Ventra - Bugs, Feedback, and Questions

[Busjack]

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This is from the document about Ventra, article 12: Other Terms. Now if I shrink this down...

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This is the size roughly this section will appear on that document with all the little fee notices and other miscellaneous stuff they have to print according to the law, but don't want you to read, or have to strain to read.

I'm not repeating that, and that's more legalese than in the NABI contract, and there CTA had to sue. And somehow, riders are supposed to assent to that without having an opportunity (except going on line) to read it? Preposterous.

A parking garage can't get away with that with regard to a waiver of responsibility on the back of a ticket.

And there is nothing there about what fares are deducted.

Also, unless you allow a cookie, it doesn't even load.

OK, jajuan, I know what those terms mean. Tell me that you do.

[jajuan]

I'm not repeating that, and that's more legalese than in the NABI contract, and there CTA had to sue. And somehow, riders are supposed to assent to that without having an opportunity (except going on line) to read it? Preposterous.

A parking garage can't get away with that with regard to a waiver of responsibility on the back of a ticket.

And there is nothing there about what fares are deducted.

Also, unless you allow a cookie, it doesn't even load.

OK, jajuan, I know what those terms mean. Tell me that you do.

Oh so we're going to play the "I know the better than you because I have expertise in one of the issues involved" game? Isn't that something you butted heads more times than can be counted with chicagopcclcar about to the point of currently ignoring his posts? Surprised you want to try that tactic now. Sorry jack, but I'm not going to play that game with you to help feed your CTA is corrupt in everything line of thinking, and I think you know full well I'm not saying just accept any terms blindly hook, line, and sinker. When you're ready to have a discussion without getting hypocritcally condescending by using a tact you took someone else to task and currently ignoring his posts for doing toward you, let me know.

[Busjack]

Oh so we're going to play the "I know the better than you because I have expertise in one of the issues involved" game? Isn't that something you butted heads more times than can be counted with chicagopcclcar about to the point of currently ignoring his posts? Surprised you want to try that tactic now. Sorry jack, but I'm not going to play that game with you to help feed your CTA is corrupt in everything line of thinking, and I think you know full well I'm not saying just accept any terms blindly hook, line, and sinker. When you're ready to have a discussion without getting hypocritcally condescending by using a tact you took someone else to task and currently ignoring his posts for doing toward you, let me know.

So take it out of the condescending. Can you say that you have any idea why someone at CTA had to use all those terms in some agreement just to collect fares? I can't see why, either.

And my point was not to be condescending, but to rebut your very often repeated contention that the average rider is adequately informed about the terms and conditions, not only stuff like "we aren't responsible if you stick the card in a slot," but my main point of what medium will get you there at what fare. You seem to have conceded in the Fare Card Issues thread that maybe it took jtrosario to get the Ventra people to consider how to handle the various child but not student fares.

There are reasons for having Deceptive Trade Practices Acts (although, in this state, only for Lisa Madigan to have a topic for press releases). It isn't for someone to stick a $5 bill in a vending machine and later be told "you should have read first." Especially if the terms are not readily available at the vending machine.

[jajuan]

So take it out of the condescending. Can you say that you have any idea why someone at CTA had to use all those terms in some agreement just to collect fares?

And my point was not to be condescending, but to rebut your very often repeated contention that the average rider is adequately informed about the terms and conditions, not only stuff like "we aren't responsible if you stick the card in a slot," but my main point of what medium will get you there at what fare. You seem to have conceded in the Fare Card Issues thread that maybe it took jtrosario to get the Ventra people to consider how to handle the various child but not student fares.

There are reasons for having Deceptive Trade Practices Acts (although, in this state, only for Lisa Madigan to have a topic for press releases). It isn't for someone to stick a $5 bill in a vending machine and later be told "you should have read first." Especially if the terms are not readily available at the vending machine.

I never said that the average public was completely adequately informed of all the terms. I said they at least had a few tools to at least take some responsibility in becoming better informed than they currently are rather than just endlessly gripe about not liking change to a new system. There is a difference. I think I said several times that if you don't get an adequate response to any question that comes to you, don't just stop where you got lead and then gripe you're being scammed. Keep pressing until you do have a good enough feel for which services you want out of the Ventra system and which you don't. Explain how that becomes 'Oh the public knows everything they need to know'.

[Busjack]

There seems to be a philosophical difference here, exemplified by your "have a good enough feel for which services you want out of the Ventra system and which you don't" comment.

I presume that those who already have a good enough feel for the system already have selected some option for a Chicago Card, Chicago Card Plus, or a pass, and are just getting a replacement card. That seems to what has resulted in various internet comments on "why is CTA spending $450 million for this?"

The vending machines are for sporadic users. If there isn't an "accept user agreement" button before vending the card, and no other disclosure, what is the sporadic user supposed to do before inserting a $5 bill--cross examine the customer assistant until satisfied?

Then you have the one innovation that does count--you can use a bank card without agreeing to any terms. Then, I assume "keep pressing" means protest when you get your bank statement.

CTA has already about said that the $5.00 fare at O'Hare was to soak tourists. Is some tourist really going to think "should I ask the attendant whether to buy a $5.00 ticket and get 2 transfers, or flash my card and find out I got charged $5.00, plus $2.25 for each of the next two rides?"

I'm not talking about conning the frequent rider, or someone who had the option of taking the debit card, but after reading the disclosure, determining they were screwed like most debit card users, and hence cancelling service, but a mandatory means if one wants to ride CTA or Pace. One that apparently isn't being marketed in a straightforward manner.

[jajuan]

There seems to be a philosophical difference here, exemplified by your "have a good enough feel for which services you want out of the Ventra system and which you don't" comment.

I presume that those who already have a good enough feel for the system already have selected some option for a Chicago Card, Chicago Card Plus, or a pass, and are just getting a replacement card. That seems to what has resulted in various internet comments on "why is CTA spending $450 million for this?"

The vending machines are for sporadic users. If there isn't an "accept user agreement" button before vending the card, and no other disclosure, what is the sporadic user supposed to do before inserting a $5 bill--cross examine the customer assistant until satisfied?

Then you have the one innovation that does count--you can use a bank card without agreeing to any terms. Then, I assume "keep pressing" means protest when you get your bank statement.

CTA has already about said that the $5.00 fare at O'Hare was to soak tourists. Is some tourist really going to think "should I ask the attendant whether to buy a $5.00 ticket and get 2 transfers, or flash my card and find out I got charged $5.00, plus $2.25 for each of the next two rides?"

I'm not talking about conning the frequent rider, or someone who had the option of taking the debit card, but after reading the disclosure, determining they were screwed like most debit card users, and hence cancelling service, but a mandatory means if one wants to ride CTA or Pace. One that apparently isn't being marketed in a straightforward manner.

A difference of philosophy and maybe a tad bit of not completely hearing the other. For one, I'm not advocating anyone go signing up for that debit card option whatsoever. I'm focusing only on the transit side of the card. Two when I say keep digging till you find the right fit for you in Ventra on the transit side, I mean don't just accept what a CTA or now in this case Ventra bureaucrat throws at you in some feel good double speak. Ask around among folks outside of either agency who can weed through the extra gobblety gook like we're able to on this forum if necessary. Either way, just taking the position 'Oh I think they're scamming elsewhere so I'm not going to try to find an constructive details here because it's all just a scam here too' isn't of any help to anyone.

[Busjack]

.... Two when I say keep digging till you find the right fit for you in Ventra on the transit side, I mean don't just accept what a CTA or now in this case Ventra bureaucrat throws at you in some feel good double speak. Ask around among folks outside of either agency who can weed through the extra gobblety gook like we're able to on this forum if necessary....

How is that relevant to either the vending machine user or RFID bank card user? Is someone supposed to make 20 calls before flashing their card?

Remember that this chain started when trigger pointed out that a bank card without a "transit account" was no better than cash, as far as bus fares and transfers were concerned, and did not function like a "transit card." And I am assuming that trigger did his research.

[jajuan]

How is that relevant to either the vending machine user or RFID bank card user? Is someone supposed to make 20 calls before flashing their card?

Remember that this chain started when trigger pointed out that a bank card without a "transit account" was no better than cash, as far as bus fares and transfers were concerned, and did not function like a "transit card." And I am assuming that trigger did his research.

Yeah and I think I pointed out that they also mention in that regard that if you designate a set amount on your bankcard or get a card from a vending machine or any Ventra retailer an unregistered transit account is AUTOMATICALLY set up to accommodate riding a bus and/or train with the ability to get transfers. Do you mean to tell me in this age of the internet and smartphones that so frigging hard to do?? Come on give me a break here. I pointed that detail out more than once.

[Busjack]

Yeah and I think I pointed out that they also mention in that regard that if you designate a set amount on your bankcard or get a card from a vending machine or any Ventra retailer an unregistered transit account is AUTOMATICALLY set up to accommodate riding a bus and/or train with the ability to get transfers. Do you mean to tell me in this age of the internet and smartphones that so frigging hard to do?? Come on give me a break here. I pointed that detail out more than once.

You still didn't answer the question, other than the Internet or smarphone comment. Is there anything intuitive about putting a transit account on your preexisting bank card, or shouldn't the bank card have worked by itself? And do you (like someone on the CTA Tattler) assume that everyone has a smart phone and knows where to go and read that obtuse customer agreement before boarding a bus (or the subway at O'Hare)?

At this point, you are proving my point.

[jajuan]

You still didn't answer the question, other than the Internet or smarphone comment. Is there anything intuitive about putting a transit account on your preexisting bank card, or shouldn't the bank card have worked by itself? And do you (like someone on the CTA Tattler) assume that everyone has a smart phone and knows where to go and read that obtuse customer agreement before boarding a bus (or the subway at O'Hare)?

At this point, you are proving my point.

I didn't answer the question because you're now making a circular argument and getting rather anal. Of course a person shouldn't need to make 20 calls to wave their bank card. And if someone doesn't have a smart phone they should still be able to at least get a hold of computer internet access, go to a Ventra retailer or be able to make a phone call to say they want to make x amount of money on their card available for transit. Is it intuitive? Maybe not, but that's how it's set up. How about going to a Ventra session and finding out what the rules are. Or at least try looking at the website where it was surprise, surprise provided and plain and simple regular English. Some may think it shouldn't need to be a training session to know how to pay to ride the bus or train, but since the operator of that train or bus is changing the collection system for those vehicles it still probably makes sense to at least make the attempt to learn how the new system is supposed to work rather than continue to bitch and moan about said system. And about the only thing I've proved is your incessant need to have the CTA corrupt in everything it does.

[Busjack]

I didn't answer the question because you're now making a circular argument and getting rather anal. Of course a person shouldn't need to make 20 calls to wave their bank card. And if someone doesn't have a smart phone they should still be able to at least get a hold of computer internet access, go to a Ventra retailer or be able to make a phone call to say they want to make x amount of money on their card available for transit. Is it intuitive? Maybe not, but that's how it's set up. How about going to a Ventra session and finding out what the rules are. Or at least try looking at the website where it was surprise, surprise provided and plain and simple regular English. Some may think it shouldn't need to be a training session to know how to pay to ride the bus or train, but since the operator of that train or bus is changing the collection system for those vehicles it still probably makes sense to at least make the attempt to learn how the new system is supposed to work rather than continue to bitch and moan about said system. And about the only thing I've proved is your incessant need to have the CTA corrupt in everything it does.

Speaking of circular, you just keep repeating "take a considerable effort to find out first" instead of the only thing that is relevant to my point, i.e. it is deceptive unless the casual user is given the information at the point of sale.

Everything you now say negates that the casual user is given that.

[jajuan]

Speaking of circular, you just keep repeating "take a considerable effort to find out first" instead of the only thing that is relevant to my point, i.e. it is deceptive unless the casual user is given the information at the point of sale.

Everything you now say negates that the casual user is given that.

And I said SEVERAL TIMES OVER THAT ONCE A PERSON BUYS A VENTRA CARD WITH TRANSIT VALUE OR LOADS A SET AMOUNT OF TRANSIT VALUE TO THEIR BANK CARD THEY AUTOMATICALLY HAVE AN UNREGISTERED TRANSIT ACCOUNT ON WHICHEVER CARD IS LOADED TO MAKE TRANSFERS OTHERWISE YES IT IS PAY AS YOU GO FULL FARE EACH TIME THEIR CARD IS TAPPED. And most casual riders I've seen actually stop and ASK what they're paying for under the system that's being replaced and may very well do the same as the transition continues to Ventra so again I'm not going feed your INCESSANT NEED TO FIND CTA CORRUPT IN EVERYTHING IT DOES. And they promised to let you pay to get from A to B with your bank or credit card, They didn't promise upfront transfers otherwise where's the incentive to purchase a transit value or pass onto your card if you're one of those people to give trust enough to use either of those cards in that way?

[Busjack]

I'm done with this. If you think I said anything about CTA corruption, which I did not, there is nothing to which to reply.

I'm really sorry that you are unclear on the concept I stated in bold.

Speaking of unclear on the concept, the cartoon based on that, Mr. Boffo, is relevant today. At one time ATMs did not say that they were taking a fee, now they legally have to have the notice.

[owine]

I received my "your card has been printed" email and they say my Ventra card will arrive in 7-10 days. They did include a username and password for the Ventra website so I checked that out. A bit more user friendly than the old Chicago Card site.

[Kevin]

I received my "your card has been printed" email and they say my Ventra card will arrive in 7-10 days. They did include a username and password for the Ventra website so I checked that out. A bit more user friendly than the old Chicago Card site.

I received this email as well. It may look a bit prettier, but the account management is by far the worse user interface I've seen in a while. The rookie mistakes they've made would almost be hilarious if it wasn't my tax dollars that paid for this mess.

The most concerning aspect is their security practices, or lack thereof. Every time I change my password, they send me an email with that password in plain text saying that it's a temporary password that I requested (huh?). Passwords should always be immediately encrypted and never stored in plain text. No web site should ever be able to provide you with your password.

[MetroShadow]

A rider on the 606 spent the majority of his ride yelling at the customer service representative about his 30-day Pace Pass not cleared on his card after he's already purchased it.

I think, judging from the war stories, the learning curve and adjustment will be problematic. And the Account Management aspect will probably be the worst of them all.

[owine]

I received this email as well. It may look a bit prettier, but the account management is by far the worse user interface I've seen in a while. The rookie mistakes they've made would almost be hilarious if it wasn't my tax dollars that paid for this mess.

The most concerning aspect is their security practices, or lack thereof. Every time I change my password, they send me an email with that password in plain text saying that it's a temporary password that I requested (huh?). Passwords should always be immediately encrypted and never stored in plain text. No web site should ever be able to provide you with your password.

I found the Chicago Card site to be difficult to navigate. I just changed my password and discovered the same thing. That's terrible. It's 2013, even I know you never store passwords unencrypted.

[Busjack]

I found the Chicago Card site to be difficult to navigate. I just changed my password and discovered the same thing. That's terrible. It's 2013, even I know you never store passwords unencrypted.

Basically two points here: if stored unencrypted, the server is subject to hacking. As to Kevin's point, banks or mutual funds only send out messages saying "your password has been changed. Please check that it works, or if you did not authorize this, call customer service." As anyone who has been offered $50,000,000.00 from Benin or gotten spam from someone who claimed they chatted on Facebook, e-mail servers are easily hacked. Wasn't there a report that one service was hacked, but that that service also provided e-mail service to cable company and competitors' mail domains?

[jajuan]

I received this email as well. It may look a bit prettier, but the account management is by far the worse user interface I've seen in a while. The rookie mistakes they've made would almost be hilarious if it wasn't my tax dollars that paid for this mess.

The most concerning aspect is their security practices, or lack thereof. Every time I change my password, they send me an email with that password in plain text saying that it's a temporary password that I requested (huh?). Passwords should always be immediately encrypted and never stored in plain text. No web site should ever be able to provide you with your password.

Not without some form of additional security protocols such as answering some variety of security questions which you set up that are used to verify your identity first. And even then you're strongly advised to reset your password if the site doesn't already prompt you to do so. One tries to give them the benefit of the doubt because this needs to work for people to be able to get around since it will be the sole fare collection system outside of paying cash in the next four months. But these ham handed ways in which they're handling the progression only serves to fuel the impression that they're deliberately trying to fail at this.

[Busjack]

...But these ham handed ways in which they're handling the progression only serves to fuel the impression that they're deliberately trying to fail at this.

Another Tribune article supporting this. Apparently they can instantly dock a credit card, but can't put the value onto a student Ventra card, at least not quick enough for the student to show a balance on the Ventra card when boarding. Apparently, though, it allows the student to board, but logs a negative balance.

[Amtrak41]

All the more reason to not opt to utilize your own Debit card that is equipped with the chip, such as Chase Bank's "Blink" as your Ventra Card. If they screw up, your bank can hit you with a $30 overdrawn fee.

IMHO, they should have just stayed on Chicagocard/Plus and get rid of magnetic fare cards, like WMATA, and leave well enough alone.

[Busjack]

All the more reason to not opt to utilize your own Debit card that is equipped with the chip, such as Chase Bank's "Blink" as your Ventra Card. If they screw up, your bank can hit you with a $30 overdrawn fee.

,,,

I don't see the connection here.

The complaint was that CTA debited whatever means was used to pay for the transit account on the Ventra card, but didn't credit it to the transit account on the Ventra card.

If one uses an RFID card directly, the only risks of an overdraft fee are either you didn't have the money in your bank account, or CTA overcharged you, to the extent of draining your bank account."To the extent of draining your bank account" is pretty unlikely, but I did mention before that the way it is now being represented, you sure will be challenging charges on your monthly statement.

Besides that, due to the new federal regulations, the bank isn't supposed to approve the transaction unless you have agreed to overdraft protection.

[owine]

All the more reason to not opt to utilize your own Debit card that is equipped with the chip, such as Chase Bank's "Blink" as your Ventra Card. If they screw up, your bank can hit you with a $30 overdrawn fee.

IMHO, they should have just stayed on Chicagocard/Plus and get rid of magnetic fare cards, like WMATA, and leave well enough alone.

One of the inherit dangers of using a debit card for any transaction. anywhere...

[jajuan]

All the more reason to not opt to utilize your own Debit card that is equipped with the chip, such as Chase Bank's "Blink" as your Ventra Card. If they screw up, your bank can hit you with a $30 overdrawn fee.

IMHO, they should have just stayed on Chicagocard/Plus and get rid of magnetic fare cards, like WMATA, and leave well enough alone.

Well you'd get hit with an overdrawn fee by your own bank if you had no funds in your bank account period. This is not quite the situation described here. The problem described in the article that Busjack linked was one of parents loading their kids' Ventra style cards and the cards showing zero transit funds even though the Ventra site and the parents' credit cards showed they paid for a certain amount of transit value to go on the cards. So far it seems to be only the kids' cards which of course have no debit card functions having problems. No glitches were reported with adult cards other than reports here and there of nonfunctioning readers on a few buses and that some of the L turnstiles not turning far enough after a tap of the card and those riders getting stuck in the turnstiles.

[Busjack]

... So far it seems to be only the kids' cards which of course have no debit card functions having problems. No glitches were reported with adult cards other than reports here and there of nonfunctioning readers on a few buses and that some of the L turnstiles not turning far enough after a tap of the card and those riders getting stuck in the turnstiles.

I'm not in the back office, but crediting a balance to a card should only depend on the number on the card, and besides the gradual rollout seemed to be student cards first, although if some Chicago Card Plus user got the Ventra card and activated it, it appears they can use it, according to the Press Release.

The other reason only the student cards were mentioned is that the other big rollout was for U-Pass, and obviously a dollar amount is not stored there.