Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[Busjack]

..As far as Cubic goes(if that's what Jewel and other major retailers have), I do regular Credit/Debit transactions at my store as well as places like Target, Sears, etc... and have no issues with my accounts. Cubic seems to be a good company if they do indeed handle most stores' electronic transactions.

I think both of you missed Cubic's role. Cubic provides defense and transportation systems. Maybe they will provide Ventra loading machines at Jewel.

Cubic is not in the transaction clearing business. Yahoo Small Business has a generic description of the process. Discover Card has a graphic of how its Credit Card Processing System works.

Note that the Yahoo one said that they contact First Data Merchant Services to get authorization. What else does First Data own? Money Network. Then, if approved, First Data sends a batch request to the issuing bank or credit card association. Then, your account is charged.

The only difference between this and the Money Network card is that First Data sends the batch request to its own captive bank.

But, sw, I don't see why you are freaking when the feature is optional. If you think you are being a consumer advocate for the downtrodden, rest assured that:

• If someone has to use a prepaid debit card, they are getting screwed by whomever issues it. Look up, for instance, the terms of a Walmart or Chase Liquid card.*
• You should know by now that CTA isn't going to change any contract just because you sent them an e-mail, as exemplified this week by the relatively slow but unanimous decision to charge $3 for the single ride rail ticket with mandatory transfer, which was preordained in Nov.2011. Haven't you received enough autotext responses already?

___________

*I don't see if Jewel sells debit cards, but Dominick's sure does.

[jajuan]

Oops I got money network and cubic crossed when I put in my response. My point is still the same though. Sw you're freaking out about a company that's a part of the very same company that enables your employer to accept credit and debit cards for which last I checked makes up a good chunk of Jewel's daily transactions. I know this because I also cashiered for them. What are you going to do, tell folks that a company that makes it possible to use their credit and debit cards is out to rip them off?

[jajuan]

I just read the latest RedEye story on this and before we have the latest freakout, the fees alluded to are if a customer opts into the again OPTIONAL debit card functions. They also are no different than fees included in other prepaid debit card accounts. In fact the article says they're middle ground compared to other prepaid cards. The moral again is just use the transit options if you don't want the extra fees and are concerned about paying out the nose.

[Busjack]

I just read the latest RedEye story on this and before we have the latest freakout, the fees alluded to are if a customer opts into the again OPTIONAL debit card functions. They also are no different than fees included in other prepaid debit card accounts. In fact the article says they're middle ground compared to other prepaid cards. The moral again is just use the transit options if you don't want the extra fees and are concerned about paying out the nose.

If you are referring to the Tribune article for which there is a link on the home page, besides the reference to "optional," the following seems the most important passage:

"But for prospective Ventra customers who are thinking about accepting the offer of a MasterCard prepaid debit account to make retail purchases on the same Ventra card they use for transit fares, it will be vital to closely read the legal jargon in registration documents to avoid costly surprises, consumer experts warn."

Then add:

"Financial experts said these types of fees, and the amounts charged, are fairly typical across the debit card industry. CTA officials said the Ventra prepaid debit account fees are in the middle of the pack and in some cases lower than other debit cards."

I noted above that people who have to resort to such cards are getting screwed, and the types of account agreements other large providers impose. I bet those people don't read them, either.

In one sense, this is similar to the story yesterday that the private manager of the Lottery wouldn't be docked for poor performance if it got "a broader audience to play the lottery. Historically, lottery sales are highest in low-income communities." What Governor Protoplasm doesn't realize is that the Lottery is a tax on the poor and the mathematically impaired. The high rollers go to the Hammond Casino, and at least get a meal while blowing their campaign funds, and cheap gas at 107th and Indianapolis before driving back.

[mkohut]

I think the way the CTA is going to make money off this is bringing in the machines for scrap metal.

[MetroShadow]

I think the way the CTA is going to make money off this is bringing in the machines for scrap metal.

As opposed to the outdated system being inefficient (sic).

[Busjack]

As opposed to the outdated system being inefficient (sic).

That's true. However, CTA apparently gets the dormancy fees, commissions for purchases using the debit card, etc. Still wonder how much of this compensates for the $450 million contract price.

[MetroShadow]

It's all about paying attention (and reading the fine print), which is suffice to say people have a hard time figuring that (and the word "optional") out. The outrage is overblown, as stated here (and explained in the RedEye article)--yes, it might be problematic for low-income families. However, with due diligence and keeping your card on you, you won't have to spill the $3 everytime (and even more so, if you don't use your card outside of transit, best to keep it that way).

I want to draw a diagram (on youtube) to prove my point. I'm too lazy to do it.

[sw4400]

-"But for prospective Ventra customers who are thinking about accepting the offer of a MasterCard prepaid debit account to make retail purchases on the same Ventra card they use for transit fares, it will be vital to closely read the legal jargon in registration documents to avoid costly surprises, consumer experts warn."

-"Financial experts said these types of fees, and the amounts charged, are fairly typical across the debit card industry. CTA officials said the Ventra prepaid debit account fees are in the middle of the pack and in some cases lower than other debit cards."

This is exactly my point, Busjack. Nobody takes the time to read legal jargon in most any contract, mainly because you would need to be a lawyer to understand it most of the time.

jajuan, I'm fine with customers getting the Ventra Card for bus/rail use only. But I want to be sure to warn them about the Debit Card option which I'm sure Money Network® will put some paper about in the package that reads something like this:

Now you can pay for transit and groceries/goods with one card!!!

A line like this is the fishing hook for the unsuspecting buyer to get baited without knowing about the extra fees listed below that are about this size way way on the bottom.

This is from Busjack's Trib article link:

"Ventra debit customers who fail to do their homework will likely be unaware that the charges can quickly pile up — until they see their account statement, which carries a $2 fee if a paper copy of transactions is requested, according to the Ventra contract.

Disputing the charges could get expensive, too. Card owners are subject to a $10-per-hour "Account Research Fee.'' That's on top of a $2 fee for making a phone call to Ventra's customer service center, which is classified as an "Operator Assisted Telephone Inquiry.''

"It's always the case that the big print giveth and the small print taketh away,'' said Steve Bernas, president and chief executive officer of the Chicago region's Better Business Bureau. "Consumers need to read it all ahead of time and determine whether the Ventra debit card is right for them."

Financial experts said these types of fees, and the amounts charged, are fairly typical across the debit card industry. CTA officials said the Ventra prepaid debit account fees are in the middle of the pack and in some cases lower than other debit cards.

To break a few of these down here:

Financial experts said these types of fees, and the amounts charged, are fairly typical across the debit card industry. CTA officials said the Ventra prepaid debit account fees are in the middle of the pack and in some cases lower than other debit cards.

I have had a Debit Card for years now... I pay no fees. I don't pay no fees for using it at Jewel, Target, Sears... wherever I go. The only fees I might get is if I use it at an ATM outside of my bank's ATM's. I can check my account with no fees and dispute charges with no fees on the phone. Oh, I also get paper statements for no charge.

"Consumers need to read it all ahead of time and determine whether the Ventra debit card is right for them." "It's always the case that the big print giveth and the small print taketh away,''

No average consumer takes the time to read any fine print.

until they see their account statement, which carries a $2 fee if a paper copy of transactions is requested, according to the Ventra contract.

Disputing the charges could get expensive, too. Card owners are subject to a $10-per-hour "Account Research Fee.'' That's on top of a $2 fee for making a phone call to Ventra's customer service center, which is classified as an "Operator Assisted Telephone Inquiry.''

I'll throw out a quick example here:

Let's say I had a Venta Debit Card(I get paper statements, so tack on $2) and there was a disputed charge of $40 on there. I call Ventra Customer Service Center($2) and explain to them about the dispute. They say they'll research the account($10/Hr.). I hear back from them the next day, about 9 business hours later and they say that it is something that they can't undo(common with Money Network's shady history). So now I have to pay $132($2 for Customer Service Call, $90 for 9 hours of "Account Research".

This is what I want to make sure my Ventra Card customers are aware of. Many people have multiple Credit/Debit cards and may want to condense them. They might think "I can ride the CTA/PACE with this and make purchases with the same card. I'm going to activate the optional Debit Card."

I would feel like I didn't do my job fully if I just said "Here's you Ventra Card. Have a great day!" and just let them leave without knowing.

[Busjack]

This is exactly my point, Busjack. Nobody takes the time to read legal jargon in most any contract, mainly because you would need to be a lawyer to understand it most of the time.....

Financial experts said these types of fees, and the amounts charged, are fairly typical across the debit card industry. CTA officials said the Ventra prepaid debit account fees are in the middle of the pack and in some cases lower than other debit cards.

I have had a Debit Card for years now... I pay no fees. I don't pay no fees for using it at Jewel, Target, Sears... wherever I go. The only fees I might get is if I use it at an ATM outside of my bank's ATM's. I can check my account with no fees and dispute charges with no fees on the phone. Oh, I also get paper statements for no charge.

"Consumers need to read it all ahead of time and determine whether the Ventra debit card is right for them." "It's always the case that the big print giveth and the small print taketh away,''

No average consumer takes the time to read any fine print.

until they see their account statement, which carries a $2 fee if a paper copy of transactions is requested, according to the Ventra contract.

...

Basically it gets down to the distinction jajuan and I tried to make before.

Is your debit card an ATM card, and thus associated with a checking account (as both of ours are)? Then, of course, you generally are not hit with an additional fee, although some banks do charge a fee if you use the "pin choice" rather than "credit choice" at the terminal at the cash register. I always wondered why some cashiers always ask "credit or debit" when I am clearly swiping a credit card, but that must be the reason.

But with regard to prepaid cards* people are getting screwed regardless of the issuer. Do you think anyone reads the account agreements to which I posted links, such as at Walmart?

Heck, if people really cared about fees, currency exchanges would have gone out of business when branch banking was legalized in Illinois.

__________

*I got a solicitation saying that since I was a preferred bank customer, they would waive the fees on the prepaid card. But since I am a preferred customer---why would I need one?

Update: I forgot the bank scam of instead of rejecting a debit card transaction, they would accept it and then change an overdraft fee.

[sw4400]

My Debit Card is linked to my Checking Account. I have an ATM Card is linked to my Savings Account. Jewel doesn't allow ATM Card usage; Debit/Credit only. I can use my Debit Card as that or as a Credit Card and not be charged any fee.

Let me tell you about a bank that is supposed to be "Totally Free" that does, however... TCF.

I hear from my customers all the time. If you use their "Debit" card as a Credit, you are charged no fee, but if you use it as a Debit, you are charged a $3.xx fee/use. Does that make sense?

[Busjack]

My Debit Card is linked to my Checking Account. I have an ATM Card is linked to my Savings Account. Jewel doesn't allow ATM Card usage; Debit/Credit only. I can use my Debit Card as that or as a Credit Card and not be charged any fee.

Let me tell you about a bank that is supposed to be "Totally Free" that does, however... TCF.

I hear from my customers all the time. If you use their "Debit" card as a Credit, you are charged no fee, but if you use it as a Debit, you are charged a $3.xx fee/use. Does that make sense?

When I first got here, the bank gave me an ATM card, but said I didn't want it, since I would be getting a Visa one in the mail. I asked "what's the difference," and they said that it would be accepted wherever Visa is, so I said "fine."

You confirmed what I said about the "pin option," which doesn't make sense to me either, but that was my understanding.

I've been told that Costco only accepts debit cards, so maybe their customers who are with the wrong bank are getting stuck with the $3.00 charge.

[Busjack]

Hilkevitch has another twist on this, in that he says seniors cards issued by the RTA won't have the debit card feature, but will have the dormancy fee.

However, it doesn't say if the seniors cards could just be used as identification, followed up by a bank card (which would be of interest to me in a few years down the road).

[sw4400]

"The RTA said Wednesday that it intervened to protect senior citizens and disabled individuals by removing them from the CTA's offer of a MasterCard debit account on their reduced-fare Ventra cards."

RTA is showing some intellegence... but why not remove the option from all Ventra Cards? Some poor souls will activate that Debit option and really find themselves screwed.

Another issue with this new Ventra system, at least for the Reduced Card holders:

There is some bad news for senior and disabled program participants, however.

If riders with the Ventra reduced-fare cards do not use the cards for 18 months, a $5-per-month "dormancy fee" will be deducted from the account balance until the cards are used, said Mark Minor, RTA principal analyst.

I doubt the cards will remain unused for 18 months, but who knows? Money Network® is finding ways to nickel and dime people out of money. CTA should've done their homework on this company before agreeing to them handling the Ventra system.

[Busjack]

"The RTA said Wednesday that it intervened to protect senior citizens and disabled individuals by removing them from the CTA's offer of a MasterCard debit account on their reduced-fare Ventra cards."

RTA is showing some intellegence... but why not remove the option from all Ventra Cards? Some poor souls will activate that Debit option and really find themselves screwed.

Because then CTA would not get a commission on the sales made with the debit card.

I doubt the cards will remain unused for 18 months, but who knows? Money Network® is finding ways to nickel and dime people out of money. CTA should've done their homework on this company before agreeing to them handling the Ventra system.

That's why I brought up whether they could be used only for identification. Someone might want to have the card in case they use transit occasionally or board Pace first, but not enough to want to load a lot of value on it, especially if they are retired and not a daily commuter. EDIT: The Sun Times indicates that the fare has to be loaded on the RTA card.

And this dormancy fee HAS NOTHING to do with Money Network. It all goes to CTA and Pace. The Tribune states that there is a separate dormancy fee if you load but don't use the debit side of the card.

[sw4400]

Because then CTA would not get a commission on the sales made with the debit card.

Well TS for the CTA then. They should've done their homework before giving the Ventra contract to Money Network. They get the commission, the customer gets nickeled and dimed for ridiculous fees.

My mistake then on the dormancy fee, but that Debit Card option needs to be cut from ALL Ventra Cards, not just the Reduced Fare ones.

[Busjack]

Well TS for the CTA then. They should've done their homework before giving the Ventra contract to Money Network. They get the commission, the customer gets nickeled and dimed for ridiculous fees.

My mistake then on the dormancy fee, but that Debit Card option needs to be cut from ALL Ventra Cards, not just the Reduced Fare ones.

Well, are you going to make up the lost revenue?

[jajuan]

This is exactly my point, Busjack. Nobody takes the time to read legal jargon in most any contract, mainly because you would need to be a lawyer to understand it most of the time.

jajuan, I'm fine with customers getting the Ventra Card for bus/rail use only. But I want to be sure to warn them about the Debit Card option which I'm sure Money Network® will put some paper about in the package that reads something like this:

Now you can pay for transit and groceries/goods with one card!!!

A line like this is the fishing hook for the unsuspecting buyer to get baited without knowing about the extra fees listed below that are about this size way way on the bottom.

This is from Busjack's Trib article link:

"Ventra debit customers who fail to do their homework will likely be unaware that the charges can quickly pile up — until they see their account statement, which carries a $2 fee if a paper copy of transactions is requested, according to the Ventra contract.

Disputing the charges could get expensive, too. Card owners are subject to a $10-per-hour "Account Research Fee.'' That's on top of a $2 fee for making a phone call to Ventra's customer service center, which is classified as an "Operator Assisted Telephone Inquiry.''

"It's always the case that the big print giveth and the small print taketh away,'' said Steve Bernas, president and chief executive officer of the Chicago region's Better Business Bureau. "Consumers need to read it all ahead of time and determine whether the Ventra debit card is right for them."

Financial experts said these types of fees, and the amounts charged, are fairly typical across the debit card industry. CTA officials said the Ventra prepaid debit account fees are in the middle of the pack and in some cases lower than other debit cards.

To break a few of these down here:

Financial experts said these types of fees, and the amounts charged, are fairly typical across the debit card industry. CTA officials said the Ventra prepaid debit account fees are in the middle of the pack and in some cases lower than other debit cards.

I have had a Debit Card for years now... I pay no fees. I don't pay no fees for using it at Jewel, Target, Sears... wherever I go. The only fees I might get is if I use it at an ATM outside of my bank's ATM's. I can check my account with no fees and dispute charges with no fees on the phone. Oh, I also get paper statements for no charge.

"Consumers need to read it all ahead of time and determine whether the Ventra debit card is right for them." "It's always the case that the big print giveth and the small print taketh away,''

No average consumer takes the time to read any fine print.

until they see their account statement, which carries a $2 fee if a paper copy of transactions is requested, according to the Ventra contract.

Disputing the charges could get expensive, too. Card owners are subject to a $10-per-hour "Account Research Fee.'' That's on top of a $2 fee for making a phone call to Ventra's customer service center, which is classified as an "Operator Assisted Telephone Inquiry.''

I'll throw out a quick example here:

Let's say I had a Venta Debit Card(I get paper statements, so tack on $2) and there was a disputed charge of $40 on there. I call Ventra Customer Service Center($2) and explain to them about the dispute. They say they'll research the account($10/Hr.). I hear back from them the next day, about 9 business hours later and they say that it is something that they can't undo(common with Money Network's shady history). So now I have to pay $132($2 for Customer Service Call, $90 for 9 hours of "Account Research".

This is what I want to make sure my Ventra Card customers are aware of. Many people have multiple Credit/Debit cards and may want to condense them. They might think "I can ride the CTA/PACE with this and make purchases with the same card. I'm going to activate the optional Debit Card."

I would feel like I didn't do my job fully if I just said "Here's you Ventra Card. Have a great day!" and just let them leave without knowing.

And again what part of OPTIONAL do you not comprehend? You don't want to pay for those extra fees, use the freaking card for more than one ride, don't be naive enough to opt in on the debit card functions or so bad with keeping track of your own finances that you can't get a regular bank account and have prepaid debit cards as your only option for handling your money if you don't want to carry a lot of cash. That's all I need broken down so I again would appreciate you stop with the acting as if you're speaking to someone who's two years old.

[Busjack]

And again what part of OPTIONAL do you not comprehend? You don't want to pay for those extra fees, use the freaking card for more than one ride, don't be naive enough to opt in on the debit card functions or so bad with keeping track of your own finances that you can't get a regular bank account and have prepaid debit cards as your only option for handling your money if you don't want to carry a lot of cash. That's all I need broken down so I again would appreciate you stop with the acting as if you're speaking to someone who's two years old.

I think he was more acting like a consumer advocate, but CTA is certainly not listening,* and I'm sure the ones he wants to protect don't care.

I suppose that one could complain to the Comptroller of the Currency** about the whole prepaid debit card racket, but that isn't going to do any good either.

__________

*And, of course, I hit stop when Claypool comes on one of the embedded Tribune videos apparently set on autoplay.

**I assume that the issuers are all national banks.

[sw4400]

Well, I am concerned about my fellow customers getting baited by the prospect of a pay for transit plus goods Debit Card without reading that all important fine print. Maybe that makes me a consumer advocate, I guess. I am not meaning to bother you with my banter, jajuan. Nothing was meant to you, Busjack, or anyone on this forum. I am just appaled that the CTA would allow a company to put an option for a Debit Card on their new Transit Card system knowing what kind of hidden costs there are with it. That's bad business, IMO...

[Busjack]

... That's bad business, IMO...

That doesn't seem any different than people noting on the CTA Tattler why CTA is leasing stations to doughnut and bagel shops when you are not supposed to eat on the train, and there should be transit cops to enforce that rule. When a business is in such a money hole that the CTA is, it prostitutes itself, here, though, in a legal manner.

[BusHunter]

Wow, the Ventra card sounds as bad as the parking meters. This is what happens when you give private companies the ability to run in the public sector, you give them liberties to charge what they please. So far the Ventra card doesn't sound like it's worth buying. (You may be right, these machines will be in a scrap heap sooner than we think) I got a peek at the Ventra machines the other day, they have a monitor on each machine with most likely a touch screen display. Most likely customers will be paying for the maintenance of this fancy equipment. The thing that may turn out to be a mistake is the $3 charge CTA wants to charge for all non - Ventra users. After hearing about this, sounds like the best way to use Ventra is anonymous, but I doubt that's possible, but it might be if you can still buy temporary passes at Jewel, Dominick's etc. Regardless it already sounds like a mess, and it has yet to start. This summer should be interesting.

[Busjack]

Wow, the Ventra card sounds as bad as the parking meters. This is what happens when you give private companies the ability to run in the public sector, you give them liberties to charge what they please. So far the Ventra card doesn't sound like it's worth buying. (You may be right, these machines will be in a scrap heap sooner than we think) I got a peek at the Ventra machines the other day, they have a monitor on each machine with most likely a touch screen display. Most likely customers will be paying for the maintenance of this fancy equipment. The thing that may turn out to be a mistake is the $3 charge CTA wants to charge for all non - Ventra users. After hearing about this, sounds like the best way to use Ventra is anonymous, but I doubt that's possible, but it might be if you can still buy temporary passes at Jewel, Dominick's etc. Regardless it already sounds like a mess, and it has yet to start. This summer should be interesting.

Despite some of the hysteria, the way to avoid all of this is to use it as an open fare system, without Ventra cards, as Kevin suggested above (unless you are now a Chicago Card Plus user or the like). That was what the objective originally was.

And, as for what the customers will be paying, fare collection was never free, and the only additional thing for which customers (and I contend uninformed ones) will be paying in that regard is to manufacture the disposable $3 tickets. But someone had to pay for all the obsolete fare equipment that CTA now owns.

And, as far as buying cards at Jewel, etc. you'll be able to, but those will be Ventra cards. Another anology: you can buy an Arch Card for McDonald's or use any RFID card.

[jajuan]

Well, I am concerned about my fellow customers getting baited by the prospect of a pay for transit plus goods Debit Card without reading that all important fine print. Maybe that makes me a consumer advocate, I guess. I am not meaning to bother you with my banter, jajuan. Nothing was meant to you, Busjack, or anyone on this forum. I am just appaled that the CTA would allow a company to put an option for a Debit Card on their new Transit Card system knowing what kind of hidden costs there are with it. That's bad business, IMO...

Keyword being OPTION meaning no one is holding a gun to anyone's head saying they have to use the card as anything more than transit purposes.

[mkohut]

Groupon still has some 3 day passes for 9 dollars