3200-series - Updates

[Busjack]

2 hours ago, Sam92 said:

Heres the thing though.... I think it was mentioned here that running mixed fleets of DC/AC equipment isn't good to do so

CTA did it for about  years on Red. Only constraint is that they can't be coupled together in an in-service train.

In fact, CTA is doing it on the Blue Line now.

Limiting series is only for the convenience of the terminal shop,

[Bus1883]

8 hours ago, Sam92 said:

 

I think they might focus on sending 3200s back to brown and orange since blue will be all 7000s. Only 50 3200s are needed to make brown all 3200s again and you can send the rest to orange which while knock out 2/3 of the 2600s there. Big question is what happens to the rest of the 2600s if only 190 cars are replaced? 

Maybe they can run them less to keep mileage down and used them for rush hour periods. After the 2600s are gone Id agree to someone mentioning this before converting Pink, Green, Orange, and Brown to 9000s while Blue line has all 7000s while they send their 5000s to Howard since they have 60% of the fleet with the red line extension taking place.

[Busjack]

On 12/10/2023 at 9:54 AM, Busjack said:

However, @garmon757's post is making me rethink this.

 

22 hours ago, Erin Mishkin Jr. said:

they have been there since the middle or end of September

Maybe I read too much into the former.?

[artthouwill]

On 12/9/2023 at 6:17 PM, garmon757 said:

Not sure anybody was aware but #3259-60 are currently assigned to Kimball. Expect more being assigned there as 2600s scrapping will begin its process in the spring coming up. 

 

22 hours ago, Erin Mishkin Jr. said:

they have been there since the middle or end of September

Since we're only talking about two cars right now, I guess it's much ado about nothing.

But if 3200s are going to be sent back to the Brown Line,  what was the purpose of sending them to the Blue Line to begin with?  If its Blue Line reliability or less wear and tear on the Brown Line,  then the 3200s really need to stay on the Blue Line.  There seems to be a randomness of which 2600s are actually being retired,  meaning some could be retired from each of the three lines that have them.  So unless the Orange Line ir Brown Line is designated as the Line that will be the retiring line for 2600s,  there's no need to move any 3200s from the Blue Line.   Even if more 7000s enter service,  CTA can either directly retire 2600s from the Blue Line or send 2600s to the Brown or Orange Line to retire something there.  The 3200s still have significantly less miles and are five years younger than the latest 2600 series cars .  I wouldn't even consider moving 3200s from the Blue Line until all of the 2600s on the Blue Line have been removed first.

[Busjack]

59 minutes ago, artthouwill said:

 

Since we're only talking about two cars right now, I guess it's much ado about nothing.

But if 3200s are going to be sent back to the Brown Line,  what was the purpose of sending them to the Blue Line to begin with?  If its Blue Line reliability....

As I noted in June, CTA had posted a Blue Line Strategies page, which suddenly disappeared a few days later. But it was essentially a question of reliability, as I then interpreted it, that 3200s will not break down as frequently as 2600s and will not cause as many disruptions. IIRC (and am not delusional) it also said that the 2600s were better suited to the Brown and Orange lines.

The assumption you have made, which I am now questioning in light of the announcements on 9000s is whether 3200s will go back to Orange and Brown, or the 2600s will stay on Orange and Brown until they are replaced by 9000s, which is what the announcements at least implied when they said "This next generation of railcars would replace CTA’s oldest railcars that were manufactured more than 40 years ago" and the budget said that the 9000s solicitation will include an option to replace the 3200s:

Quote

This future rail car procurement will fund base order, which is planned to replace the remaining ~300 of the 2600-Series cars and Option(s) to replace the 3200-Series cars.

 

[artthouwill]

50 minutes ago, Busjack said:

As I noted in June, CTA had posted a Blue Line Strategies page, which suddenly disappeared a few days later. But it was essentially a question of reliability, as I then interpreted it, that 3200s will not break down as frequently as 2600s and will not cause as many disruptions. IIRC (and am not delusional) it also said that the 2600s were better suited to the Brown and Orange lines.

The assumption you have made, which I am now questioning in light of the announcements on 9000s is whether 3200s will go back to Orange and Brown, or the 2600s will stay on Orange and Brown until they are replaced by 9000s, which is what the announcements at least implied when they said "This next generation of railcars would replace CTA’s oldest railcars that were manufactured more than 40 years ago" and the budget said that the 9000s solicitation will include an option to replace the 3200s:

 

Your Line of reasoning makes total sense.  However @,garmon757  suggests that 3200s could be moving back to the Brown Line as a result of some 2600s being scrapped this upcoming spring seems illogical to me.  It certainly doesn't align with its stated plans.  And I didn't even go down the rabbit hole of sending Green Line 5000s to Red Line for Red Line Extension expansion and Green line receiving 9000s as a result. 

And I thought their bus fleet management was questionable.  

 

[andrethebusman99]

Something I find odd  - in the railroad world locomotives with AC and DC traction motors can and are operated in the same power consist with no problems. Only restriction is the DC must be the leader as AC motors can take a lot more than DC motors can. DC motors can destroy themselves by stalling, while AC motors can still draw full current while standing still with no damage.

[Busjack]

1 hour ago, andrethebusman99 said:

Something I find odd  - in the railroad world locomotives with AC and DC traction motors can and are operated in the same power consist with no problems. Only restriction is the DC must be the leader as AC motors can take a lot more than DC motors can. DC motors can destroy themselves by stalling, while AC motors can still draw full current while standing still with no damage.

Are you talking about electromotive locomotives? In each case, each diesel engine is generating its own power. I suppose using the Sprague method, each rapid transit car could have its own controller, but if it depends on the type of master controller, DC (mechanical, relying on resisters) and AC (solid state inverters) are incompatible. Since the NTSC said the L cars are dependent on dynamic braking, resister and regenerative braking are different. AC cars need some sort of computer control to allow for smooth braking over third rail gaps,

[andrethebusman99]

A pair of diesel electric locomotives trainline about the same information as a pair of L cars. Engine speed control, dynamic braking, power to traction motors. Yes, there are some issues to consider. An AC leader with DC trailing could end up moving so slowly that the DC's motors could overheat. But since each L car is also electrically separate, with only control circuits trainlined, it should be workable, unless the AC cars have been deliberately designed to have incompatible control systems.

[Busjack]

14 hours ago, andrethebusman99 said:

unless the AC cars have been deliberately designed to have incompatible control systems.

It so appears, and also incompatible braking systems.* Also, there seem to be other incompatible systems, maybe trivially so, such as the digital sign systems. You said locos have "only control circuits trainlined" but previously asked why mainline trains have only 24 pins, while the number of pins on a CTA coupler vary, somewhere around 50. My understanding that a diesel train uses radio or wifi for stuff like gps, passenger announcements, etc., and air to brake unpowered cars; CTA doesn't.**

____________

*As I mentioned above, AC cars dump the regenerated electricity back to the third rail. A diesel loco can't.

**To get back to the 3200s, the spec for replacing roll signs said that the electronic sign controller had to work off the same train wires as the 15-position roll signs. There was no need for something similar for the 5000s.

[artthouwill]

1 hour ago, Javi75 said:

Are the 3200s the majority of the blue lines fleet at this point? The brown line still has 3200s without the special roof boards, is CTA still planning to move every 3200 under 3441 to the blue line? Also when the 7000s come in, would blue retire all of its 2600s first then send the 3200s to orange and brown when fully equipped with 7000s? 

This was discussed if you read up this thread.  

[Elkmn]

I think the brown line is getting some 3200s back from the blue. For the first time in a couple years, i saw a train where 6/8ths of the cars were 3200s. Either the new 7ks have displaced some of the 3200s from the blue, or Kimball yard has a bunch of 3200s they haven't been using as much. It could also be that I've started noticing the train consists more.

[artthouwill]

24 minutes ago, Elkmn said:

I think the brown line is getting some 3200s back from the blue. For the first time in a couple years, i saw a train where 6/8ths of the cars were 3200s. Either the new 7ks have displaced some of the 3200s from the blue, or Kimball yard has a bunch of 3200s they haven't been using as much. It could also be that I've started noticing the train consists more.

I think it's the latter.   Consists also can change when certain cars need to be decoupled for maintenance.   It's entirely possible that 6 of 8 cars are 3200s just like there are consists of all 2600s on the Brown Line.  I don't think 3200s will start returning to the Brown Line until the Blue Line is only made up of 7000s and 3200s.

In fact, based on my recent observations it's the BLUE LINE that has the majority of the 6/8 consists being 3200s.  There were a bunch of 2600s laid up in the Forest Park yard.  I don't know if they were just resting. Being prepped for the Brown or Irange Line, or preparing to be scrapped.  Based on a misplaced post by @Bus1883 some 2600s recently went to the scrapper. 

[Erin Mishkin Jr.]

6 hours ago, Elkmn said:

I think the brown line is getting some 3200s back from the blue. For the first time in a couple years, i saw a train where 6/8ths of the cars were 3200s. Either the new 7ks have displaced some of the 3200s from the blue, or Kimball yard has a bunch of 3200s they haven't been using as much. It could also be that I've started noticing the train consists more.

the only cars brown got from the blue recently were 3259-3260. maybe some more have appeared after some time

[Elkmn]

Haven't 3259-60 gone through a lot over the years? Weren't they on LTH for a while?

[Erin Mishkin Jr.]

On 3/28/2024 at 10:03 PM, Elkmn said:

Haven't 3259-60 gone through a lot over the years? Weren't they on LTH for a while?

Idek they were on blue in June now they on brown