3200-series - Updates

[ThirdRailVision]

7 hours ago, garmon757 said:

Thank you Graham Garfield a.ka. The RailFather!

Quick side question-- what is the contraption at the top of the car used for?

[briman94]

4 minutes ago, ThirdRailVision said:

Quick side question-- what is the contraption at the top of the car used for?

Those are mounting boards for pantographs. Some of the 3200s were delivered with pantographs for use on the Yellow Line before it was converted to third rail. The pantographs have since been removed but the roof boards are part of the body structure so they have to stay.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

16 hours ago, ThirdRailVision said:

Quick side question-- what is the contraption at the top of the car used for?

 

16 hours ago, briman94 said:

Those are mounting boards for pantographs. Some of the 3200s were delivered with pantographs for use on the Yellow Line before it was converted to third rail. The pantographs have since been removed but the roof boards are part of the body structure so they have to stay.

 

The pantographs were removed in 2004, along with the wires they contacted. During the transition, some 4000s were seen running on the line using the overhead wire, but their third rail shoes were contacting the new third rail that had been installed. The roof boards remain to this day, as do the supporting structures that held the wires in place. The 3200s stayed for a few more years until they were replaced with the now-Yellow-Line-compatible 2600s. The 2600s were then replaced by the 5000s, since Howard Yard was becoming a 5000 yard.

 

[briman94]

3213-3214 fully rehabbed except LED run number boxes.

[garmon757]

Spotted #3313-14 fully rehabbed while en route to Kimball earlier this evening. Any reason why the detailed rehab list isn't merged to this topic?

[briman94]

18 hours ago, garmon757 said:

Spotted #3313-14 fully rehabbed while en route to Kimball earlier this evening. Any reason why the detailed rehab list isn't merged to this topic?

I have the other topic so the list is in the first post, but I think I'm behind a bit. If I miss any on the list, let me know on that thread and I'll update it. Gonna add 3213-14 and 3313-14 now

[garmon757]

I'm at the Kimball Yard and so far I got #3267-68, #3309-10, and #3345-46 all rehabbed without the LED run number boxes. 

[BusHunter]

2 hours ago, garmon757 said:

I'm at the Kimball Yard and so far I got #3267-68, #3309-10, and #3345-46 all rehabbed without the LED run number boxes. 

yeah i saw #3313-14 tonight. That came from the Orange line and now it's on the brown. So everytime the Orange sends a pair to Skokie they end up losing them. I haven't yet seen #3267-68 and #3309-10, but it sounds like another 8 cars have been moved from Skokie to Kimball yard.This makes 20 cars so far fully rehabbed.

[sw4400]

Looking at the rehab rosters, looks like I found a new pair with a full rehab(LED Displays and LED Interior Lighting).... #3285-3286. First one I recall being in.... it was bright!!!

[BusHunter]

One theory I might have on why the rehabbed #3200's are not going to the Orange line is maybe because with the new signs and all they will look so similar to the #5000 series, that they think someone will hook them up together. We'll have to see how it plays out. The only problem is the #3200's and #5000's will eventually be together in that yard. The only other option is to send the orange line #3200's to blue and take on the #2600's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7edeOEuXdMU

Then they wouldn't have that problem. (evil thoughts, but it does work!!)

[Busjack]

8 hours ago, BusHunter said:

One theory I might have on why the rehabbed #3200's are not going to the Orange line is maybe because with the new signs and all they will look so similar to the #5000 series, that they think someone will hook them up together.

They aren't going to have that problem because the 5000s aren't going there. Only explanation that makes sense is to put the rehabs where they will get the most use. But I guess you figure that Kimball Yard is going to need 257 cars, No.

[sw4400]

Considering the Orange Line lends out cars for Brownage trains, I would say they'll be keeping 3200-Series cars on the Orange Line. I highly doubt that 5000-Series cars will be used and everyone says that 2600-Series cars can't be used for the Brown Line(though they did have 2993-3002 assigned post-rehab in the early 2000's). As far as identification of cars.... if a Rail Operator or maintenance person who puts the cars together for runs can't tell the difference in railcars by series numbers(3201-3458, 5001-5714), there might be a more serious issue then...

Though, with electronics being able to be modified with adapters, I believe that even the 5000's could be paired with 3200's or 2600's. All CTA has to do is get a company that can manufacture a coupler that is also an AC to DC or DC to AC adapter. It should be possible if they build and test it with a pair of each car.

[Busjack]

1 minute ago, sw4400 said:

if a Rail Operator or maintenance person who puts the cars together for runs can't tell the difference in railcars by series numbers(3201-3458, 5001-5714), there might be a more serious issue then...

That's what I figured; there is a car number on the door. If they are that dumb, why did CTA say that 7000s don't have to be compatible, and that it had run mixed lines (but not trains) for about 4 years? However, we do have to consider the "brains" behind the Forest Park wreck.

[MTRSP1900-CTA3200]

6 hours ago, sw4400 said:

...Though, with electronics being able to be modified with adapters, I believe that even the 5000's could be paired with 3200's or 2600's. All CTA has to do is get a company that can manufacture a coupler that is also an AC to DC or DC to AC adapter. It should be possible if they build and test it with a pair of each car.

Unfortunately I still have the belief that that would also require modifications to the older fleets to make them less "dumb" than the 5000s. As far as I know, the 5000s made troubleshooting problems easier with the little screen in the operator's cab, but the 3200s still require an external laptop in the shop to adequately diagnose stuff. I'm not even sure what the 2600s have, but hopefully the mid life rehab added some stuff. We also have the problem of the way the motors work (smooth AC motors VS jerky DC motors).

But hey, WMATA did it.

[BusHunter]

Looks like we may have the next rehabbed pair sitting up by Kimball shops. It seems to have something wrong with it. It's been sitting there all weekend. (Maybe the guys who worked on #3289-90 worked on this one!!) I snapped a few shots, it's  #3375-76

(I left the res high maybe we can make out the numbers better)

[BusHunter]

13 hours ago, Busjack said:

They aren't going to have that problem because the 5000s aren't going there. Only explanation that makes sense is to put the rehabs where they will get the most use. But I guess you figure that Kimball Yard is going to need 257 cars, No.

Again, then houston they will have a problem. They can't retire 200 #2600's without sending the #5000's to the Orange. Unless you believe 62 #3200 cars are enough for the Orange line to make service. Yes, if your taking notes #3285-86, #3375-76 were Orange line cars. Now that they are rehabbed they are no longer Orange line cars. It should get interesting here in a bit because Orange can only send so many #3200's over and I supposed they could flip fleets between the Brown and Orange but once Brown gets it's 170 rehab cars, the gag is up. 

If you read my post, which it seems you didn't, my suggestion was to send the Orange line #3200 cars to the blue, but I think it's inevitable the #3200's and #5000's will be sharing Midway yard in the future. It's either that or they will tell the #2600 scrapper to go home, they changed their minds and are only scrapping 100 #2600 cars. Then that would work.

[Busjack]

27 minutes ago, BusHunter said:

Again, then houston they will have a problem

Somebody better tell the VP of Rail Operations that. However, since they still say that they need 400 7000s to replace 2600s, and after 5 or so months have not sent any 5000s to the Orange Line, I think not.

[briman94]

4 hours ago, MTRSP1900-CTA3200 said:

Unfortunately I still have the belief that that would also require modifications to the older fleets to make them less "dumb" than the 5000s. As far as I know, the 5000s made troubleshooting problems easier with the little screen in the operator's cab, but the 3200s still require an external laptop in the shop to adequately diagnose stuff. I'm not even sure what the 2600s have, but hopefully the mid life rehab added some stuff. We also have the problem of the way the motors work (smooth AC motors VS jerky DC motors).

But hey, WMATA did it.

WMATA had digital controls on their DC fleet, which meant they were able to have linear control over motor power and could make it work with AC. The CTA has mechanically controlled DC (with a physical cam linkage between cars, not electrical if I remember correctly) which has only 3-4 stages of power. It'd be essentially impossible to make them work with the 5000s without replacing 80% of the propulsion system, which we all know they're not doing.

[Busjack]

9 minutes ago, briman94 said:

The CTA has mechanically controlled DC (with a physical cam linkage between cars, not electrical if I remember correctly)

The books say that the cams are in the under car controllers. The train wires would connect the 8 controllers.

However, it gets back to Claypool's "secret" plan to give Bombardier a no bid contract to rebuild the 3200s as AC cars compatible with the 5000s, the Tribune exposing that plan, and CTA deciding on this rehab. From this Press Release, it looks like about $640K/car compared to the secret over $1 million.

[briman94]

6 minutes ago, Busjack said:

The books say that the cams are in the under car controllers. The train wires would connect the 8 controllers.

However, it gets back to Claypool's "secret" plan to give Bombardier a no bid contract to rebuild the 3200s as AC cars compatible with the 5000s, the Tribune exposing that plan, and CTA deciding on this rehab. From this Press Release, it looks like about $640K/car compared to the secret over $1 million.

They could greatly extend the life of the trains if they went with AC, but I guess that wasn't important to them (or at least not worth $360k/car)

[BusHunter]

2 minutes ago, briman94 said:

They could greatly extend the life of the trains if they went with AC, but I guess that wasn't important to them (or at least not worth $360k/car)

Don't forget they have electric buses to pay for.

[BusHunter]

36 minutes ago, Busjack said:

Somebody better tell the VP of Rail Operations that. However, since they still say that they need 400 7000s to replace 2600s, and after 5 or so months have not sent any 5000s to the Orange Line, I think not.

All this waiting for #5000's at Midway yard is indeed the big mystery at CTA rail, but it's not really foreign territory. Look what's happening at the glen. They stand to be all #6400's until the #8200's in May and even then they look to remain all Nova for the future. The moral of the story is CTA doesn't do things until they have to, at least in the outer parts of Chicago.

[Busjack]

2 minutes ago, briman94 said:

They could greatly extend the life of the trains if they went with AC, but I guess that wasn't important to them (or at least not worth $360k/car)

The 2 options for 256 7000s came out soon after that. I'm sure there would be an issue about the car interiors getting too grubby, if this became a 20 rather than 10 year rehab.

1 minute ago, BusHunter said:

Don't forget they have electric buses to pay for.

CMAQ was not going to pay $300 million for Rahm's secret job creation project. It was willing to transfer $8.1 million to pay for the electric buses. You have a source of the other $292 million (or even $166 million difference between the Bombardier and rehab costs)?

[sw4400]

I think the point I was trying to make was missed...

I know that replacing the DC trucks with AC trucks would be expensive for a 3200-Series rehab, and the 3200's won't have computer screens like the 5000-Series do. What I was saying if a special coupler could be made for the 3200's that converts AC power to DC power(like a transformer of sorts, only small enough for a coupler). That would allow the 5000's(AC) to be powered to the 3200's(DC) and maybe even the 2600's(DC) as this special coupler could simply that the electricity and convert it from one current to another so all cars operate in harmony together. Here's a crude example of what I mean.... yes, I know it's just for electronic devices to get power from a car cigarette lighter, but if you can build something small and simple to convert power from DC to AC in this example, why not on a grander scale like for two different types of powers on electric motors on railcars? It might be cheaper to buy one of these kind of units if they existed(probably in the ballpark of several thousand dollars per converter for 600v DC to 600v AC as opposed to one million dollars for a new AC powered truck for the 3200's). After coupling together, the Rail Operator simply plugs in a male part to a female part on the other coupler and power is supplied to the AC-powered 5000-Series cars just like plugging in a cell phone to a wall socket for charging. I'm sure a railcar company could make something like this with all sorts of converters out there. And a mixed train of 5000's and 3200's(maybe even 2600's) could work together because of one simple converter unit.

[briman94]

7 minutes ago, sw4400 said:

I think the point I was trying to make was missed...

I know that replacing the DC trucks with AC trucks would be expensive for a 3200-Series rehab, and the 3200's won't have computer screens like the 5000-Series do. What I was saying if a special coupler could be made for the 3200's that converts AC power to DC power(like a transformer of sorts, only small enough for a coupler). That would allow the 5000's(AC) to be powered to the 3200's(DC) and maybe even the 2600's(DC) as this special coupler could simply that the electricity and convert it from one current to another so all cars operate in harmony together. Here's a crude example of what I mean.... yes, I know it's just for electronic devices to get power from a car cigarette lighter, but if you can build something small and simple to convert power from DC to AC in this example, why not on a grander scale like for two different types of powers on electric motors on railcars? It might be cheaper to buy one of these kind of units if they existed(probably in the ballpark of several thousand dollars per converter for 600v DC to 600v AC as opposed to one million dollars for a new AC powered truck for the 3200's). After coupling together, the Rail Operator simply plugs in a male part to a female part on the other coupler and power is supplied to the AC-powered 5000-Series cars just like plugging in a cell phone to a wall socket for charging. I'm sure a railcar company could make something like this with all sorts of converters out there. And a mixed train of 5000's and 3200's(maybe even 2600's) could work together because of one simple converter unit.

 

The problem isn't transferring power. The cars don't transfer electricity between one another; that's why the A/C blowers and motor-inverter noise (on the 5000s) stop on a car if it goes over a gap in the third rail. The problem is that the 3200s and previous have mechanically controlled motors (meaning the throttle lever actually directly moves physical switches that adjust the amount of power going to the motors), and the 5000s have digitally controlled motors (the throttle lever tells the computer to slowly adjust the voltage of the electricity going to the inverters). It would require a complete redesign of the propulsion package on the older cars in order to get them to work with the 5000s, and it would be very expensive. A simple inverter/converter wouldn't be enough.