Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[BusHunter]

Despite some of the hysteria, the way to avoid all of this is to use it as an open fare system, without Ventra cards, as Kevin suggested above (unless you are now a Chicago Card Plus user or the like). That was what the objective originally was.

And, as for what the customers will be paying, fare collection was never free, and the only additional thing for which customers (and I contend uninformed ones) will be paying in that regard is to manufacture the disposable $3 tickets. But someone had to pay for all the obsolete fare equipment that CTA now owns.

And, as far as buying cards at Jewel, etc. you'll be able to, but those will be Ventra cards. Another anology: you can buy an Arch Card for McDonald's or use any RFID card.

Yeah, but then you have to wonder if using your credit card will be frowned upon with yet another charge. And whose to say that they won't charge extra for the Jewel passes. (your telling me their going to manufacturer passes for free) They probably want everyone on a preloaded system, this way they don't have to make that many passes. These guys remind me of Bank Of America. Their going to run a real lean/cheap operation, with lots of fees and penalties, and nag you to join their system, This way they can make the most money with the least resources using as little physical media as possible. There's a reason why these companies get big and profitable and this is it.

[Busjack]

Yeah, but then you have to wonder if using your credit card will be frowned upon with yet another charge.

There was the discussion with sw whether the debit card issuer will impose a purchase fee. Obviously, if you are paying a $2.00 fare and there is a $3.00 purchase fee, that doesn't pay, so one would have to check first with their bank.

But if it is supposedly to be a truly open system, CTA shouldn't discriminate against users of bank cards.

... And whose to say that they won't charge extra for the Jewel passes. (your telling me their going to manufacturer passes for free) They probably want everyone on a preloaded system, this way they don't have to make that many passes....

As I indicated earlier, it does not look like there will be the "10 packs of single ride transit cards" or the like at Jewel or Dominick's. They will only be selling Ventra cards. At least that's what I get from Pace saying that the cards will be available in more locations in Pace territory.

[BusHunter]

As I indicated earlier, it does not look like there will be the "10 packs of single ride transit cards" or the like at Jewel or Dominick's. They will only be selling Ventra cards. At least that's what I get from Pace saying that the cards will be available in more locations in Pace territory.

That's one thing I don't get. If they are Ventra cards, wouldn't you have to sign up to use them/or pay $5 extra which makes them no different than a standard Ventra user. (like filling out for a preferred card and then your future pass purchases are preloaded?) I'm wondering if maybe Ventra machines will be in the supermarkets also.

[Busjack]

That's one thing I don't get. If they are Ventra cards, wouldn't you have to sign up to use them/or pay $5 extra which makes them no different than a standard Ventra user. (like filling out for a preferred card and then your future pass purchases are preloaded?) I'm wondering if maybe Ventra machines will be in the supermarkets also.

Sure you would have to cough up the extra $5.00.

Probably not the full blown Ventra machine, but either they are preloaded with $20.00 for $25.00, or there is a small loading machine, similar to you have to get a phone card activated at the cash register before it becomes valid. Thus, I figure it would work like those cards or the Apple Store cards hanging by nearly any checkout.

[Kevin]

That's one thing I don't get. If they are Ventra cards, wouldn't you have to sign up to use them/or pay $5 extra which makes them no different than a standard Ventra user. (like filling out for a preferred card and then your future pass purchases are preloaded?) I'm wondering if maybe Ventra machines will be in the supermarkets also.

When purchasing a multi-day pass, or adding transit value, at a retail location you'll either:

• Purchase a new Ventra card for $5, plus the cost of whatever value or pass you wish to add.
• Use your existing Ventra card to add value or a pass.
• Use any contactless credit or debit card to add value or a pass.

Retail location will not have Ventra vending machines. Instead, retailers will have a special Ventra terminal that will allow them to load or reload Ventra cards or any contactless credit or debit card.

[Busjack]

When purchasing a multi-day pass, or adding transit value, at a retail location you'll either:

• Purchase a new Ventra card for $5, plus the cost of whatever value or pass you wish to add.
• Use your existing Ventra card to add value or a pass.
• Use any contactless credit or debit card to add value or a pass.

Retail location will not have Ventra vending machines. Instead, retailers will have a special Ventra terminal that will allow them to load or reload Ventra cards or any contactless credit or debit card.

"Terminal." That's the word I was looking for.

Also, I bet it isn't much different than reloading a Chicago Card at a currency exchange (touch and go location list).

According to that list, one can now buy a preloaded $20 Chicago Card even at the Walgreens at Sibley and State Line in Hammond. So, I don't expect anything different with the Ventra Card.

[Busjack]

Today's Tribune editorial seems to sum it up fairly, except maybe for the assumption that CTA "Customer Service" would provide any service (or outlet to vent) about the debit card account.

Where CTA gets money out of this is also explained.

It also says the following with regard to the "consumer protection" point:

"If your financial state is such that a prepaid card is among your few options — if you don't have a credit card or checking account, for example — then you've likely come to expect the sort of fees outlined above."

"A federal law passed in 2009 restricted how credit card companies can operate, but the prepaid cards fall largely outside those rules. They're "part of a shadowy alternative banking system that lacks full consumer protections," according to Americans for Financial Reform, a coalition of advocacy groups lobbying for regulating the cards."

As I indicated yesterday, it would be up to Congress and the Comptroller of the Currency to regulate them. I guess they escaped Dodd-Frank.

[Busjack]

Doing a bit of Googling, I came up with this Money Network card agreement, From the Google Search, apparently a lot of these are peddled on college campuses.

Apparently MetaBank is a real bank, but from its site it seems like most of its business is this kind of financial clearing. But, then again, Discover Bank and Ally Bank also supposedly are real banks.

[sw4400]

When purchasing a multi-day pass, or adding transit value, at a retail location you'll either:

• Purchase a new Ventra card for $5, plus the cost of whatever value or pass you wish to add.
• Use your existing Ventra card to add value or a pass.
• Use any contactless credit or debit card to add value or a pass.

Retail location will not have Ventra vending machines. Instead, retailers will have a special Ventra terminal that will allow them to load or reload Ventra cards or any contactless credit or debit card.

I'm a 7-Day Pass purchaser, Kevin. What would I be paying by getting a Ventra Card(whatever the regular card is, not the Debit Card nightmare). Would I be paying $28 or $33? I imagine since it is my first card, I have to pay additionally $5, so I'm guessing first time $33 or $38?

[Kevin]

I'm a 7-Day Pass purchaser, Kevin. What would I be paying by getting a Ventra Card(whatever the regular card is, not the Debit Card nightmare). Would I be paying $28 or $33? I imagine since it is my first card, I have to pay additionally $5, so I'm guessing first time $33 or $38?

There's only one Ventra card. All will have the MasterCard logo and the optional capability of doubling as a pre-paid debit card. Just don't activate that feature.

The first time you purchase a Ventra card, you'll pay $5 plus $28 for your 7-day pass. Provided you later register the card, the $5 purchase fee will be instantly refunded as a transit credit. Therefore, the next time you load a 7-day pass the cost will be only $23. All future passes will be the standard $28 provided you continue reloading the same Ventra card.

You'll be able to purchase and reload a Ventra card at Ventra machines at rail stations or at participating retailers. You can add value to your Ventra card using cash or credit card.

[artthouwill]

Think of the Ventra card as a ChicagoCard Plus. It really is the same thing. That way you don't get caught up in Prepaid this that or the other and you don't stress out over nothing. Anything 'Prepaid" (cell phones, debit cards) come with disadvantages or fees because they are aimed at a market which has bad credit or money mismanagement options. That is the price they have to pay to play. People with excellent credit can walk out of a dealership with a car without having to put a down a downpayment, usually get the lowest interest rates, etc. High risk credit people (mostly poor, but otherwise just bad managers of money) get charged the high rates and extras because that is the price paid for someone taking a risk on them. For those people, a Ventra card is one card that can be used for transit AND shopping, etc because a lot of these people do not have checking accounts. Currency Exchanges and PLS Check Cashers are still popular. Those places charge fees for check cashing, loading prepaid cards, etc. Basically, unless someone is willing to give poor folks a financial education, and those folks are willing to make some serious changes in their spending habits, etc, there will always be a "black" market for these services. Based on the economy, there are plenty of consumers to be had.

For myself, only the Ventra transit portion will work for me. I have no need for the "debit/credit" option, but unless someone asks me, I cannot nor will not tell them what is best for them. They will have to figure that out for themselves. The information is out there, it just takes some reading and research.

[jajuan]

Think of the Ventra card as a ChicagoCard Plus. It really is the same thing. That way you don't get caught up in Prepaid this that or the other and you don't stress out over nothing. Anything 'Prepaid" (cell phones, debit cards) come with disadvantages or fees because they are aimed at a market which has bad credit or money mismanagement options. That is the price they have to pay to play. People with excellent credit can walk out of a dealership with a car without having to put a down a downpayment, usually get the lowest interest rates, etc. High risk credit people (mostly poor, but otherwise just bad managers of money) get charged the high rates and extras because that is the price paid for someone taking a risk on them. For those people, a Ventra card is one card that can be used for transit AND shopping, etc because a lot of these people do not have checking accounts. Currency Exchanges and PLS Check Cashers are still popular. Those places charge fees for check cashing, loading prepaid cards, etc. Basically, unless someone is willing to give poor folks a financial education, and those folks are willing to make some serious changes in their spending habits, etc, there will always be a "black" market for these services. Based on the economy, there are plenty of consumers to be had.

For myself, only the Ventra transit portion will work for me. I have no need for the "debit/credit" option, but unless someone asks me, I cannot nor will not tell them what is best for them. They will have to figure that out for themselves. The information is out there, it just takes some reading and research.

Art, you pretty made the point busjsck and I have been trying to make for some weeks now.

[Busjack]

The first time you purchase a Ventra card, you'll pay $5 plus $28 for your 7-day pass. Provided you later register the card, the $5 purchase fee will be instantly refunded as a transit credit. Therefore, the next time you load a 7-day pass the cost will be only $23. All future passes will be the standard $28 provided you continue reloading the same Ventra card.

....

That what I was ruminating in my head over dinner.

If one were using the card as a stored value card, one could pay $25, immediately use $20 and upon registering (which I assume could be right away) still have $5 in fares.

However, it wasn't so clear in the pass situation, in that $5 cash value wouldn't be of much use unless you got $5 off your next pass. Again, I sort of wonder about the employer paid Transit Benefits pass--maybe the employer only pays $95 the second month (assuming that 30 day passes get the tax benefit).

[Kevin]

However, it wasn't so clear in the pass situation, in that $5 cash value wouldn't be of much use unless you got $5 off your next pass. Again, I sort of wonder about the employer paid Transit Benefits pass--maybe the employer only pays $95 the second month (assuming that 30 day passes get the tax benefit).

It will likely work just like Chicago Card Plus does now.

For Transit Benefits, the employer adds a set amount of value to the card each month. For Chicago Card Plus, that value gets added to the card's balance and that balance is then used to purchase a pass or for pay-per-use.

With Ventra, the $5 credit will get added to the card balance. The employer will still add the usual monthly amount. So, if you purchase a pass, you may always end up with an extra $5 balance on the card after the pass purchase. You could conceivable tell your employer to reduce the benefit amount by $5 for one month, but with most HR software that's typically easier said than done.

[Busjack]

It will likely work just like Chicago Card Plus does now.

For Transit Benefits, the employer adds a set amount of value to the card each month. For Chicago Card Plus, that value gets added to the card's balance and that balance is then used to purchase a pass or for pay-per-use....

I guess I assumed that the employer buys the whole pass. If not, it would be $5 less for the employee to add, one month.

However, given that The Washington Post says that the limit was raised to $245/month, an employer could pay for an entire 30 day pass (could even buy a Zone K Metra ticket).

[BusHunter]

There's only one Ventra card. All will have the MasterCard logo and the optional capability of doubling as a pre-paid debit card. Just don't activate that feature.

The first time you purchase a Ventra card, you'll pay $5 plus $28 for your 7-day pass. Provided you later register the card, the $5 purchase fee will be instantly refunded as a transit credit. Therefore, the next time you load a 7-day pass the cost will be only $23. All future passes will be the standard $28 provided you continue reloading the same Ventra card.

You'll be able to purchase and reload a Ventra card at Ventra machines at rail stations or at participating retailers. You can add value to your Ventra card using cash or credit card.

So in stating that, then there is no such thing as an anonymous Ventra card, unless you choose to not get your $5 back. (now I wonder is there an anonymous Chicago card, if you can buy one at Walgreens, not that it will matter when Ventra comes out and it is phased out.) So everyone who uses it will be labeled. Just think if a crime is committed than all one has to do is look at the cameras and they have your name to question you in the case of a crime as a witness or assailant. This might actually help with crime but it can be argued that it's big brother and an invasion of privacy. (pardon my paranoia but this sounds like 1984, the movie) Of course, we still have the right to use it or not.

[trigger]

So in stating that, then there is no such thing as an anonymous Ventra card, unless you choose to not get your $5 back. (now I wonder is there an anonymous Chicago card, if you can buy one at Walgreens, not that it will matter when Ventra comes out and it is phased out.) So everyone who uses it will be labeled. Just think if a crime is committed than all one has to do is look at the cameras and they have your name to question you in the case of a crime as a witness or assailant. This might actually help with crime but it can be argued that it's big brother and an invasion of privacy. (pardon my paranoia but this sounds like 1984, the movie) Of course, we still have the right to use it or not.

You will be able to register online or by calling a toll-free number.

Call the toll-free number from a payphone and give your name and address as

Rahm Emanuel

121 N. LaSalle Street

Chicago, Illinois 60602

They say they will immediately activate your card. Obviously, they are not

going to check your ID over the phone or send investigators to the

address to see if you really live there. Use an address in another

city if you really want to throw them off the track!

Please take a moment to read Common Misconceptions about Ventra from the CTA web site which includes the following quote: "If a person walks into a retail location to get a Ventra Card,

they can call the 800 number or use their smartphone to quickly register the

card, then walk outside and board a bus/train—the value is immediately added."

[Busjack]

So in stating that, then there is no such thing as an anonymous Ventra card, unless you choose to not get your $5 back. (now I wonder is there an anonymous Chicago card, if you can buy one at Walgreens, not that it will matter when Ventra comes out and it is phased out.)

That's true, but Kevin indicated that the range of radio identification is very low.

Now, if you use a bank card for illegitimate purposes, such as by stealing the card, how do you think the banks find you? Be a crook and stick one in an ATM and the bank has your picture.

On the other hand, if you don't register the card, you can't report it stolen and have it deactivated.

In the meantime, there are idiots committing crimes on L platforms even though the stations have cameras, and stealing smart phones and school buses with gps.

There is talk that gps can be used to trace how you use your car, being an invasion of privacy, but if you have OnStar you can call Bolivar to disable the car and call the police.

[sw4400]

Ok, I just happened to see this on the "CTA in the News" feed on chicagobus.org's main page. While I am impressed and all for the idea of schooling Rahm Emanuel, Forrest Claypool and those in the CTA about Ventra, the optional Debit Card and the outrageous fees it curtails, this is not me starting this petition.

Story

Petition

[Busjack]

Ok, I just happened to see this on the "CTA in the News" feed on chicagobus.org's main page. While I am impressed and all for the idea of schooling Rahm Emanuel, Forrest Claypool and those in the CTA about Ventra, the optional Debit Card and the outrageous fees it curtails, this is not me starting this petition.

Story

Petition

I had noted that the proponent of the petition had said, "At the end of the day, this deal, like every other Chicago deal, will go through. But the least we can do is express our disappointment."

And, a senior rider said of the RTA card, "On the face of it, not offering the prepaid debit card sounds discriminatory, even punitive."

Rahm and Forrest are not interested in disappointment, especially when Rahm has the school problems.

[BusHunter]

Ok, I just happened to see this on the "CTA in the News" feed on chicagobus.org's main page. While I am impressed and all for the idea of schooling Rahm Emanuel, Forrest Claypool and those in the CTA about Ventra, the optional Debit Card and the outrageous fees it curtails, this is not me starting this petition.

Story

Petition

Yeah, they outline fees I didn't even know existed, like the internet fee. Ventra is clearly making a joke out of the fee system. Alot of people are going to load cards and come back later in the month and say where's my money? Their going to probably think CTA took it. There's going to be lots of calls to CTA customer service about this. Instead of calling it the Ventra card they need to call it the cha-ching card.

[BusHunter]

Also, you know how the passes sometimes fail and the operator checks to see if it's still valid. Well when these cards fail (which probably won't be too long) because the operator can't see the expiration date, either the operator is going to pass you through or totally deny you service. There's going to be lost revenue on cards that don't have pass money on them, and angry people who can't ride the service because there denied service. If Ventra was smart they would issue riders 2 cards and when one fails you have the other while the first one gets fixed, or they could give you the ability to transfer info from one card to another, this way you wouldn't be out in the cold while you wait for your card to be fixed.

[trigger]

That's no different than the Chicago Card.

When a Chicago Card fails, there's nothing printed on the card to tell you when it was last used or when it expires. And when a Transit Card fails, all that is stamped on it is the expiration date, not how much money was left on the card.

I'll grant you that if a Pass fails (other than the 30-day pass option of the Chicago Card Plus), there is a date the operator can examine.

[jajuan]

For the introduction of these cards and the system as a whole to still be a few months off, folks sure seem to be bent on assuming there's going to be a fast failure of the cards working properly on the transit side. The cards are not going to be tapped on the current outdated equipment. As long as the chip in the card or that in your own credit or debit card isn't damaged and those new machines being installed in buses and the turnstiles work properly you shouldn't have too many problems.

[BusHunter]

For the introduction of these cards and the system as a whole to still be a few months off, folks sure seem to be bent on assuming there's going to be a fast failure of the cards working properly on the transit side. The cards are not going to be tapped on the current outdated equipment. As long as the chip in the card or that in your own credit or debit card isn't damaged and those new machines being installed in buses and the turnstiles work properly you shouldn't have too many problems.

Tell that to the people who own a Chicago Card. The equipment was not so outdated (it was installed specially for the Chicago Card) when the failures started to occur. The problem is not the reader it is the cards. Tell me this if a 30 day pass can barely function throughout the month 50 percent of the time, how do they expect these cards to work for months or years. I've known people who have been through 3 or 4 Chicago cards in a five year period. Of course as you state this is not the Chicago Card, and will ultimately be Ventra's headache. Let's just hope they don't start charging for additional cards.