More hybrids coming

[Busjack]

It was announced on the radio, and the CTA Tattler had a link to a Durbin announcement that CTA got a $30 million federal grant for more hybrid articulated buses, presumably about 33.

I guess that's an update to those asking if they were going to replace any Novas.

However, IIRC (and I do) Durbin previously announced a grant that didn't materialize. Also, that announcement includes yet another lakefront transit study plan, this time from Howard to 103rd. I guess the only distinction is that CTA consultants cash in instead of CDOT ones.

[mkohut]

It was announced on the radio, and the CTA Tattler had a link to a Durbin announcement that CTA got a $30 million federal grant for more hybrid articulated buses, presumably about 33.

I guess that's an update to those asking if they were going to replace any Novas.

However, IIRC (and I do) Durbin previously announced a grant that didn't materialize. Also, that announcement includes yet another lakefront transit study plan, this time from Howard to 103rd. I guess the only distinction is that CTA consultants cash in instead of CDOT ones.

Why is 2 million dollars being wasted on another study?

[Sam92]

Maybe 77th will finally have some again. Wonder it they are going to use the same interior as 4150-4207 and what their series number will be since that model is no longer made.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Sam92

[ChicagoNova]

Maybe 77th will finally have some again. Wonder it they are going to use the same exterior as 4150-4207 and what their series number will be since that model is no longer made.

If it's New Flyer, more than likely it will be a DE60LFR.

[Sam92]

If it's New Flyer, more than likely it will be a DE60LFR.

Yeah, I figured that, but I meant series number as in 4000, 3000 etc.... Maybe these will use 7100 like the MANs

[ChicagoNova]

Yeah, I figured that, but I meant series number as in 4000, 3000 etc.... Maybe these will use 7100 like the MANs

7000 Series is what I'm thinking cause 7000-7999 is all clear.

[Sam92]

It was announced on the radio, and the CTA Tattler had a link to a Durbin announcement that CTA got a $30 million federal grant for more hybrid articulated buses, presumably about 33.

I guess that's an update to those asking if they were going to replace any Novas.

However, IIRC (and I do) Durbin previously announced a grant that didn't materialize. Also, that announcement includes yet another lakefront transit study plan, this time from Howard to 103rd. I guess the only distinction is that CTA consultants cash in instead of CDOT ones.

Any idea on when this is supposed to happen?

[sw4400]

I would guess maybe the 4200, 4300, or 4400-series. Then again, if they are the same DE60LF models, why not just start from 4209 and go to 4242? Also, I know the NOVA LFS will start retirement soon, but the CTA needs 40' buses. Some routes can't accommodate articulated buses because of viaduct clearance, turn radius on some routes, or both. The CTA can't run on a roster of articulated buses only.

[Sam92]

I would guess maybe the 4200, 4300, or 4400-series. Then again, if they are the same DE60LF models, why not just start from 4209 and go to 4242? Also, I know the NOVA LFS will start retirement soon, but the CTA needs 40' buses. Some routes can't accommodate articulated buses because of viaduct clearance, turn radius on some routes, or both. The CTA can't run on a roster of articulated buses only.

DE60LF's have been discontinued.

[BusHunter]

It was announced on the radio, and the CTA Tattler had a link to a Durbin announcement that CTA got a $30 million federal grant for more hybrid articulated buses, presumably about 33.

I guess that's an update to those asking if they were going to replace any Novas.

However, IIRC (and I do) Durbin previously announced a grant that didn't materialize. Also, that announcement includes yet another lakefront transit study plan, this time from Howard to 103rd. I guess the only distinction is that CTA consultants cash in instead of CDOT ones.

I'm wondering myself if these buses may have to do something with the rollout of BRT? Why rebrand 53 buses when you could order more than half new with chosen specs. Unless they plan on using them in addition to the 53, or as part of the 53, somewhat as an experiment to a bigger deal coming in the future. With all these repeated budget deficits anyway, the time may be coming to have a bigger artic fleet. Another thing to note in the Durbin press release, is the Wilson (Red) rehab which notes elevator towers. Would they actually rehab this station even though we don't yet know what's going to happen with the red purple modernization whether that be subway or not. I would think they would have to decide on a plan soon, unless there going to rebuild a station twice.

[Busjack]

Since we are reduced to speculation, I'll throw out that they aren't going to be received for at least a year. So, if they are going onto Jeffery BRT, one has to know the deadline of that project. Anyway, it would take $50 million to get the 53 buses they say they need for that project, and they only got $30 m.

Now to throw a couple of my own points out:

• Since you folks are raising whether they will be DE60LFs, DE60LFRs, or whatever, we have to remember that about two years ago there was the fiasco about whether CTA had or had not approved the procurement for the 140 buses. Apparently New Flyer adjusted its production schedule to get over that, but would or could CTA come back and say "we're signing for 33" or have to rebid it? If they have to rebid it, that may let Nova in as a competitor (and they should), but that probably delays delivery another 6 months.
• Note that the release says "to replace a like amount of forty-foot conventional diesel powered buses," not 3 for 4 like Huberman was pawning off when he justified the lease of 150, which did not turn out to be used for the reason he said they would be. I said a while back that Rodriguez gave us the 20% cut in frequency without the corresponding increase in capacity artics would bring. Hence we can go back to the speculation 3 years ago about where to put them. Sam might want to count how many buses are needed to run 79, for instance, and go from there.

[trainman8119]

7000 Series is what I'm thinking cause 7000-7999 is all clear.

Actually those numbers are not. You forget the white elephants numbered 7500-7724 sitting in south

garage lots. As far as we know, they are still on the roster.

[ChicagoNova]

Actually those numbers are not. You forget the white elephants numbered 7500-7724 sitting in south

garage lots. As far as we know, they are still on the roster.

I know that 7000-7499 is clear as well as 8000-9999.

[Busjack]

I know that 7000-7499 is clear as well as 8000-9999.

Basically the whole discussion is irrelevant (remember the 600 series of hybrid articulated buses?), but probably 4208 or 4300 are the most likely.

[Busjack]

I left out of my prior muse about whether CTA would have to rebid that I suppose it could go shopping for assignable options, like it did for the orders for the 4000s and 4150s. Guess we will have to wait to see what it does.

[BusHunter]

Since we are reduced to speculation, I'll throw out that they aren't going to be received for at least a year. So, if they are going onto Jeffery BRT, one has to know the deadline of that project. Anyway, it would take $50 million to get the 53 buses they say they need for that project, and they only got $30 m.

Now to throw a couple of my own points out:

• Since you folks are raising whether they will be DE60LFs, DE60LFRs, or whatever, we have to remember that about two years ago there was the fiasco about whether CTA had or had not approved the procurement for the 140 buses. Apparently New Flyer adjusted its production schedule to get over that, but would or could CTA come back and say "we're signing for 33" or have to rebid it? If they have to rebid it, that may let Nova in as a competitor (and they should), but that probably delays delivery another 6 months.
• Note that the release says "to replace a like amount of forty-foot conventional diesel powered buses," not 3 for 4 like Huberman was pawning off when he justified the lease of 150, which did not turn out to be used for the reason he said they would be. I said a while back that Rodriguez gave us the 20% cut in frequency without the corresponding increase in capacity artics would bring. Hence we can go back to the speculation 3 years ago about where to put them. Sam might want to count how many buses are needed to run 79, for instance, and go from there.

Putting it that way ("replacing a like amount of 40 foot buses") suggests they would not be for BRT, (although DE60LFR's would look nice) but strictly for replacement of existing equipment. Questions remain: How much of a Nova fleet will need replacing after next years service cuts? And also is it there intention to replace all Novas with artics? Or is this just to supplement what is short now? (208 NF's versus 226 NABI's) Like I have said before, if they could get more artics out there cut frequencies maybe they could avoid future service cuts by eliminating manpower. As they cut service anyway there will be overcrowding issues. They need to increase capacity.

[BusHunter]

The Tribune has put out a press release on this subject as well. That article seems to answer one question, that they are installing elevators at the existing Wilson station. So I don't know where a subway fits into that. I know there been planning in the works there for years, maybe they couldn't stop the process once the wheels started turning. The Lakefront study is for LSD bus service. I wonder could they be thinking BRT.

[sw4400]

Putting it that way ("replacing a like amount of 40 foot buses") suggests they would not be for BRT, (although DE60LFR's would look nice) but strictly for replacement of existing equipment. Questions remain: How much of a Nova fleet will need replacing after next years service cuts? And also is it there intention to replace all Novas with artics? Or is this just to supplement what is short now? (208 NF's versus 226 NABI's) Like I have said before, if they could get more artics out there cut frequencies maybe they could avoid future service cuts by eliminating manpower. As they cut service anyway there will be overcrowding issues. They need to increase capacity.

BusHunter, I'm sure that you know that the CTA can't have an all 60' bus roster. Maybe 300 at most, but they need to replace half of those NOVA LFS buses with some 40' buses, as the NOVA LFS buses make up about 46% of the 40' roster. Some routes, as stated previously, aren't artic-friendly due to tight turns or viaducts.

[Busjack]

... Questions remain: How much of a Nova fleet will need replacing after next years service cuts? And also is it there intention to replace all Novas with artics? Or is this just to supplement what is short now? (208 NF's versus 226 NABI's) Like I have said before, if they could get more artics out there cut frequencies maybe they could avoid future service cuts by eliminating manpower. As they cut service anyway there will be overcrowding issues. They need to increase capacity.

As CTA still has not announced that they have a proposed budget (there was a board meeting this afternoon for that purpose, but when I looked a minute ago, no press release on transitchicago.com to that effect) one can't really know. My surmise was by saying that it was a 1-1 replacement, they were increasing capacity in that manner. However, my other posts also indicate that CTA has a habit of b.s.ing the feds to get these grants.

BusHunter, I'm sure that you know that the CTA can't have an all 60' bus roster. Maybe 300 at most, but they need to replace half of those NOVA LFS buses with some 40' buses, as the NOVA LFS buses make up about 46% of the 40' roster. Some routes, as stated previously, aren't artic-friendly due to tight turns or viaducts.

Even though BusHunter brought this up, this one is easy to answer. There still will be 1050 D40LFs even if the Novas were completely replaced, which they certainly won't be by this.

[Sam92]

Since we are reduced to speculation, I'll throw out that they aren't going to be received for at least a year. So, if they are going onto Jeffery BRT, one has to know the deadline of that project. Anyway, it would take $50 million to get the 53 buses they say they need for that project, and they only got $30 m.

Now to throw a couple of my own points out:

• Since you folks are raising whether they will be DE60LFs, DE60LFRs, or whatever, we have to remember that about two years ago there was the fiasco about whether CTA had or had not approved the procurement for the 140 buses. Apparently New Flyer adjusted its production schedule to get over that, but would or could CTA come back and say "we're signing for 33" or have to rebid it? If they have to rebid it, that may let Nova in as a competitor (and they should), but that probably delays delivery another 6 months.
• Note that the release says "to replace a like amount of forty-foot conventional diesel powered buses," not 3 for 4 like Huberman was pawning off when he justified the lease of 150, which did not turn out to be used for the reason he said they would be. I said a while back that Rodriguez gave us the 20% cut in frequency without the corresponding increase in capacity artics would bring. Hence we can go back to the speculation 3 years ago about where to put them. Sam might want to count how many buses are needed to run 79, for instance, and go from there.

Looks like all 33 may go to 77th to help with the 3, 4, 79 and maybe 87. And I see about 20 for 79th alone, maybe more in the rush though.

[ChicagoNova]

Looks like all 33 may go to 77th to help with the 3, 4, 79 and maybe 87. And I see about 20 for 79th alone, maybe more in the rush though.

33 would only b enough to cover at least one artic worthy route.

[BusHunter]

As CTA still has not announced that they have a proposed budget (there was a board meeting this afternoon for that purpose, but when I looked a minute ago, no press release on transitchicago.com to that effect) one can't really know. My surmise was by saying that it was a 1-1 replacement, they were increasing capacity in that manner. However, my other posts also indicate that CTA has a habit of b.s.ing the feds to get these grants.

Even though BusHunter brought this up, this one is easy to answer. There still will be 1050 D40LFs even if the Novas were completely replaced, which they certainly won't be by this.

Which would point to this being supplemental to the existing 208. IIRC, CTA has stated after the 53 rebrand BRT's there intentions were to buy artics to continue on with the expansion then of BRT service. As far as Novas being replaced for artics most likely they might replace half of the Novas with artics, because that's all that might be left standing after next years cut. Novas currently comprise 31.5 percent of the 40 foot fleet. In my above statements I'm just stating that artics should be expanded to serve the top 10 ridership routes like a #3,#4,#77,#79,#87,#8 or #9. Whether 200 buses would replace that I don't know. A bit more controversial move would be to replace Novas like on the #49 with BRT artics and leave a local skeletal service sort of similar to the #X49 we used to have. Maybe that's there intentions, but that's long term. (a couple of years) The short term answer is to supplement.

[Busjack]

.... A bit more controversial move would be to replace Novas like on the #49 with BRT artics and leave a local skeletal service sort of similar to the #X49 we used to have. Maybe that's there intentions, but that's long term. (a couple of years) The short term answer is to supplement.

That would seem dependent on the west side corridor study coming up with anything, but I agree that it is possible.

[ChicagoNova]

Which would point to this being supplemental to the existing 208. IIRC, CTA has stated after the 53 rebrand BRT's there intentions were to buy artics to continue on with the expansion then of BRT service. As far as Novas being replaced for artics most likely they might replace half of the Novas with artics, because that's all that might be left standing after next years cut. Novas currently comprise 31.5 percent of the 40 foot fleet. In my above statements I'm just stating that artics should be expanded to serve the top 10 ridership routes like a #3,#4,#77,#79,#87,#8 or #9. Whether 200 buses would replace that I don't know. A bit more controversial move would be to replace Novas like on the #49 with BRT artics and leave a local skeletal service sort of similar to the #X49 we used to have. Maybe that's there intentions, but that's long term. (a couple of years) The short term answer is to supplement.

You wanna add #12, #20, #22, #26, #49, #55, #66, & #80 to the list?

[Busjack]

You wanna add #12, #20, #22, #26, #49, #55, #66, & #80 to the list?

The issues start coming up with where you are going to find space at K to store more hybrids for 12, for instance, and similar storage problems. It seems like only 77 currently has the space.