/transportation/bus-versus-rail# this link helps explain some of the different cost comparisons associated with building BRT,LRT, heavy rail or just a bus line. Basically BRT is the cheapest, which is why most american cities are building BRT systems right now. As far as the former Paulina right of way, most of that has been developed. The land has been vacant nearly 50 years. (structure torn down in '64)

[mkohut]

When you do a real study on this .How is this going to be the cheapest?

1 Lane of traffic for cars in each direct will mean more time in traffic,more fuel being wasted,

This has the makeing of another Block 37 project.

Plus with all the doors on the buses there will hardly be any seats.

Not that the CTA has money for either project.