Pace Hybrids

[Busjack]

Looking on the Pace Current Active bids page, there is a proposal for "The Purchase, Manufacture, and Delivery of Thirty Foot Low Floor Diesel Hybrid Buses," to which I previously alluded, but I can't find where.

Again, I was deceived in that I thought it was for 30 buses, but downloading it, it indicates that it is for 2 30 foot buses. The download states that Pace does have money for this.

The specs indicate a different exterior color and decals, although the standard Pace logo is specified, and in that the fleet number on the roof is to be green, I suppose that the the sides of the bus will be, too.

[jesi2282]

They might end up looking like the CNG NABI 45C's that Pace wanted for the expressway project.

[rotjohns]

Looking on the Pace Current Active bids page, there is a proposal for "The Purchase, Manufacture, and Delivery of Thirty Foot Low Floor Diesel Hybrid Buses," to which I previously alluded, but I can't find where.

Again, I was deceived in that I thought it was for 30 buses, but downloading it, it indicates that it is for 2 30 foot buses. The download states that Pace does have FTA money for this.

The specs indicate a different exterior color and decals, although the standard Pace logo is specified, and in that the fleet number on the roof is to be green, I suppose that the the sides of the bus will be, too.

I would like to know why Pace is so late in doing Hybrid buses? I was in West Virginia over the weekend and saw some really nice looking Hybrid buses for the bus service in Charleston and they are brand new, barely been christened. Now if a small town like Charleston can purchase 5 hybrid buses, why does a big bus company like Pace come so slow in getting their hybrids?

[Busjack]

Start reading about here.* In essence, Pace said that no one made hybrid 30 footers (apparently ElDorado made a few). Also, since hybrid adds about $200K to the cost of a bus, it didn't pay to make a $300K bus a $500K one. Also, with regard to the current ARRA grant, they said that the options were there for the immediate delivery of the current ElDorados, while it would be questionable whether they could bid out and get hybrids by the time the ARRA money had to be spent.

Other transit agencies (such as our Minnesota friends mentioning that Rochester NY rejected some hybrids, which were resold to a Minnesota agency) don't think that the extra cost is worth it either.

_______________

*You can also search for Kirk.

[sw4400]

Start reading about here.* In essence, Pace said that no one made hybrid 30 footers (apparently ElDorado made a few).

What about New Flyer? I think the same time they made the DE40LF, they also made the DE30LF.

They've been making 30-Footers since the Low Floor model was introduced in the early 90's.

[RJL6000]

What about New Flyer? I think the same time they made the DE40LF, they also made the DE30LF.

They offered a DE30LF, but never officially built one. Since the restyle into the LFR, the 30-foot version is currently offered only in the diesel version (D30LFR) - and then, the D30LFR exists only as a demo.

[BusHunter]

Looking on the Pace Current Active bids page, there is a proposal for "The Purchase, Manufacture, and Delivery of Thirty Foot Low Floor Diesel Hybrid Buses," to which I previously alluded, but I can't find where.

Again, I was deceived in that I thought it was for 30 buses, but downloading it, it indicates that it is for 2 30 foot buses. The download states that Pace does have FTA money for this.

The specs indicate a different exterior color and decals, although the standard Pace logo is specified, and in that the fleet number on the roof is to be green, I suppose that the the sides of the bus will be, too.

According to Pace, they want the two hybrid thirty footers to go to Highland Park.

[Busjack]

According to Pace, they want the two hybrid thirty footers to go to Highland Park.

That's what I figured, since the flack came from there, but since you mention it, the Green Page now says that. I don't recall it saying that before now.

[BusHunter]

That's what I figured, since the flack came from there, but since you mention it, the Green Page now says that. I don't recall it saying that before now.

Since were on the subject of Pace Hybrids, I was reading somewhere on the Pace website that the Compobuses are on order. With the elimination of the I-294 corridor limited stop bus recently, are the plans still a go for the Rosemont/South Suburban I-294 corridor that these buses were intended for or am I reading outdated information?

[Busjack]

Since were on the subject of Pace Hybrids, I was reading somewhere on the Pace website that the Compobuses are on order. With the elimination of the I-294 corridor limited stop bus recently, are the plans still a go for the Rosemont/South Suburban I-294 corridor that these buses were intended for or am I reading outdated information?

Appears outdated, in that they did not get the TIGER discretionary grant (the only grant to this area under that program was to CREATE). The Compobuses were part of that grant application. Prior reference.

[Busjack]

I always look forward to the Pace Minutes, and the June one discloses:

Regarding the 2009 capital program, Mr. Brannon explained that there were a number of line item revisions and funding had to be adjusted to reflect the actual grant amounts. The largest item was the change out of a grant line item to purchase eleven 40 foot over the road coaches intended for new express service. The express service was terminated and the grant line item was removed. The funds were reprogrammed to two major line items, engines, transmissions and associated capital to repair buses and facility maintenance.

So, this appears dead.

I wonder how the word was given to MCI?

[Busjack]

The contract awards page indicates that the order for the two 30 foot hybrids went to Daimler, i.e. Orion, for $1,049,998.00. So, I guess they were right that compared to about $290,000 to $310,000 for the Eldorado diesel buses, hybrids aren't that great a deal.

I presume that since all Orion makes is the Orion VI Next Gen, that's what they'll be. Orion did advertise that it now offers both the Allison and BAE hybrid systems.

[qwantae]

The contract awards page indicates that the order for the two 30 foot hybrids went to Daimler, i.e. Orion, for $1,049,998.00. So, I guess they were right that compared to about $290,000 to $310,000 for the Eldorado diesel buses, hybrids aren't that great a deal.

I presume that since all Orion makes is the Orion VI Next Gen, that's what they'll be. Orion did advertise that it now offers both the Allison and BAE hybrid systems.

Hopelly PACE would just order those Orion VI Next Generation for next 40 foot bus order, especially to replace the 1999 NABI LFs.

[Busjack]

Update: I haven't been by Bus Explorer lately, but I guess what a 30 foot Next Gen looks like is this. Just superimpose in you mind what it would look like if painted like the imaginary Pace CNG Compobus, and substitute a battery pack for the CNG roof unit.

Hopelly PACE would just order those Orion VI Next Generation for next 40 foot bus order, especially to replace the 1999 NABI LFs.

I'm sure it depends on who is the low bidder, especially since El Dorado has indicated that it also wants in on that game.

[Busjack]

I'm sure that the alert reader will find the error in the Pace Minutes relating to this topic. Even considering frequent corporate buy-outs, the statement is not correct.

Also, I wonder what the other bidder was.

[rmadisonwi]

I'm sure that the alert reader will find the error in the Pace Minutes relating to this topic. Even considering frequent corporate buy-outs, the statement is not correct.

Also, I wonder what the other bidder was.

Without sifting through nine pages of "The paratransit driver passed me up," what was the factually incorrect statement regarding hybrid buses? I only saw two items even related to hybrids. One was the actual ordinance authorizing a contract, and the other was the board inquiry.

What statement, specifically, was in error?

[Busjack]

Without sifting through nine pages of "The paratransit driver passed me up," what was the factually incorrect statement regarding hybrid buses? I only saw two items even related to hybrids. One was the actual ordinance authorizing a contract, and the other was the board inquiry.

What statement, specifically, was in error?

The answer to the board inquiry. Note also that I disclaimed knowing who the second bidder was. Then look at message #12.

[rmadisonwi]

I guess your statement about corporate buyouts is throwing me off. You don't know who the second bidder was, but you assume that the statement that they had never built a hybrid bus before was incorrect?

[Busjack]

I guess your statement about corporate buyouts is throwing me off. You don't know who the second bidder was, but you assume that the statement that they had never built a hybrid bus before was incorrect?

No, I assume nothing about the second bidder. I have given enough detail to at least figure out it was about the one that bid $1,049,998.00.

[rmadisonwi]

I guess it's just not clear to me that they are referring to Orion when saying that they've never built a hybrid bus before.

Nonetheless, I wasn't there, so I really don't know the context of the conversation, which the minutes do not really capture.

The director asks about a price difference between the "two buses" but it's not clear whether that means that the first bus delivered is going to have a different price from the second bus, or by "two buses" he's referring to the two models, from two different bidders. To say it would be a risk to "have them build both buses without previous experience" implies that the statement is in reference to whoever didn't receive the contract.

[MVTArider]

I guess it's just not clear to me that they are referring to Orion when saying that they've never built a hybrid bus before.

If they were referring to Orion it would be in error to say they haven't built 30' hybrid units as MUNI operates 2007 30' Orion VII hybrid units. (About 30 actually) Granted those are the older styling but I don't think the restyled version changed any structural components, just the cosmetics.

To speculate it could be NABI that was the second bidder. I don't believe they have done a diesel-hybrid powertrain in a 31-LFW model yet.

[Busjack]

I guess the question is the antecedent to "this." I had read it as Daimler, as the question was "if this was a new supplier for Pace's fleet," instead of whether "if they had supplied buses for Pace's fleet." The question implied that this supplier "had not yet supplied buses for Pace's fleet, but now would supply two."

If "this" referred to the anonymous unsuccessful bidder, obviously NABI and ElDorado have been Pace suppliers. So, if any of those were the antecedent, then Ross was wrong. Going back far enough, that would also include Gillig and NovaBus. If one accepts your theory of the antecedent, that would seem to leave the unsuccessful bidder to New Flyer (but Canadians report a DE30LFR on order to Cincinnati), someone not generally in the U.S. market (like Van Hool), or some experimental constructor (but not DesignLine, or a similar Michigan company, since all they make are hybrids).

As far as corporate reorganizations, it it were an Optima, it would be NABI.

Hence, my conclusion is that Ross had a brain cramp, or may have thought that Daimler Commercial Buses North America was supplying a Mercedes (or maybe SETRA) bus, or just didn't know what DCBNA was or that it owned Orion.

My comment about corporate buyouts was that the Orion history page indicated that a Daimler company bought out the owner of Orion in 2000. Hence, just about all the 6000-6161 buses came from some Daimler subsidiary, and after 2002, DCBNA.

However, in that none of you saw it the way I did, I guess it wasn't that obvious. In that sense, the minutes conform to the rule I tried to apply while on a condo board--never move to approve ambiguous minutes.