West Division - Changes & Restructuring

[RJL6000]

A public hearing will be held at the Forest Park Public Library on January 19, 2011 to discuss the restructuring and/or service reduction of the following routes:

 

303: Route will be combined with Route 325 to improve connections to the Melrose Park Metra station and other Pace bus routes. Route 303 will no longer operate on North Avenue east of 19th Avenue (in Melrose Park) to North/9th (riders must transfer to Route 318 to go there) - but will instead operate on North Avenue between 19th and 25th Avenues to link the two soon-to-be-formerly-separate routes.

 

304: To avoid duplication with CTA bus service, route will no longer operate east of the North Riverside Mall during the times that CTA Route 21 is operating to the Mall. Service frequency and hours of operation will be reduced.

 

320: Midday service and select afternoon trips will be discontinued. Route 320 will operate weekday rush periods only.

 

322: To avoid duplication with the CTA Route 21 service, weekday and Saturday trips will no longer operate east of the North Riverside Mall during the times that CTA Route 21 is operating to the Mall. Saturday service will also operate more frequently and will also have expanded hours of operation. Sunday service will remain unchanged, resulting in duplication of only Sunday service between North Riverside Mall and the 54th Avenue CTA Pink Line terminal.

 

325: Route will be combined with Route 303 to improve connections to the Melrose Park Metra station and other Pace bus routes. The portion of the current Route 325 south of North Avenue will be discontinued (no direct replacement service will be provided along that portion of the route). The new combined route is expected to take the 303 route number and the expanded 303 schedule/hours of operation. This could result in Saturday service being restored to 25th Avenue north of North Avenue for the first time since the 1980s as well as the addition of Sunday service on that portion of the route for the first time ever. This new combined route will now effectively become a "circulator" route operating from a CTA Blue Line terminal at one end to a Blue Line station close to the Blue Line terminal at the opposite end of the rail line.

 

Further details will be posted as soon as the public notice is posted on the Pace Web site.

 

Any questions or comments? Feel free to voice your opinions.

[artthouwill]

A public hearing will be held at the Forest Park Public Library on January 19, 2011 to discuss the restructuring and/or service reduction of the following routes:

303: Route will be combined with Route 325 to improve connections to the Melrose Park Metra station and other Pace bus routes. Route 303 will no longer operate on North Avenue east of 19th Avenue (in Melrose Park) to North/9th (riders must transfer to Route 318 to go there) - but will instead operate on North Avenue between 19th and 25th Avenues to link the two soon-to-be-formerly-separate routes.

304: To avoid duplication with CTA bus service, route will no longer operate east of the North Riverside Mall during the times that CTA Route 21 is operating to the Mall. Service frequency and hours of operation will be reduced.

320: Midday service and select afternoon trips will be discontinued. Route 320 will operate weekday rush periods only.

322: To avoid duplication with the CTA Route 21 service, weekday and Saturday trips will no longer operate east of the North Riverside Mall during the times that CTA Route 21 is operating to the Mall. Saturday service will also operate more frequently and will also have expanded hours of operation. Sunday service will remain unchanged, resulting in duplication of only Sunday service between North Riverside Mall and the 54th Avenue CTA Pink Line terminal.

325: Route will be combined with Route 303 to improve connections to the Melrose Park Metra station and other Pace bus routes. The portion of the current Route 325 south of North Avenue will be discontinued (no direct replacement service will be provided along that portion of the route). The new combined route is expected to take the 303 route number and the expanded 303 schedule/hours of operation. This could result in Saturday service being restored to 25th Avenue north of North Avenue for the first time since the 1980s as well as the addition of Sunday service on that portion of the route for the first time ever. This new combined route will now effectively become a "circulator" route operating from a CTA Blue Line terminal at one end to a Blue Line station close to the Blue Line terminal at the opposite end of the rail line.

Further details will be posted as soon as the public notice is posted on the Pace Web site.

Any questions or comments? Feel free to voice your opinions.

Here are my thoughts

I'm okay with cutting the 304 back to N Riverside, but not the 322. There are a lot of people that board from the Pink Line (and through Cicero and Berwyn) that go to jobs beyond N Riverside. This will make an additional transfer necessary and depending on the origin of that passenger, another fare.

tHE 303 and 325 route combination is intriguing, though I don't think the 25th Ave portion will get the weekend service you think it will.

As for the 320, it is only a matter of time before it becomes extinct.

[RJL6000]

Here are my thoughts

{snip}

tHE 303 and 325 route combination is intriguing, though I don't think the 25th Ave portion will get the weekend service you think it will.

However, there is no good bus turnaround at either 19th/North or 25th/North. As such, the changes will apply to the ENTIRE combined route. The other alternative would be to eliminate weekend service totally even on the 19th and Madison portions of the combined route, making the entire 303 route operate on weekdays only.

A third alternative would be to have only weekend service continue to serve the Target and Jewel at North/9th if such runs were to be short-turned (unless the mall's management decides otherwise - see below).

[artthouwill]

However, there is no good bus turnaround at either 19th/North or 25th/North. As such, the changes will apply to the ENTIRE combined route. The other alternative would be to eliminate weekend service totally even on the 19th and Madison portions of the combined route, making the entire 303 route operate on weekdays only.

It could still use the current 9th/North terminus during hours it desn't operate on 25th. Or the Jewel/Target mall as you stated.

[Busjack]

I was going in the same direction as art, especially with Pace relying more on transfers to CTA and the need for an additional fare unless one already has CTA fare media.

It seems like Pace is doing this more frequently, as there was another notice on the bottom of a road construction reroute notice that 208 was no longer going to the Skokie Courthouse, and if you wanted to go there, you had to transfer to 422 (once an hour) or 54A or 205 (CTA).

The mention of 422 gets me back to a political point I made at the time Ask Carole started, and I also made here when 21 and 90 were extended and there was the flap that Pace was running a free ride promotion in West in competition with the CTA routes: in the absence of effective RTA oversight, the overlaps would be resolved by Pace retreating, making Pace service even more unusable to those living further out on the Pace route, thereby even more destroying the Pace system. I'm surprised that there isn't a proposal to cut back 307 to south of Lake St.

As far as 322, I add to art that this was slated for an RTA study for ART (Arterial Rapid Transit), and it is hard for me to foresee that it wouldn't extend to the Pink Line.

As for procedural stuff, this doesn't seem to be the West restructuring scheduled for about now, in the same sense as other restructurings, if only a public hearing to cancel routes is scheduled and not workshops to get public input on where the demand is. Of course, if it is like Highland Park, public input might keep them from pulling the trigger (although I don't see Bellwood having the money to subsidize local service, like HP does).

[Busjack]

It could still use the current 9th/North terminus during hours it desn't operate on 25th. Or the Jewel/Target mall as you stated.

Not knowing where the turn arounds are, I would still tend to agree. These cutbacks have never been used to extend service. Considering how much Pace cut back Saturday service in Feb, 2010, I don't see them adding some now.

[RJL6000]

As for procedural stuff, this doesn't seem to be the West restructuring scheduled for about now, in the same sense as other restructurings, if only a public hearing to cancel routes is scheduled and not workshops to get public input on where the demand is.

Actually, I used the wrong term. Pace calls these "service reductions". During the February 2010 cuts, Routes 696 and 699 were combined in a similar manner to what the combination of Routes 303 and 325 is slated to occur (as were Routes 821 and 822).

[RJL6000]

Not knowing where the turn arounds are, I would still tend to agree. These cutbacks have never been used to extend service. Considering how much Pace cut back Saturday service in Feb, 2010, I don't see them adding some now.

Hence I mentioned a second alternative: Eliminate all weekend service even on the 19th and Madison portions of the route, making the ENTIRE Route 303 available on weekdays only.

[Busjack]

Hence I mentioned a second alternative: Eliminate all weekend service even on the 19th and Madison portions of the route, making the ENTIRE Route 303 available on weekdays only.

Then that gets you to the question of frequency on Madison between Forest Park and 19th. It appears that the current way 303/310/317 are set up (as indicated in the combined schedule) is to provide approximately 20 minute intervals on that portion, with once an hour service on the branches. To even things out, they would have to reschedule 317 on Saturday, although that wouldn't require a hearing.

[RJL6000]

Then that gets you to the question of frequency on Madison between Forest Park and 19th. It appears that the current way 303/310/317 are set up (as indicated in the combined schedule) is to provide approximately 20 minute intervals on that portion, with once an hour service on the branches. To even things out, they would have to reschedule 317 on Saturday, although that wouldn't require a hearing.

And currently, Route 310 also operates on Saturdays, and 317 also runs on Sundays. This means that both routes would have to be "rescheduled" on Saturdays (and possibly 317 on Sundays) in the event that weekend 303 service were to be eliminated.

And the reason why Pace wants to eliminate all 303 trips on North Avenue east of 19th Avenue is not due to low ridership on that portion of the route, but to what the management of the Target/Jewel strip decided: The mall managment does not want any more buses pulling into its property (and I believe that in the case of the Target/Jewel center, it gave Pace 60 days to get out). That would leave absolutely no place at all whatsoever for buses to turn around, especially since the managment of other nearby shopping strips also do not want any Pace buses into their properties.

[artthouwill]

And currently, Route 310 also operates on Saturdays, and 317 also runs on Sundays. This means that both routes would have to be "rescheduled" on Saturdays (and possibly 317 on Sundays) in the event that weekend 303 service were to be eliminated.

And the reason why Pace wants to eliminate all 303 trips on North Avenue east of 19th Avenue is not due to low ridership on that portion of the route, but to what the management of the Target/Jewel strip decided: The mall managment does not want any more buses pulling into their property (and I believe that in the case of the Target/Jewel center, it gave Pace 60 days to get out). That would leave absolutely no place at all whatsoever for buses to turn around, especially since the managment of other nearby shopping strips also do not want any Pace buses into their properties.

I think the only rescheduling needed would be weekdays and only in that extra buses would be needed on the 303. Again, 25th Ave won't require any weekend service so the current 303/310/317 Saturday setup and the 303/317 Sunday lineup should remain unchanged.

[RJL6000]

I think the only rescheduling needed would be weekdays and only in that extra buses would be needed on the 303. Again, 25th Ave won't require any weekend service so the current 303/310/317 Saturday setup and the 303/317 Sunday lineup should remain unchanged.

That seems more and more unlikely, especially since Pace wants to (or the mall management of the Target/Jewel at North/9th forces Pace to) eliminate ALL 303 service on North Avenue east of 19th Avenue (and this would apply to weekends, not just weekdays). Hence, the only way that the current schedule on Madison remains intact is if all service runs on the 25th portion of the route (in addition to the Madison and 19th portions). Otherwise, service on Madison would have to be readjusted since only the 310 and 317 would remain on Saturdays and 317 would become the only Sunday route on Madison. Thus, fewer buses will be needed on the 303.

[Busjack]

Rescheduling aside, it appears that merchants don't see the bus as a means of getting customers to the store, any more.

I'm sure, though, that Pace can find some block to circle, like they did at Brantling when Yorktown kicked them out, and then said they could enter the property but not use it as a layover.

[twyztdmynd]

Actually, I used the wrong term. Pace calls these "service reductions". During the February 2010 cuts, Routes 696 and 699 were combined in a similar manner to what the combination of Routes 303 and 325 is slated to occur (as were Routes 821 and 822).

Also in the incorporation of 473 into parts of 471 and 472. I know this is about West but this kinda fits.

[rotjohns]

Rescheduling aside, it appears that merchants don't see the bus as a means of getting customers to the store, any more.

I'm sure, though, that Pace can find some block to circle, like they did at Brantling when Yorktown kicked them out, and then said they could enter the property but not use it as a layover.

I was just about to say that. It appears to me that management of these properties and others are simply not liking Pace/CTA buses entering their properties for various reasons. The obvious one is tearing up their parking lots, but buses also cause congestions in the parking lot of some of these places. One place to look at is the Forest Park area where Wal-Mart and Ultra Foods are. I'm very surprised that's still operating like it is. If a bus stops to pick up people, you're not supposed to go around the bus as that's grounds for a ticket if a cop sees it. So cars have to wait until the bus picks up everybody. Too many problems could exist here. Look at SW and Chicago Ridge Mall. No buses enter that property at all, you have to walk to 95th for 381 or Ridgeland for 384. It's not convienent, but this is a trend I expect to continue until Pace steps up and begins to build turnarounds like CTA did over the years. I would not be overly shocked if in the future, Ford City Mall management begins to curb Pace and CTA entering their property unless they possible took 72nd street in for the Solo Cup riders. Especially if the mall turns into a convention center if the rumors are true.

Now as far as the 322, I knew this was coming too and this will also continue at other places. But appears to be all about money to me.

[Busjack]

Also in the incorporation of 473 into parts of 471 and 472. I know this is about West but this kinda fits.

Except that I previously noted that the Pace minutes indicate that they "are reviewing the routes again" ....to get more money from HP.

[Busjack]

Look at SW and Chicago Ridge Mall. No buses enter that property at all, you have to walk to 95th for 381 or Ridgeland for 384. It's not convienent, but this is a trend I expect to continue until Pace steps up and begins to build turnarounds like CTA did over the years. I would not be overly shocked if in the future, Ford City Mall management begins to curb Pace and CTA entering their property unless they possible took 72nd street in for the Solo Cup riders. Especially if the mall turns into a convention center if the rumors are true.

There is the mixed bag. There is the transit center in Golf Mill, but that is on the south side away from other traffic. The Niles Proposal was to move it to the north side. While the buses don't enter Randhurst during construction, the plan there* is to have a bus shelter on the property to make it more urban.

Since twy brought it up, I never figured out why 471 and 473 went into Deerbrook, but 212/422 never did, except that Deerbrook is itself fairly vacant, and I doubt that anyone rides the bus into it. It might have been different when HP Transit was private, but certainly not the case today.

________

*Image captured here, but the link no longer works.

[artthouwill]

The mention of 422 gets me back to a political point I made at the time Ask Carole started, and I also made here when 21 and 90 were extended and there was the flap that Pace was running a free ride promotion in West in competition with the CTA routes: in the absence of effective RTA oversight, the overlaps would be resolved by Pace retreating, making Pace service even more unusable to those living further out on the Pace route, thereby even more destroying the Pace system. I'm surprised that there isn't a proposal to cut back 307 to south of Lake St.

[BusHunter]

There is the mixed bag. There is the transit center in Golf Mill, but that is on the south side away from other traffic. The Niles Proposal was to move it to the north side. While the buses don't enter Randhurst during construction, the plan there* is to have a bus shelter on the property to make it more urban.

Since twy brought it up, I never figured out why 471 and 473 went into Deerbrook, but 212/422 never did, except that Deerbrook is itself fairly vacant, and I doubt that anyone rides the bus into it. It might have been different when HP Transit was private, but certainly not the case today.

In tune with everyone else, now the #270's Glenbrook Hospital runs are supposed to be doing layovers at Golf Mill, so I guess they eliminated excessive idleing at the Hospital. Speaking of the #422, I'm surprised they pull into Edens Plaza. Seems a bit small for a big bus. One other thing, would it be too strange to just send the #303 east on North Ave and do a turnaround at North/Harlem. That would probably get more riders on that route than using the #325 routing.

[Busjack]

I couldn't help but wonder also if Pace is planning to send Eldos to the 304 and use the 40 ft buses saved from the 322 and 303/304/320/325 service reductions and ship them to North or Academy.

Don't give them ideas, yourself but I figure that with a surplus of 35 footers and West having gotten rid of the 2 Eldos it had, I think not. Also, I wonder if Brookfield Zoo generates ridership. I agree that this would probably free up 40 footers, although it is not clear from the description what would be done with the remaining part of 322.

Speaking of the #422, I'm surprised they pull into Edens Plaza. Seems a bit small for a big bus.

That goes back to when the service was run by the Village of Wilmette, and the main thing was to get people to Edens Plaza and Old Orchard. However, Edens Plaza doesn't seem as dead as Deerbrook (from a ridership perpective).

One other thing, would it be too strange to just send the #303 east on North Ave and do a turnaround at North/Harlem. That would probably get more riders on that route than using the #325 routing.

Are you basically advocating merging 303 and 318?

There would also be the question whether there are sufficient riders to support 325 in Schiller Park and Franklin Park.

[BusHunter]

Are you basically advocating merging 303 and 318?

There would also be the question whether there are sufficient riders to support 325 in Schiller Park and Franklin Park.

Well, the #325 and #318 would stay as is, so those riders would be unaffected. The #303 would get the riders from Maywood a link with the #72. North avenue itself could use additional service, especially in the rush with Lincoln Tech at 1st Avenue and the Winston Plaza traffic. Cutting the #325 south of North Av. actually would benefit pace with fewer buses needed. That with the other cuts would leave me to believe they no longer have a need for 5-10 buses, if this did happen.

[Guest]

Well, the #325 and #318 would stay as is, so those riders would be unaffected. The #303 would get the riders from Maywood a link with the #72. North avenue itself could use additional service, especially in the rush with Lincoln Tech at 1st Avenue and the Winston Plaza traffic. Cutting the #325 south of North Av. actually would benefit pace with fewer buses needed. That with the other cuts would leave me to believe they no longer have a need for 5-10 buses, if this did happen.

I wish we would get the #326 back and also operate the #325 from West.

[west towns]

I wish we would get the #326 back and also operate the #325 from West.

most likely will never happen, once it's taken away gone for good

[west towns]

And currently, Route 310 also operates on Saturdays, and 317 also runs on Sundays. This means that both routes would have to be "rescheduled" on Saturdays (and possibly 317 on Sundays) in the event that weekend 303 service were to be eliminated.

And the reason why Pace wants to eliminate all 303 trips on North Avenue east of 19th Avenue is not due to low ridership on that portion of the route, but to what the management of the Target/Jewel strip decided: The mall managment does not want any more buses pulling into its property (and I believe that in the case of the Target/Jewel center, it gave Pace 60 days to get out). That would leave absolutely no place at all whatsoever for buses to turn around, especially since the managment of other nearby shopping strips also do not want any Pace buses into their properties.

how do you know Target tossed out Pace, wheres the proof?, combining the two routes makes sense

[west towns]

A public hearing will be held at the Forest Park Public Library on January 19, 2011 to discuss the restructuring and/or service reduction of the following routes:

303: Route will be combined with Route 325 to improve connections to the Melrose Park Metra station and other Pace bus routes. Route 303 will no longer operate on North Avenue east of 19th Avenue (in Melrose Park) to North/9th (riders must transfer to Route 318 to go there) - but will instead operate on North Avenue between 19th and 25th Avenues to link the two soon-to-be-formerly-separate routes.

304: To avoid duplication with CTA bus service, route will no longer operate east of the North Riverside Mall during the times that CTA Route 21 is operating to the Mall. Service frequency and hours of operation will be reduced.

320: Midday service and select afternoon trips will be discontinued. Route 320 will operate weekday rush periods only.

Don't agree with cutting all the 322 trips at North Riverside mall, this will be the death of the route. This makes no sense. Didn't RTA do a BRT study this year showing it goes to the Pink line? Also Cermak is one of the 3 first Pace ART's, did they just give up on this corridor? Riders don't want to transfer to the CTA they want a thru bus, get on and ride. Run the darn thing express between pink line and North Riverside, they will probably pick up more riders and provide a new level of service above the 'local' Route 21.

322: To avoid duplication with the CTA Route 21 service, weekday and Saturday trips will no longer operate east of the North Riverside Mall during the times that CTA Route 21 is operating to the Mall. Saturday service will also operate more frequently and will also have expanded hours of operation. Sunday service will remain unchanged, resulting in duplication of only Sunday service between North Riverside Mall and the 54th Avenue CTA Pink Line terminal.

325: Route will be combined with Route 303 to improve connections to the Melrose Park Metra station and other Pace bus routes. The portion of the current Route 325 south of North Avenue will be discontinued (no direct replacement service will be provided along that portion of the route). The new combined route is expected to take the 303 route number and the expanded 303 schedule/hours of operation. This could result in Saturday service being restored to 25th Avenue north of North Avenue for the first time since the 1980s as well as the addition of Sunday service on that portion of the route for the first time ever. This new combined route will now effectively become a "circulator" route operating from a CTA Blue Line terminal at one end to a Blue Line station close to the Blue Line terminal at the opposite end of the rail line.

Further details will be posted as soon as the public notice is posted on the Pace Web site.

Any questions or comments? Feel free to voice your opinions.